Friendzone is a MYTH

[SW15]

Hate the term 'friend-zone' it's stupid. This condition just means that a chick is not physically attracted to you. She likes you: doesn't want to fvck you.

The term "friend zone" may have been invented by the TV show "Friends" in the mid-1990s.

While "Friends" may have put an actual term to it, the phenomenon was going on before the mid-1990s.

I'd rather be disliked and have her be physically attracted.

Everything starts with the chick... she either wants you or she doesn't... not a fvcking thing in the world you can do to change that. Never fall for a chick if she hasn't fallen for you. If you can't be her 'friend' because you have no emotional self control, then don't do it... walk away and let her bang some other dude. You go find a chick that wants you.

Iron Rule of Tomassi #1

Frame is everything. Always be aware of the subconscious balance of whose frame in which you are operating. Always control the Frame, but resist giving the impression that you are.

Always frame interactions with women around the concept that the friend zone is unacceptable when she's single.

Escaping the so called 'friend-zone' is impossible. You might hang around a chick until something happens in her life causing her to settle for you, but that's the best you can get... and trust me.... you do not want to have a chick in your life that is ONLY settling for you. You could walk away, work on yourself then come back months later and then she is attracted to you. But that is self-improvement and a man should be doing that for themselves and not to get some chick.

All true.

 

[GreatHornedOwl]

Well I disagree with you on this one. I have enough friendzone experiences TO KNOW the sh1t IS REAL. I also know what causes it.......and I'm telling you......being upfront with your interest GREATLY DECREASES your chances of getting friendzoned.

I didn't say you'd automatically get the girl. Just that the hurdle of possibly getting friendzoned would be removed.

I'm not ignoring your other points, but I'm choosing to address this one because it's closest to my original point. You're saying being upfront greatly decreases your chances of getting friendzoned? What are you basing this on? Again, you're making the assumption (like the other poster) that once a certain amount of time has passed, she's no longer interested because you run the risk of falling in that zone. How much time has to go by before this happens? I asked this earlier and never got an answer... from anyone.

But let's look at it from the perspective of "making your intentions known right away". This applies to many men across the world who go out every weekend to the bars trying to get laid. The vast majority of men don't get a ONS this way, or even a date. We all know this. I've been a member on this forum for a very long time. I've read the posts about c0ckblockers, Attention wh0res, flakes, etc. I've been going to bars 15 years and have experienced this myself, and so have my friends. Now in that situation, you don't really have a choice but to be direct. But, that isn't the point. We're not talking about the situation, we're talking about the behavior of being direct.

Look at Tinder. Most guys have to swipe 100 times to get a single match. And the match they get usually doesn't even respond. You're probably thinking "that's because she's talking to the other guy she matched with". Guess what? That guy is thinking the same thing about the first guy.

So if your best chance is to be upfront and direct, why does it result in rejection over and over for most guys?

This usually stems from not knowing the woman. They've never crossed paths with her and unless they jump into action, they will never see her again. It's basically "shoot your shot." And there's nothing wrong with doing that, but it almost always ends in rejection.

If it's one thing I have noticed throughout my life, it's that guys who are "bad" with women, typically don't know any women, and don't have female friends. And because of this, their social calibration is off. It's like the kid who is homeschooled. He doesn't have any classmates, and because of that doesn't know how to properly interact with people.

So the advice they get from the internet is to be bold and direct, to avoid falling in the friendzone. So now you have guys going up to women they don't know, announcing their interest, and putting pressure on a woman who's never met them before, or barely knows them because you think this prevents you from falling in a "zone".

My take on all of this -- Most guys here on unaware they have poor social skills with women, and the advice they get is an attempt to bypass it, which makes them come off too strong and scares the woman away.

 

[Robert28]

A woman isn’t going to Friendzone you the first time you meet her. She doesn’t know you, why would she be like “nah but we can be just friends”? How the friendzone works (at least in my experience) is the girl starts out liking you, but not enough to have sex with you, but just enough to text you all the time and go on dates and invest your time. She might be hot and cold during this time but you don’t think anything of it because she’s still showing SOME interest. Then once you’ve started to get invested she pulls the rug out from under you “sorry I just am not ready for a relationship right now, but we can be friends and I really like you and want to hangout with you and take things slow”. To the non-experienced guy that doesn’t sound like flat out rejection, so he keeps trying. She’s still willing to hangout and let him spend money on her and she still texts him but she’s already placed him in the friendzone and he’s not aware of it yet.
I have no use or need for women friends. In my experience they’re nothing but time wasters and leeches who use your money and resources because “friends”. It has nothing to do with me not being good with women, I’ve just had nothing but bad experiences with women friends and don’t want any at all.

 

[devilkingx2]

There's 4 ways to be friends with a girl:

1. With Benefits - the holy grail, this is the way all bisexual girls are friends with their girl friends.

2. True friends - like you are with your Bros, you share hobbies and interests and give each other advice and help each other out when you need it

3. Gay best friend - you're one of the girls and you get to hear about all the dull girl drama, nonsensical fashion trends, and the cute boys Becky has a crush on. (Note: this can be fun if the girl has actually interesting girl drama and gossip. Like Becky stole $500 from me)

4. The Dreaded Friendzone - she uses you for money/attention/favors, she mostly only talks to you if and when she wants something and otherwise is just humoring you to keep you on the hook or perhaps she wants to get rid. You get absolutely nothing out of it.

Winding up in 3 or 4 is what most refer to as the Friendzone

Winding up in 2 or somewhere between 2 and 3 is what an actual friendship with a girl looks like.

And the goal of pua and redpill advice is to subtly covertly let the girl know that if she intends to be friends with you it'll be on your terms (#1). She'll either next herself or agree or just date you. You win no matter what.

 

[Robert28]

There's 4 ways to be friends with a girl:

1. With Benefits - the holy grail, this is the way all bisexual girls are friends with their girl friends.

2. True friends - like you are with your Bros, you share hobbies and interests and give each other advice and help each other out when you need it

3. Gay best friend - you're one of the girls and you get to hear about all the dull girl drama, nonsensical fashion trends, and the cute boys Becky has a crush on. (Note: this can be fun if the girl has actually interesting girl drama and gossip. Like Becky stole $500 from me)

4. The Dreaded Friendzone - she uses you for money/attention/favors, she mostly only talks to you if and when she wants something and otherwise is just humoring you to keep you on the hook or perhaps she wants to get rid. You get absolutely nothing out of it.

Winding up in 3 or 4 is what most refer to as the Friendzone

Winding up in 2 or somewhere between 2 and 3 is what an actual friendship with a girl looks like.

And the goal of pua and redpill advice is to subtly covertly let the girl know that if she intends to be friends with you it'll be on your terms (#1). She'll either next herself or agree or just date you. You win no matter what.

#5 is just flat out abuse and every girl that does this should suffer in her older years.

 

[Hamurabimbi]

Yup. I messed that up royally with a recent “crush.” She started referring to me (to others) as her “friend” and then started dating this other guy, and the relationship appears pretty solid at this time.

I witnessed it slip through my hands in real time.

 

[SW15]

If it's one thing I have noticed throughout my life, it's that guys who are "bad" with women, typically don't know any women, and don't have female friends. And because of this, their social calibration is off. It's like the kid who is homeschooled. He doesn't have any classmates, and because of that doesn't know how to properly interact with people.

The only men I can think of that wouldn't know any women are men who work either blue collar or STEM jobs. White collar men with business or liberal arts degrees working typical business jobs would at least have some female co-workers.

What about guys with sisters and female cousins? That can help. I know a guy who has had sex with multiple friends of his younger sister. His younger sister has lobbied her friends/acquaintances on his behalf.

 

[Velasco]

Let's assume she was attracted. That means she's emotionally invested

He was her type (attracted/emotionally invested).

This other guy was able to properly raise her emotions, to the point he is now dating her.

And then he showed interest and moved it forward (properly raised her emotions). How guys gets get ONS's from bars to answer your other question.

anytime your emotions are in an elevated state, the other persons typically aren't. Ever wonder why the girl you aren't interested in likes you? It's not because you don't care, or because you aren't interested, it's because your emotions are not in an elevated state

There's girls I talk to that aren't my type at all. For what you say to be true, this means all these type of girls that I do not like, would therefore like me even MORE. Which is false. It's only true if I'm the girl's type in the first place.

Guess what takes away that element of surprise? You broadcasting your interest right away, which is what dating coaches and pickup artists tell you to do. They're inadvertently telling you to confess your emotions, which as I mentioned has no effect on how the woman feels about you

You broadcasting your interest right away let's her feel safe to reciprocate because it's no longer a risk for her to do so. She knows the trying to pick her up.

you're making the assumption (like the other poster) that once a certain amount of time has passed, she's no longer interested because you run the risk of falling in that zone. How much time has to go by before this happens? I asked this earlier and never got an answer... from anyone

This is because there is no universal time frame for her to base her decision on whether or not to still be interested in you ("ok well xyz poster at sosuave said it takes between 3-5 weeks for her to make her decision, so therefore I still got a week left") It's just when she's determined that you are too shy to make a move when she took a risk of putting herself out there, that she decides "ok not this guy."

 

[CAPSLOCK BANDIT]

If you have money and your **** together orbiting is a viable strategy

 

[Robert28]

If you have money and your **** together orbiting is a viable strategy

Yeah a viable strategy to get used lol

 

[zinc4]

Disagree.....

Maybe pickup artists and dating coaches do use warning of the friendzone to motivate guys to take action,but they didn't create it for that purpose. The friendzone was around LONG BEFORE the PUA movement started.

The friendzone IS REAL. I know it is,because I fell in it one,two.....10,000 times before.....in my younger days before I "got" it.

I have a PHD in Friendzonology. NO ONE got friendzoned more than I did. It happened so much,I actually got to the point I could "sense" it starting to happen with a girl before it even came to pass....but I couldn't stop it from happening because I didn't know what I was doing that was causing it. I know NOW....but it was a NIGHTMARE back in my late teens to early 20s.




You DO. Letting a girl know you have interest as soon as possible gives you the BEST CHANCE of making something romantic/sexual happening. There's no NEUTRAL GROUND with a woman as far as HER EMOTIONS/FEELINGS are concerned.
She either sees you in a sexual light....or she don't. She either feels something towards you......or she don't.


Have you ever walked into a room at night? There's two ways you can have darkness in a room.

1: You can turn the light switch off.

Know what the other is? You can walk into a room that's already dark...and simply DO NOTHING.....as in don't flip the switch on.


With a woman,you can TURN HER OFF......either by your words or behavior. Or,you can do NOTHING......as in don't show interest....talk to her as just another person on the planet. If she's at a counter,you walk up,conduct your business,then go on. You didn't turn her off with some attraction-killing words or behavior,but you didn't flirt/compliment/show sexual interest either.

If you come in contact with her MULTIPLE TIMES,over a long period of time....NOT SHOWING INTEREST....she'll get used to you being that way. In essense,you'll get friendzoned by DEFAULT.


This is why when a guy does finally make a move on a chick he's had lots of contact with WITHOUT being sexual or showing some type of interest,you get the "I don't see you THAT WAY".....or "I don't like you LIKE THAT" type comments.


It's not the girl's fault.




Ok,question.....

You say the girl has to have feelings first before the action to work,that you have to get her emotions invested BEFORE being upfront can be effective. Ok......HOW? How do you do this?


I'm in a store....see some cute chick I've never seen before,would like to take her out. I say you have to be upfront about your interest.
You say I have to get her emotionally invested FIRST. How would you suggest this be done? I do KINDA agree with you.





Uhh......true......but......this is kinda OFF TOPIC. I'm going by THE TITLE of this thread. It's not about whether she reciprocates or not. Not about whether she rejects you or not. It's about whether the friendzone is a MYTH or not.....her saying yes or no to a date with you has NO BEARING on that.

And I'm saying being upfront WILL AUTOMATICALLY KILL ANY CHANCES of you getting friendzoned......whether she says yes or no.

If she says yes,you get a date.
If she says no,you move on to the next girl.

Where's the friendzone in that?





ok....uhhh.....kinda too much to unpack here. Maybe some guys do this: I don't know. I just know I DON'T.

MY purpose in being upfront is to IMMEDIATELY present myself as a possible sexual option. See this way,she CAN'T SAY "I don't see you that way" because I presented myself "that way" FROM THE VERY BEGINNING. She knows from the getgo I see her sexually....as a WOMAN. I inserted the idea of HER AND I into her mind. Whether she accepts it or rejects it...that's up to her......but IT'S THERE.




I agree. MY POINT....is that that emotional investment has to have A BEGINNING. It has to start from somewhere.


And while emotional investment TAKES TIME..........a SPARK DOES NOT. A spark can be generated in AN INSTANT........hence,MY PURPOSE in being upfront.




OK.......I think there's a slight distinction that needs to be understood here.....

You said if a woman in a 3 year relationship breaks it off and goes with a new guy,do we think the new guy won her over cause he "spilled his guts" right away to her.

I don't think showing interest in a woman...and "spilling your guts" is the same thing. If I see some random chick I want to talk to,showing my interest just means I find her attractive and want to take her out.........not that I "love" or have deep feelings for her. She knows she's not special,cause I could LITERALLY turn my head,see another girl,and be just as attracted to her or more. She KNOWS that.

"Spilling your guts" suggests FEELINGS. I can't have feelings/an emotional bond towards some chick I just saw for the first time ever. If you approach a girl giving out that type of vibe,you're right.....she'll run for the hills.




Well I disagree with you on this one. I have enough friendzone experiences TO KNOW the sh1t IS REAL. I also know what causes it.......and I'm telling you......being upfront with your interest GREATLY DECREASES your chances of getting friendzoned.

I didn't say you'd automatically get the girl. Just that the hurdle of possibly getting friendzoned would be removed.

Agreed. I always make a move for a kiss first date and a lay if the kiss/4 play is going well. I have noticed that even when a girl rejects it i almost always find success on the second date. Sure some drop off forever but not many. Women like aggressive men. Even if they arent feeling it immediately, if they have any ounce of attraction to you they will go home and start thinking/fantasizing about what if she hadn't rejected your attempt and what it would be like.

As for the friend zone, i know people in it, but i have never had that experience because i always force them to choose very early on to label me as either a potential/immediate lover or a creep in their minds. Weeds out the women who just want to string you along as well.

 

[Igetit!]

I'm not ignoring your other points, but I'm choosing to address this one because it's closest to my original point. You're saying being upfront greatly decreases your chances of getting friendzoned?

Umm....yeah. GREATLY decreases it. But understand something......

Avoiding the friendzone DOES NOT MEAN YOU AUTOMATICALLY GET THE GIRL. You're just avoiding ONE of the many possible roadblocks to getting her. Just because you avoid the friendzone doesn't mean you can't screw things up in another area.

What are you basing this on?

My PERSONAL expierence.

Let's say I see a girl,think she's cute,and want to ask her out. If I'm upfront about that,and she's interested,I have a date.
If she rejects me,I move on to another girl.

THERE'S NO FRIENDZONE THERE. It's averted. I think you think avoiding the friendzone means you GET the girl.

No it doesn't.

Again, you're making the assumption (like the other poster) that once a certain amount of time has passed, she's no longer interested because you run the risk of falling in that zone. How much time has to go by before this happens? I asked this earlier and never got an answer... from anyone.

I have NO IDEA what you're talking about. We're talking about approaching a girl you've NEVER SEEN BEFORE....uhh....right?

Or do you mean seeing a chick,chatting with her from time to time over a period of days/weeks about random topics,then one day,after a few weeks or months of fluff talk,you FINALLY decide to show your interest?

If it's the latter,then yeah....you run a greater risk of getting friendzoned. I know.

But let's look at it from the perspective of "making your intentions known right away". This applies to many men across the world who go out every weekend to the bars trying to get laid. The vast majority of men don't get a ONS this way, or even a date. We all know this.

Sir.......there's a difference here. We need clarification on what "showing interest" means.

I MEAN.......to get a chick to GO OUT with you. That IMPLIES sexual interest.

What are YOU talking about? One night stands? You don't approach a girl at a store,or a chick at a counter to get a one night stand. At least,I don't.

I mean to get her number,call her in 2 or 3 days,set up a date,then go out.......not try to have sex with her 3 or 4 hours after you first meet.

This is REAL LIFE.......not Cinemax.

I've been a member on this forum for a very long time.

Yeah? Well check out MY join date.

I've read the posts about c0ckblockers, Attention wh0res, flakes, etc. I've been going to bars 15 years and have experienced this myself, and so have my friends. Now in that situation, you don't really have a choice but to be direct. But, that isn't the point. We're not talking about the situation, we're talking about the behavior of being direct.

We're talking about being direct? Ok. I thought we were discussing whether the friendzone was a myth or not.

Look at Tinder. Most guys have to swipe 100 times to get a single match. And the match they get usually doesn't even respond.

I'm on Tinder,so yeah.......I know.

You're probably thinking "that's because she's talking to the other guy she matched with". Guess what? That guy is thinking the same thing about the first guy.

True.

So if your best chance is to be upfront and direct, why does it result in rejection over and over for most guys?

Ok......and again.....

I'm talking about AVOIDING THE FRIENDZONE. Sir.....Tinder is A DATING SITE. That's the WHOLE POINT of being on there...even the women know that. If all you said was "Hi" to her in a message,she KNOWS WHY.....it's cause you're expressing interest. If you said hi to a girl in real life,she might just think you were being polite.

I'm saying being upfront in REAL LIFE is your best way to avoid getting friendzoned,and possibly sparking interest.
On Tinder,just your presence ALONE implies you're seeking companionship.

This usually stems from not knowing the woman.

Yeah....that's what we were talking about......right? I'm talking about getting the interest OF STRANGERS......not women you've already spoken to and had contact with.

They've never crossed paths with her and unless they jump into action, they will never see her again. It's basically "shoot your shot." And there's nothing wrong with doing that, but it almost always ends in rejection.

Well,if you know of some other method that doesn't always end in rejection,I'm open to it. Tell me....I'll listen.

So the advice they get from the internet is to be bold and direct, to avoid falling in the friendzone. So now you have guys going up to women they don't know, announcing their interest, and putting pressure on a woman who's never met them before, or barely knows them because you think this prevents you from falling in a "zone".

THIS.......is a GOOD POINT. This is something I had to learn the hard way...the whole "putting women under pressure". You're 100% right on that one. But asking a girl out at ANY POINT can put her under some pressure. I think it's better when you two DON'T KNOW each other. If it's after weeks and weeks of talking and interacting,she may want things to remain as they are between you two and not want to "mess things up" between you and her.

 

[characternote]

Well,if you know of some other method that doesn't always end in rejection,I'm open to it. Tell me....I'll listen.

ahhhh, the old 'get any girl you want' method.

'operant conditioning' is the anwer. Well, not really. But I do like that there's always a few people scattered arond who claim ot have the secret . It was NLP a while back

'' I, personally, like being able to walk up to an NFL cheerleader in Cosmo and be reasonably certain that if she's not busy that night we are gonna go to bed'' ''

https://www.reddit.com/r/datingadviceformen/comments/r4tz0k/_/hmyb9p2

 

[CAPSLOCK BANDIT]

Yeah a viable strategy to get used lol

Well obviously part of that is having the discipline to keep your provisions unallocated or uncommitted, women flirt with potential all their lives, if your leaning into providing at any stage your getting used

 

[Robert28]

Well obviously part of that is having the discipline to keep your provisions unallocated or uncommitted, women flirt with potential all their lives, if your leaning into providing at any stage your getting used

You’re right but you’ve never met a master manipulator too. You aren’t going to outsmart someone that’s perfected their manipulative ways over YEARS. You just aren’t. They didn’t get to be good at what they do by not honing their craft. They’ve perfected it.

 

[devilkingx2]

But let's look at it from the perspective of "making your intentions known right away". This applies to many men across the world who go out every weekend to the bars trying to get laid. The vast majority of men don't get a ONS this way, or even a date. We all know this. I've been a member on this forum for a very long time. I've read the posts about c0ckblockers, Attention wh0res, flakes, etc. I've been going to bars 15 years and have experienced this myself, and so have my friends. Now in that situation, you don't really have a choice but to be direct. But, that isn't the point. We're not talking about the situation, we're talking about the behavior of being direct.

I think the idea is to make your sexual interest known but make her work to get any romantic interest.

If you're not a guy who women want to date or have sex with this won't work, improve yourself.

If she has no sexual interest in you within the time frame you're able to spend talking to her this won't work, next girl.

If she has sexual but not romantic interest, then she'll be down for some fun.

But if she has sexual interest but also wants to date you and make you her boyfriend potentially, she has to gain your other interest somehow as well.

 

[devilkingx2]

My take on all of this -- Most guys here on unaware they have poor social skills with women, and the advice they get is an attempt to bypass it, which makes them come off too strong and scares the woman away.

This is also true. 99% of rules are a stopgap for dudes who don't know what they're doing to stop making an obvious mistake. They're not ironclad and they have complex exceptions when you're more advanced.

If most young inexperienced guys have a problem with being too shy and taking 3 months to ask a girl out and being afraid to say anything sexual then most of them need the advice to show interest immediately and open direct.

Going too far in the opposite direction is part of the process where you learn how to calibrate and find the proper middle ground.

But in theory the idea is that you're better off being too direct and getting a solid rejection from girls who aren't interested than taking a month to find out she has a boyfriend or thinks you're unattractive.

 

[CAPSLOCK BANDIT]

You’re right but you’ve never met a master manipulator too. You aren’t going to outsmart someone that’s perfected their manipulative ways over YEARS. You just aren’t. They didn’t get to be good at what they do by not honing their craft. They’ve perfected it.

No, actually manipulation is very easy to call out when you know what to look for, I've gone into extensive length on manipulation on this forum, or what is alottable since apparently we don't employ manipulation here.

Making yourself unavailable is manipulation, this is why having a purpose is preached here, because when it's authentic it's value not manipulation.

So there is often a different of tangible authenticity when dealing with manipulation, but again, it's easy to recognize and deal with when you know what your looking for

 

[Robert28]

No, actually manipulation is very easy to call out when you know what to look for, I've gone into extensive length on manipulation on this forum, or what is alottable since apparently we don't employ manipulation here.

Making yourself unavailable is manipulation, this is why having a purpose is preached here, because when it's authentic it's value not manipulation.

So there is often a different of tangible authenticity when dealing with manipulation, but again, it's easy to recognize and deal with when you know what your looking for

True but being unavailable is not the only form of manipulation. I don’t call out manipulation anymore, I just walk away and ghost now. At this stage of my life the women I deal with should be grown and mature, if they’re trying to manipulate me into borrowing money, get free dates, etc they’re wasting their time not mine.

 

[Reyaj]

This is a very interesting thread...

In my experience I have found the following..

The friendzone absolutely exists but it's really just a euphemism for non sexual attraction.

For the most part it comes down to physical attraction... She'll know right away if she feels this towards you or not.

If she does feel physical attraction you don't have to necessarily make your intentions known right away but, you do have a window to do it... If you act too asexual during this window she will lose attraction for you over time.

You can be "friends" with a woman and hook up with her eventually but she needs to be attracted to you... I've had this happen with women I've met who were already in relationships. They would say that they were seeing someone but I shook it off and said we could be friends... and I eventually ended up hooking with them. This is because they were attracted to me though and only were trying to act moral/ethical from a conscious level.

I put "friends" in quotes above because I wasn't really interested in being their friend and said it so they would lower their guard while I continued my game. Had I really been their friend I would have respected their relationship and wouldn't have made a move, thus landing in the real friend zone