Is omission deception?

[gettinit]

I tried to keep this short, but its a bit complicated and may be more of a venting rant. Read on at your own peril.

I was good friends with a woman (not friendzone friends) for a couple of years and about five months ago, we crossed the line to more than friends. I told her that we can just see where it goes. It got to a point where we saw each other two or three times a week, we did a lot of stuff together and I let go of the others that I was dating. She initiated as much or more than I did. Bought me things, paid for some dates, made future plans. All looking good. Honestly, I did have a bit of oneitis going, but being self aware, I tried to keep it in check. No nice guy BS and I always made my boundaries clear. I felt some feelings creeping in. Out of the blue, she tells me that she decided to move away so, in my mind, it was exit time. Although it might hurt, there is no point in dragging things out. Been there, done that.

Due to how we always seem to talk things out no matter how bad a disagreement, after she told me that she was moving and wanted to remain friends, I just wanted a clean break without the long discussion that may sway my decision and slow my moving on, but I was still on the fence. A few days later, while discussing her moving away, she mentioned that her ex from a year and a half ago "pried" the place that she was moving to from her after showing up at her place. I had no idea that they were still in contact at all and the last mention of him was that he called her last year and she wished that he would leave her alone. She then told me that he occasionally shows up, calls and sends messages with love songs and plays with her emotions. Plays with her emotions? I asked if there were residual feelings and got a yes. WTF?

The next day, I dropped a box of her stuff at her door and to just break thing cleanly and leave things fairly neutral, I left a short note that remaining friends won't work for me. I told her that she shouldn't have started anything with me if the last relationship wasn't done with and if that was the case, she wasn't in a position to have a healthy relationship with anyone. Had I known, I wouldn't have let things progress like they did or date her at all. I need a clean break to clear my head. She should have and should do the same. I wished her well and that was that.

A few hours later, I get a text that in part said that she disagreed with some things that I said and only wanted to remain friends so that it wasn't awkward when she came back to visit, but would respect my decision.

Low and behold, 3 weeks later, a text from her regarding something that I had given her a while ago that she was enjoying and a "hope all is good with you". So much for respecting my decision. I didn't respond.

So, last night, I'm at a place I frequent and I'm the last one there near closing time, taking with the bartender who is also a friend of mine. Guess who walks in. Then the discussion that I wanted to avoid happened. She couldn't get over that I didn't respond to her "friendly text" and didn't understand why we couldn't still hang out as friends. That we have a deep connection and I know her better than anyone.. bla, bla, bla. I told her that she was moving so there isn't any point. I repeated what I had written and added that if I still had feelings for an ex, I would never get involved and risk hurting someone that I cared at all about. Its just selfish and I felt f*cked with. I delivered all of this calmly and in a matter of fact tone.

Her response?
We never "actually" committed to being exclusive so it's none of my business if she still has feelings for her ex and who she sees. She said that since I never asked, she wasn't being dishonest.

Interesting justification and I would agree if we had recently met and casually dating vs knowing each other for years and her always talking about honesty and transparency. Umm.. when you are told something was over a year and a half ago and someone is never mentioned, should I have had to ask?
I told her that with her acting more and more like we were exclusive without any hint of anything otherwise for months, omission was dishonest. Being how things were previously appeared to be progressing, that little piece of info was my business.

They were my last words. I grabbed my stuff, thanked my bartender buddy and went on my way.

I'm now so glad that this ended sooner than later and her moving becoming a blessing in disguise. Although this interaction definitely set me back a bit mentally, it also stripped away a few shiny things and gave me some fresh clarity. Its all about her. Nothing new, but some apparently hide that better than others. I'm not looking for advice and I guess this is more of a (fail) field report.

Time to finish clearing my head and move forward!

A last thought. Maybe there should be a forum category for Post Mortems. There is probably more to be learned from fails.

 

[Paper Crane]

Breh, I gotta tell you right away that I FEEL for you dawg... But ultimately, and this is going to hurt--- she was RIGHT. You guys never had anything more than a friendship. You got involved with her and that's a cardinal rule you don't break with friends. because sht can get weird. and absolutely never try to change a friendship that for many years was not romantic.. A girl will rarely fall for you in that situation unless she always had a secret crush on you.. But if you're well established as friends, I mean for years.. Getting involved intimately ultimately leads to situations like this one.

If a girl only thinks of you as a friend.. for years and you didn't change that within weeks of knowing her, you probably are just af riend to her an always will be that way, even if she chooses to sleep with you after rebounding from a bad breakup or something.

Edit: you honestly will probably regret losing her as a friend if you guys really were good friends for so long.. so think hard about whether you want to just cut her off completely

 

[dasein]

So your wishes mean so little to her that she stalks to a bar you hang out and argues with you in favor of her wishes alone? Good riddance.

Whether you were or not exclusive, she should have respected your wishes and also the ex connection is fishy and monkey branchy. It's very plain that the relationship had transitioned to more than just a FWB (box of her stuff at your house for example and your foreclosing options) regardless of the terminology, so I disagree respectfully with the poster above.

 

[bat soup]

I tried to keep this short, but its a bit complicated and may be more of a venting rant. Read on at your own peril.

I was good friends with a woman (not friendzone friends) for a couple of years and about five months ago, we crossed the line to more than friends. I told her that we can just see where it goes. It got to a point where we saw each other two or three times a week, we did a lot of stuff together and I let go of the others that I was dating. She initiated as much or more than I did. Bought me things, paid for some dates, made future plans. All looking good. Honestly, I did have a bit of oneitis going, but being self aware, I tried to keep it in check. No nice guy BS and I always made my boundaries clear. I felt some feelings creeping in. Out of the blue, she tells me that she decided to move away so, in my mind, it was exit time. Although it might hurt, there is no point in dragging things out. Been there, done that.

Due to how we always seem to talk things out no matter how bad a disagreement, after she told me that she was moving and wanted to remain friends, I just wanted a clean break without the long discussion that may sway my decision and slow my moving on, but I was still on the fence. A few days later, while discussing her moving away, she mentioned that her ex from a year and a half ago "pried" the place that she was moving to from her after showing up at her place. I had no idea that they were still in contact at all and the last mention of him was that he called her last year and she wished that he would leave her alone. She then told me that he occasionally shows up, calls and sends messages with love songs and plays with her emotions. Plays with her emotions? I asked if there were residual feelings and got a yes. WTF?

The next day, I dropped a box of her stuff at her door and to just break thing cleanly and leave things fairly neutral, I left a short note that remaining friends won't work for me. I told her that she shouldn't have started anything with me if the last relationship wasn't done with and if that was the case, she wasn't in a position to have a healthy relationship with anyone. Had I known, I wouldn't have let things progress like they did or date her at all. I need a clean break to clear my head. She should have and should do the same. I wished her well and that was that.

A few hours later, I get a text that in part said that she disagreed with some things that I said and only wanted to remain friends so that it wasn't awkward when she came back to visit, but would respect my decision.

Low and behold, 3 weeks later, a text from her regarding something that I had given her a while ago that she was enjoying and a "hope all is good with you". So much for respecting my decision. I didn't respond.

So, last night, I'm at a place I frequent and I'm the last one there near closing time, taking with the bartender who is also a friend of mine. Guess who walks in. Then the discussion that I wanted to avoid happened. She couldn't get over that I didn't respond to her "friendly text" and didn't understand why we couldn't still hang out as friends. That we have a deep connection and I know her better than anyone.. bla, bla, bla. I told her that she was moving so there isn't any point. I repeated what I had written and added that if I still had feelings for an ex, I would never get involved and risk hurting someone that I cared at all about. Its just selfish and I felt f*cked with. I delivered all of this calmly and in a matter of fact tone.

Her response?
We never "actually" committed to being exclusive so it's none of my business if she still has feelings for her ex and who she sees. She said that since I never asked, she wasn't being dishonest.

Interesting justification and I would agree if we had recently met and casually dating vs knowing each other for years and her always talking about honesty and transparency. Umm.. when you are told something was over a year and a half ago and someone is never mentioned, should I have had to ask?
I told her that with her acting more and more like we were exclusive without any hint of anything otherwise for months, omission was dishonest. Being how things were previously appeared to be progressing, that little piece of info was my business.

They were my last words. I grabbed my stuff, thanked my bartender buddy and went on my way.

I'm now so glad that this ended sooner than later and her moving becoming a blessing in disguise. Although this interaction definitely set me back a bit mentally, it also stripped away a few shiny things and gave me some fresh clarity. Its all about her. Nothing new, but some apparently hide that better than others. I'm not looking for advice and I guess this is more of a (fail) field report.

Time to finish clearing my head and move forward!

A last thought. Maybe there should be a forum category for Post Mortems. There is probably more to be learned from fails.

You just have to stop engaging and giving any attention at all to women that want to put you in the friendzone. Personally, I just totally lose interest in even talking to them.

Regarding the "strong connection" and all of that, I specifically want to avoid having any kind of connection with a woman that is not on the same page as me. I'm not interested in being best buddies or having great conversations or any of that with women. Often what the deal is there is that she's feeding her ego by talking to you and loving it, which is why she keeps coming back for more, whilst you get nothing but wasted time and frustration.

Sometimes its easier to do a slow fade rather than to have a big conversation about it (which in itself is giving her attention). You can reply eventually when you get the time but make no effort to keep the conversation going. Treat them like the low priority that they are. This way they don't get the ego boost they crave and end up going elsewhere for attention.

 

[TheKid]

I read a book about the morals and ethics of lying and it stated that anything other then the outright truth was a lie.

 

[GreatHornedOwl]

You guys dated for 5 months and she never brought up the "what are we" talk? That's a long time for a woman to go without trying to pin a guy down.

Regardless, if you're seeing someone 2-3 times week for 5 months, that's a relationship.

And I agree, there was no reason for you to believe the ex was still in the picture, so why would she expect you to ask about someone that you didn't even know was there? And she decides to mention it when you guys are calling it off and she's above to move? A little late for that. You told her it hurt you and her response was "It's none of your business."

Then showing up at the bar you're at to have a conversation she knew you didn't want to have?

To me, it sounds like you were dealing with a very self-centered woman. I'm curious, since you knew her for years, how did she treat the people around her?

 

[Fruitbat]

A lie by omission is still a lie.

Try telling a court that it was ok not to mention a relevant obvious fact to a case that you just weren’t asked directly on!

 

[Black Widow Void]

My guess is that despite being dumped, the other guy has been pining away for her. If she was into him, she wouldn't have dropped him in the first place..... nor after her return, would she be texting or stalking you. Sounds like this guy is a chump and she is an operator.

You made a good call and also setting boundaries as you did.. I'm sure she realizes that you are more of a man than her safety-net man will ever be.

It sure would suck for her... if she quit her job, had everything packed for the move and the day before... this guy *also* became privy to her omissions (you can be certain that he's also been deceived).

If the shoe were on the other foot, you'd have balls and backbone to send her back where she came. Something tells me that this other guy is too weak to take a stand. He may provide her with some foundation or temporary familiarity, but she's not going to be happy or respect him.

You may not see it now, but this dude has done you a favor. He has now taken custody of your headache, and she will be miserable because there's no way that she can respect him. Meanwhile, you are now free to meet someone of better quality. She will also realize this and it will eat her up more than you could possibly know.

 

[Tilex]

The only way you could be good friends with women is if you work with them.
In a structured work environment you both have to abide by the same set of rules.
Going above these rules could result in termination for either one of you or both of you.
Hence the reasons why people bond with colleagues.

Outside the work environment you play by your own rules.
You can't be friends with a woman and not be placed in the friend zone.
After all, she's the one that placed you there.

 

[gettinit]

A bit of a twisted update:

Turns out that her ex wasn't all of it. There is another dude in the picture and from what I was told, its been going on since a few weeks prior to our break up. She already knew that she was moving, so she is wasting his time as well. I have to guess that her texting me and tracking me down was just a validation seeking thing since I had just walked away. Nothing more. I'm also betting that the other guy had no idea that I existed. Although its obviously better that this ended, its funny how messed up my head has gotten with this news. Ego hits are tough. At least I have been down the road enough times that I know that it's just temporary.

 

[gettinit]

As far as it being a relationship, get this: When we crossed the line, I was being a bit aggressive and she told me that kissing is a big deal for her. I said really? She said that we would be exclusive for that to happen. I backed off to see what would happen. Two weeks later, we have a moment and kiss. By her own statement, she was all mine right there ( I didn't put stock in it). At the end, 5 months later, as I stated before, she said that we didn't have the exclusive conversation.

She was deceptive but they are virtually always in a state of rebound so its just part of the game.

Always in a state of rebound fits here. My friend who filled me in on other things clarified that she met the guy she is dating a few weeks before we broke it off, but stated dating a few days after I dropped her. I'm getting the impression that she has now passed the rebound torch to our relationship and dating to ease her mind and get some validation. When we had the unwanted conversation and after hitting me me with the connection/I know her best, she asked why I had to just end it instead of letting things slowly fade by seeing each other less and less. Again, self centered and wanting me to ease her mind at the expense of mine.

My rational side says, don't worry and forget about her. Unfortunately, when you form a bond with someone and spend so much time together, its tough to just erase it.

 

[Lookatu]

I see this as an fwb situation and nothing more. OP got too invested and too early(his mistake).

Also know that anything that comes out of someone's mouth on plate status should be taken with a grain of salt.

Bottom Line: You my friend, invested too much, too early and had high expectations without any justification and pedestalized her foolishly and promoted her past a plate status which she didn't earn yet.

 

[gettinit]

Bottom Line: You my friend, invested too much, too early and had high expectations without any justification and pedestalized her foolishly and promoted her past a plate status which she didn't earn yet

I'm not sure how you are coming to this conclusion from the info I have provided here. It was actually a pretty awesome relationship (in appearance anyway) until she decided to move.

I think you did. Her "own" statements never matter. Let's beat that into our heads.

Absolutely true. That is why I posted that. I waited to see if actions backed it up. Interestingly, they did and I have to say, it was some fun months. Unfortunately, still all an illusion in the end and I'm pretty confident, a rebound.

 

[GreatHornedOwl]

I'm not sure how you are coming to this conclusion from the info I have provided here. It was actually a pretty awesome relationship (in appearance anyway) until she decided to move.



Absolutely true. That is why I posted that. I waited to see if actions backed it up. Interestingly, they did and I have to say, it was some fun months. Unfortunately, still all an illusion in the end and I'm pretty confident, a rebound.

Don't listen to some of these guys. I would have felt played, and so would they. It's easy for them to say you got too invested, when they weren't in the situation.

 

[Lookatu]

I'm not sure how you are coming to this conclusion from the info I have provided here. It was actually a pretty awesome relationship (in appearance anyway) until she decided to move.

In YOUR eyes it was an "awesome relationship". Everything you wrote about was about you, you, you. You were only looking at it from your perspective, not hers.

Let's break down some key words, YOU wrote about:

about five months ago, we crossed the line to more than friends. I told her that we can just see where it goes. It got to a point where we saw each other two or three times a week, we did a lot of stuff together and I let go of the others that I was dating. She initiated as much or more than I did. Bought me things, paid for some dates, made future plans. All looking good. Honestly, I did have a bit of oneitis going, but being self aware, I tried to keep it in check. No nice guy BS and I always made my boundaries clear. I felt some feelings creeping in. Out of the blue, she tells me that she decided to move away so, in my mind, it was exit time. Although it might hurt, there is no point in dragging things out. Been there, done that.

You told her you guys can see where it goes(play it by ear). In no where did you write she discussed any of her feelings, plans, or bf/exclusive proposition with you.

You let go of others that you were dating. Rookie move when there was no exclusivity talk to begin with. This is where you began to invest too much too soon.

You admitted to having oneitis and feelings and if those were merely one sided, you have already lost.

Everything was about you. Nowhere did SHE give any exclusive or serious LTR talk or expressed any deep feelings for you. You were paying more attention in how she made you feel and maybe not as much as how much you made her feel.

You also made a rookie move in assuming she liked you anything more than just casual fun based on her initiating, buying you stuff, paying for dates, etc. Girls do that even though they don't want anything serious with you too.

 

[gettinit]

@Lookatu
Fair enough, considering what I wrote. I'm not her, so I can't possibly relate her perspective, except by the obvious end result. There was a lot more that went on and not relevant to the original post. Its over and I'm moving on.
Anyway:
The consensus here seems to be that omission is deception.

 

[Murk]

She's a typical woman, they want their cake. Hard next, you sound like a stand-up guy. She will be pregnant and unhappy soon.

There's nothing new under the sun.

 

[CAPSLOCK BANDIT]

The question has an inherent question built into it: Did you perform your due diligence to ensure an omission could not happen?

These are the reasons we set limits and boundaries early on, to cover all bases; to ensure our verbal contract is not vulnerable to any omission.

Crafting a good verbal contract just takes time/experience in order to understand the situation you can create in her that is going to keep you coming back.

 

[gettinit]

I thought that I did my due diligence. The problem is that "intelligence" can be swayed by the information provided. Just look at the amount of chemical weapons found in Iraq. You might dump a good woman due to bad intelligence as easily as hanging with one who is loaded with poison. You can try to do your best. Sometimes you are right and other times....

 

[gettinit]

I ran into this woman again last week while sitting I was sitting with a mutual friend. She arrived after me and sat at the far end of the bar. She stopped and chatted for a few minutes (twice) and when the place closed, we were in the same group walking out. She maneuvered herself ahead of me (walking towards my car, not hers), turned around and hit me with a tight hug. My natural reaction was to hug her back (Ugh). I just said "nite" and continued on my way.

So the other night, I walk into the same place as all of the previously posted encounters (I had been on a first date in the adjoining bar/restaurant) and she is there with two mutual friends (a couple). I sat at the other end so we were bookends. She basically ignored my arrival and as I was greeting the others. She got up and stepped between them to show a picture on her phone, like I was invisible. I just said: Hi (her name). She turned with a surprised look, said hi, lifted hear arms and asked: hug? I just sat there for a second debating and she blurted out: Okkkay..no. She went back to her seat, paid her bill and left. I was told later that she left because I was rude to her.

Questions:
A: Does anyone think declining a hug was rude?
B: Why would she give a sh*t?
C: Why would she leave?

To me, it seems that I still affect her emotionally or couldn't handle that I refused to provide validation. Before anyone goes on about my posting proves that I still care, I do slightly, but it's just the residual, rose colored glasses nonsense. Considering our past, I wouldn't get involved with her again. Any decoding of female behavior is a learning experience and that's the real reason.
Thoughts?