Thin line between confident aggressive alpha male and a creep who is going too far too fast?

[Sebastian0001]

So, let's say you have gone on a first date with a woman. This was a woman you knew through common friends or an old school/work acquaintance and so its not 100% clear that its indeed a date but you try to make it obvious that its a date. The two of you go to dinner, or perhaps some other form of gonig out somewhere, and afterwards she invites you to come over to her apartment. However, there is no clear signs that she is into you or that she is not into you. This is not necessarily because she wants you to be an orbiter or she is the manipulative attention type but perhaps just is 50-50 in her interest for you. Which of the three options blow do you proceed with and are there any alternate options that I am missing that could also be applied here?

(1) Non-aggressive

You try to escalate but, because there is no positive response, you decide to just stop and leave her apartment early. You do this, because by the end of the night with the invite to her apartment taken into account, she is still giving mixed signals and you conclude it is not worth your time. You think its best to move on to the next girl and refuse to further play this confusing dance with this confusing woman.

The pros of this approach is you exit early and don't waste your time. The cons of this approach is you don't know if you just simply needed to be a bit more persistent and more aggressive and the damn would have eventually broken.

(2) Medium aggressive
You keep escalating touch until you get a green light to go for the kiss. You touch her lower back when entering the apartment, you move her hair strand out of her face, you put your hand on her thigh, you voluntarily give a shoulder massage, etc. And, even though there is still no clear response from her (she is not signaling readiness for physical escalation to kiss but also not signaling you to stop), you keep escalating as far as she is willing to allow, then pause when there are signs of resistance, and then once again start trying again until she eventually gives in because you interpret her reactions as anti-slut behavior and that its only a matter of time until she allows for the kiss.

The pros of this approach is you are escalating at a pace that she is comfortable with and are removing her anti-slut defense. The cons of this approach is that she might just never allow the kiss and further moves which then forces you to go with approach 1 and bail.

(3) Aggressive aggressive
You find an excuse to grab her wrist/hand (i.e. maybe you ask her to dance to a song) and then you spin her around and then aggressively (but not forcefully) push her against the wall in a soft manner until your eyes are face to face and noses touching. At this point, her hand is forced and she must either allow or not allow the kiss and more to happen or not happen.

The pros of this approach is, depending on the woman, she might be super turned on by the confidence and alpha behavior. The cons of this approach is that it could be considered borderline sexual assault in today's world even though it was the woman who invited the guy to her place in a 1on1 evening situation after a date-like evening.

 

[Romanemp22]

Considering she invited me over I assume she's willing to do something and have comfort zone not to high up. I would escalate pretty quickly and if she refuse first time in a span of 15 minutes she would not refuse it most likely.

It really depends from girl to girl, some will like escalation on firts time while some will be turned off if you came on to strong. It's your job to read in the sings and ofcourse to proceed tactically (first slithly touching, having your arms around her back, kiss etc.)

 

[bat soup]

So, let's say you have gone on a first date with a woman. This was a woman you knew through common friends or an old school/work acquaintance and so its not 100% clear that its indeed a date but you try to make it obvious that its a date. The two of you go to dinner, or perhaps some other form of gonig out somewhere, and afterwards she invites you to come over to her apartment. However, there is no clear signs that she is into you or that she is not into you. This is not necessarily because she wants you to be an orbiter or she is the manipulative attention type but perhaps just is 50-50 in her interest for you. Which of the three options blow do you proceed with and are there any alternate options that I am missing that could also be applied here?

(1) Non-aggressive

You try to escalate but, because there is no positive response, you decide to just stop and leave her apartment early. You do this, because by the end of the night with the invite to her apartment taken into account, she is still giving mixed signals and you conclude it is not worth your time. You think its best to move on to the next girl and refuse to further play this confusing dance with this confusing woman.

The pros of this approach is you exit early and don't waste your time. The cons of this approach is you don't know if you just simply needed to be a bit more persistent and more aggressive and the damn would have eventually broken.

(2) Medium aggressive
You keep escalating touch until you get a green light to go for the kiss. You touch her lower back when entering the apartment, you move her hair strand out of her face, you put your hand on her thigh, you voluntarily give a shoulder massage, etc. And, even though there is still no clear response from her (she is not signaling readiness for physical escalation to kiss but also not signaling you to stop), you keep escalating as far as she is willing to allow, then pause when there are signs of resistance, and then once again start trying again until she eventually gives in because you interpret her reactions as anti-slut behavior and that its only a matter of time until she allows for the kiss.

The pros of this approach is you are escalating at a pace that she is comfortable with and are removing her anti-slut defense. The cons of this approach is that she might just never allow the kiss and further moves which then forces you to go with approach 1 and bail.

(3) Aggressive aggressive
You find an excuse to grab her wrist/hand (i.e. maybe you ask her to dance to a song) and then you spin her around and then aggressively (but not forcefully) push her against the wall in a soft manner until your eyes are face to face and noses touching. At this point, her hand is forced and she must either allow or not allow the kiss and more to happen or not happen.

The pros of this approach is, depending on the woman, she might be super turned on by the confidence and alpha behavior. The cons of this approach is that it could be considered borderline sexual assault in today's world even though it was the woman who invited the guy to her place in a 1on1 evening situation after a date-like evening.

You need to do enough to find out whether or not she is interested. There's no point being so timid that you don't find out what you want to know. On the other hand, you shouldn't do anything that could get you into trouble if it turns out to be unwanted.

What I would do first is sit or stand close to her and see if she moves away. If not, I would start touching casually at first and then more intimately. That gives her the opportunity to move away if she wants and if she doesn't, then I know that she likes it and wants more.

 

[Bingo-Player]

So, let's say you have gone on a first date with a woman. This was a woman you knew through common friends or an old school/work acquaintance and so its not 100% clear that its indeed a date but you try to make it obvious that its a date. The two of you go to dinner, or perhaps some other form of gonig out somewhere, and afterwards she invites you to come over to her apartment. However, there is no clear signs that she is into you or that she is not into you. This is not necessarily because she wants you to be an orbiter or she is the manipulative attention type but perhaps just is 50-50 in her interest for you.

Generally 99% of females will be perfectly aware that if invited out by a male that is not immediate family
then they are on a date

they aren't stupid

Similarly a female that invites you back to her place will be aware sex will be a high probability

again they aren't stupid

what you call the "aggressive" behaviour is the only behaviour that will get her turned on enough too let you sleep with her

You don't need to be aggressive though just direct enough with your intentions so that she knows you are going to fvck her ......women like to be lead their only job in facilitating sex is too submiss to you

some years ago i made the critical mistake of thinking being respectful and a gentleman would put me in a better light

Shock horror it doesn't

What you need to be do is Touch her , talk about any kinks you have ,feel her A$$ , ask her to show you her t1ts , touch her some more , kiss her , play with her

All these actions will make her melt .......again if she's not allowing you then she's not submissing and probably not that interested so you can save yourself some time and quickly move onto the next


* disclaimer very few women will ever openly admit this especially at the initial stages of meeting you and if you both get caught by others she will try to quickly protect herself by labelling you a "creep" and claiming its not what she wants even though 10 mins ago she was telling you her pu$$y is wet *

Women always have 2 personas constantly at play the good girl who pretends to play
by societal rules , and the wh0re that just wants to fvck

 

[Woujo]

Here is my take on it (this is a draft of stuff from my new book):

It is impossible to ever truly know exactly how much a woman is emotionally invested and therefore how much escalation she is ready for. Most guys are afraid to escalate because they fear they will overshoot the mark and the woman will run away screaming. You are not a mind reader and women are good at hiding their emotions and desires, so sometimes you just need to go for it and then pull back if you went too far. To know how much to escalate, you have three options: 1) guess at the appropriate level of escalation from the context of the situation, 2) read her body language, facial expression, and words, and 3) If you have no idea, just ****ing go for it.


Your first clue is context. For example, if you are at a bar or nightclub, it is perfectly appropriate to tell women they are hot. Women evolved to want to feel hot and desired, so almost all women appreciate a man calling them hot, even a man they would not want to ****. And they obviously put the effort into looking awesome so men would think they are hot. Calling a woman hot only becomes “needy” or “creepy” or “putting her on a pedestal” when you keep pressing the issue and make clear that you are going to annoy her until she puts out. Similarly, if you are on a “date” with a woman, it is perfectly acceptable to show some degree of sexual interest. If you are on a date and you casually say “I am attracted to you” and she does not like it, that means the woman was not into you any damn way.


You can also determine her level of readiness by reading her body language and words. If she is staring deeply into your eyes, playing with her hair, and licking her lips, she is ready to be kissed. If, on the other hand, she is playing with her phone, looking around, or crossing her arms, maybe not. Similarly, if you have been fingering her for 20 minutes, she is probably ready for the ****. Learning how to read women is a skill, and nobody is perfect at it, but you will eventually get better with practice.



Women generally become ready to **** after they have been touching you for a prolonged period of time and feel completely comfortable letting you take the lead. As discussed earlier, women want to turn off their rational minds and “give” themselves to you, so if a woman is fighting your leadership, focusing her attention on other things, and going her own way she is probably not ready to come home with me. I can usually tell a woman is ready to go home when she completely relaxes her body and seems ready to do almost anything I tell her to. At dinner a woman will often slump into her chair and put her feet up, get a silly grin on her face, and become completely relaxed.

And finally, sometimes you just need to ****ing go for it. Again, women don’t get mad at you for escalating or trying to **** them, they get mad when you act creepy and don’t take no for an answer. If you take a shot, she says no, and you immediately pull back without continuing to pressure her, she will appreciate the effort and feel more comfortable saying yes the next time. In fact, it is often good to get at least one “no” so she sees that you can take no for an answer.

 

[3agle 3yes]

As far as I'm concerned, if I orchestrate a situation where we’re alone together at either her place or mine, it's on.

The irony of your scenarios is that your “aggressive aggressive” isn’t aggressive at all.

You can be “indirectly direct” as I call it.

You invite her to your place (or she invited you to hers, as in your example), where you know you'll be alone together. This is “indirectly direct”, because for all she knows maybe you want to show her your stamp collection.

In your “aggressive aggressive” example, you touch her because you want to “dance”. This is “indirectly direct”, because for all she knows you just want to dance.

Another example, is I never go out on “dates” with women, it's too direct for me. Instead, I tell her “lets meet up for half an hour for Y, I’m going to go to X place at Z time. If you act weird, I'll probably leave sooner.”

Depending on the situation I might even say “Just so you know, this isn’t a date, so don't act like it.”

I'm telling her we'll meet for only half an hour and it's not a date to put her at ease and reduce the chance of her flaking. Even though technically it is a date and if we like each others company I’ll “cancel” my other plans. Again “Indirectly direct”.

So, in a nutshell, my ACTIONS are direct, but my verbal communication is indirect.

This way, you can gauge her behaviour and move on from there. More importantly, you allow her to anticipate what's going to happen next, which women LOVE.

 

[oldmanofthesea]

Basically #2 but there are two things with your hypothetical situation that are a bit off.

The first is that no woman is going to invite you over to her place 1:1 without knowing there is romantic intent unless she is on the autism spectrum or something. Inviting a guy over (or accepting his invite over to his place) is a major form of compliance and comfort and women know that this is one of the last gestures they make before sex happens. A woman is not going to do this unless she is strongly considering sex, or definitely wanting it. Even once in the house, you can still blow it by not escalating properly or doing something that turns her off, or she may leave before sex just to build the sexual energy and anticipation a little more but the point is, you are right on the edge.

The second is your comment about her providing "no signs" in response to your advances. I've literally never experienced this through the course of an entire date. First of all, not providing a NEGATIVE reaction to your touching/advances is a sign in of itself. If you touch her on the small of the back and she acts like it isn't happening, I interpret that as good. Better would be a warm response to it, but good is no response. If she pulls away or moves your hand away, that's a negative response. Just because you get a negative response doesn't mean you don't wait a little while and try again. But if the negative responses don't start turning into neutral responses and the neutral responses don't start turning into positive responses, then she isn't feeling it or isn't ready or is just plain weird. At that point it is your decision on whether or not to leave early; you must decide how much of your time and energy you're going to invest in a girl who is either not attracted to you, or is attracted but is deliberately holding back hard. If it is the latter, you may be able to ultimately break through but ask yourself what the possible implications of that are? If you just want to sleep with her then it's too much work for a low chance of payoff. If you are evaluating her for an LTR, what do you think she would be like in an LTR if she holds back on things like this and how else do you think that behavior would manifest itself in a relationship? Most likely it would manifest itself as a lot of control, no compliance, and possibly boring and/or limited sex (most girls are 10x more sexual than most men think but there are some girls who just aren't very sexual at all).

#3 is fine to do, but I don't personally do this out of the blue with no prior warming up and reading of signs. If you are getting positive responses to some of your other less aggressive/erotic escalations, then you can take the next step such as you described in #3. But I personally would want to see a flirty and receptive vibe from her first. Lots of smiling and eye contact, etc. I will say though, that that's my own personal approach, and some women may love a guy who makes a move like this somewhat out of the blue and it may be what she needs to get really turned on and decide to be receptive. It is more risky though, and I just haven't felt the need to take that risk because I escalate as described above, it works well, and there's no chance of a me-too moment (well, the chance is always there but realistically if you operate as I suggest, you are doing as much as you can to avoid it). I do think the vast majority of men who aren't having good success with women are overly worried about me-too and this is part of what is preventing them from having more success with women. Societal brainwashing about women being princesses and not really like sex or feeling that sex is only there to be used as a component for a deep emotional connection or that women don't like aggressiveness and dominance has caused a lot of problems for countless men.

 

[2Rocky]

I've been on dates I didn't realize were dates a few times (stupid me). In all cases we ended up at her house at her invitation, alone.

One invited me over to cook me dinner.
One asked me to help her pick up a freezer during the middle of the day when her kids were in school. The house tour ended in the bedroom.
One asked me to accompany her with another couple to a barrel tasting event and bought our dinner.
One asked me to walk her home from the bar and was giving me a back massage with the lights down low.

In order to take advantage of a positive situation , you need to precede the arrival at her place with plenty of kino. Hugging, walking arm in arm, high fives, eye contact , arm around her waist, dancing etc...

First kiss should be in the "Finally Alone" moment. I don't recommend a full on French kiss with tongue, but it should be a one second kiss, not a peck. This is basically her green light to escalate herself. This is where you will see any hesitancy on her part.

That's the best way I can explain it.

 

[Sebastian0001]

As far as I'm concerned, if I orchestrate a situation where we’re alone together at either her place or mine, it's on.

The irony of your scenarios is that your “aggressive aggressive” isn’t aggressive at all.

You can be “indirectly direct” as I call it.

You invite her to your place (or she invited you to hers, as in your example), where you know you'll be alone together. This is “indirectly direct”, because for all she knows maybe you want to show her your stamp collection.

In your “aggressive aggressive” example, you touch her because you want to “dance”. This is “indirectly direct”, because for all she knows you just want to dance.

Another example, is I never go out on “dates” with women, it's too direct for me. Instead, I tell her “lets meet up for half an hour for Y, I’m going to go to X place at Z time. If you act weird, I'll probably leave sooner.”

Depending on the situation I might even say “Just so you know, this isn’t a date, so don't act like it.”

I'm telling her we'll meet for only half an hour and it's not a date to put her at ease and reduce the chance of her flaking. Even though technically it is a date and if we like each others company I’ll “cancel” my other plans. Again “Indirectly direct”.

So, in a nutshell, my ACTIONS are direct, but my verbal communication is indirect.

This way, you can gauge her behaviour and move on from there. More importantly, you allow her to anticipate what's going to happen next, which women LOVE.

Really? I would never tell her "this is not a date" - that seems like you are signaling you want friendship or something.

If you were in a situation where you are 1on1 with a girl in her apartment at night and she is giving no response (not negative, not positive) to escalation, what kind of things would you do that are "indirectly direct" since you say what I listed is not really aggressive? What would you do specifically from the moment you get there into her apartment to get it to physical?

 

[3agle 3yes]

Really? I would never tell her "this is not a date" - that seems like you are signaling you want friendship or something.

Perhaps I didn't explain myself properly.

Yes, telling her this is not date could sound like I want friendship or something. But it's also telling her I don’t want anything (sex) from her also.

If a woman thinks she's on date she's more likely to flake, also, she’ll be in “courting mode”, meaning she’ll expect you to do things to “impress” her, while she sits back and relaxes.

Think about it, 9/10 dates (or maybe even 10/10 dates) she has with guys play out this way.

Remember what I also said:

So, in a nutshell, my ACTIONS are direct, but my verbal communication is indirect.

I’m telling her it's not a date, but when I'm with her, I'm flirting like hell.

TELL her things to put her on the back foot, and not raise any inquiry. But your behaviour should be different.

If you were in a situation where you are 1on1 with a girl in her apartment at night and she is giving no response (not negative, not positive) to escalation, what kind of things would you do that are "indirectly direct" since you say what I listed is not really aggressive? What would you do specifically from the moment you get there into her apartment to get it to physical?

You said it yourself, find a way to touch her that isn’t directly sexual.

One move I'll often do is take her phone and start reading her messages, in the hope that’ll she try to get it back. She can’t do this without touching me. Then I'll transition this into a playfight.

I'll overpower her and pin her on the bed.

On the surface, we’re just goofing around. But of course, this isn’t what's ACTUALLY happening. And she’ll definitely not be thinking that we’re goofing around.

Sometimes, I'll stop talking and just look at her.

Other times I'll tease her mercilessly about something she said to provoke a reaction.

Most guys aren’t subtle enough, it's the subtext that matters.