Messed up early with this chick, salvageable or move on?

[Stoic]

Hey brothers,

Feel free to blast me for poor attitude/behavior, but give me some advice going forward.

Cliff notes:

1. I met a 32 year old girl on match. I am 37.
2. She just (3 months ago) got out of a 10 year relationship with a guy that cheated.
3. I could have been more assertive on dates #1 and #2. Definitely needed to be more sexual.
4. She has reinitiated contact after each of the dates.
5. Both dates have been at parks (during covid-19 virus/panic) during the day
6. She lives about 35 minutes away.
7. She bought food on date number 2.
8. She talks about future dates on each of the dates.
9. I've gone for kiss at end of each dates and get the cheek.
10. I'm not sure, but I don't think her not kissing is due to covid 19 concerns
11. She is Catholic, very wholesome in what she talks about, non sexual (maybe just with me!), seems content to take things very slowly.
12. Do I continue to pursue this? If so, where do I take her on date three? I'll need to get some kind of physical interaction with her or I'd have to say I'm out.

Thanks

 

[CopperHead]

Her giving you the cheek could be taken as a sign that she is not romantically interested.

 

[Atom Smasher]

@Stoic, you seem to be very aware.

Here is how I got physical quickly with my now-fiance: On our first date, we went to various antique stores after mini golf. On very wide staircases and passageways I used my body to push her into the walls and said things like "I can't believe how narrow these stairways are". I was pretending that there was barely enough room to get through even though the stairs were wide. I did this periodically to her delight.

On our second date I did a magic trick (a hobby of mine) and said that if I fool her, she owes me a kiss on the cheek. So I did the trick and then tapped on my cheek to remind her that she owes me a peck on the cheek. When she went in for the kiss I turned my head and caught her with a lip kiss.

These kinds of things tend to absolutely delight women. So what am I doing here? I'm getting physical in surprising ways and having fun. I'm demonstrating confidence as it's obvious I don't care whether I offend or shock her, or not. In fact, I am conveying to her that I want to shock her for my own amusement and I don't care about the result. This conveys massive confidence to her.

This lets you know quickly whether she's on board with you or not. I recommend taking her out again and doing some silly things like this. If she responds well, you will have smooth sailing. If not, then a quick "Next" is in order. The bottom line is that you will KNOW.

If there's one thing I try to teach men here is that it's never acceptable to be in the dark about whether a women likes you or not. Let your own energy force the answer by having fun and forcing the physical in a fun, non-sexual way. This always reveals how she regards you. Women love a man who couldn't care less whether she's on board or not.

It is critically important for us men to flip the script and let her know in no uncertain terms that she is being evaluated by you. In most 1st and 2nd dates, the woman already knows she has the guy hook, line and sinker. Women need to be shaken out of that and every single woman wants a man who will do so. Women want a man to look up to and they want to work for his affection and attention. This is nature.

Leverage nature.

 

[Atom Smasher]

That's the key thing that shakes most guys, I think. They can't figure out where they stand with a girl. There are only two causes of this: either she's playing games, or he doesn't know how to read women. If it's the latter, learn. If it's the former, turn.

Cosign.

Most people go into dating situations with this dynamic: The woman knows the guy likes her and has already completely accepted her, and she will have to judge whether or not he's worthy. The entire date is about the man demonstrating his worthiness. The man's only awareness is that he must prove himself to her in order for her to accept him.

Men, most of you approach dating as beggars. This is not hyperbole. You go in as a beggar. The assumption on both the male's and female's parts is that the man must impress her and she will either accept and choose him, or reject him and move on to the next beggar.

The entire energy of the relationship status flows from her to him. He is reactive to her hints.

The trick is to flip the script. If you flip the script, in due time your problems with women will be over.

You must let her know immediately that you are evaluating and judging her. A lot of you guys don't like my shorthand word, "judging". By this I mean "evaluating". You need to let her know that she is the one who is being evaluated.

You do this in fun, indirect ways, because indirect is the language of women. This is why you can never influence a woman with rational argument. How do you do this? Little fun, teasing comments like "Woah, you just lost some major points with me there!" or "Seriously? You can do better than that!" if she flubs something. By doing this you are clearly telling her that she cannot affect you, that you are not there to be judged by her, but rather that you are most certainly judging her.

"But Atom, surely that will turn a woman off!" Au contraire, mon frere... This does nothing but turn a woman on. It portrays you as fun, confident, light-hearted, and in control. It portrays you as above her. How can I get you guys to internalize that women absolutely crave a man who considers himself above her? This is the key to success with women, but today's men (and that includes many of you here) are deathly afraid to communicate this to women. This is exactly what will push her "passionate about you" button, but you are afraid to press it because it's "impolite".

Women don't want "polite". They want dangerous, mysterious, cutting-edge, fun, daring and bold, with a light veneer of "polite". They want to see that under that polite veneer is a bold, confident man who NEVER puts himself at the whim of acceptance or rejection by a woman.

YOU are the judge, jury and executioner, not her. You do this indirectly and in fun interactions. Women understand "indirect" way better than men do. If you bone up on indirect communications, you will have immense power with women.

The reason you see average men with 9+ women is that these men know what I just told you here and they have internalized it. Women fall in love with a man's CORE. Looks are secondary. Men fall in love with a woman's looks. They are blinded to her core until later when the looks factor wears off. When you get good with women you determine her core much earlier and her looks don't matter so much because you have abundance at that point and you know you can easily find another attractive woman with a good core.

 

[Robert28]

10 year relationship? 3 months ago? Yeah you’re about to get friendzoned hard within the next date or 2.

 

[Glassguy]

3. I could have been more assertive on dates #1 and #2. Definitely needed to be more sexual.

Now that you have went out with her a couple of times you need to make the next "date" at your place. Tell her you will make dinner and have her bring the wine.

Amp up the sexual assertiveness while she is there. You will know where you stand by her actions and response to you making a move.

 

[Stoic]

A very real possibility Robert. I'll let you know how it goes..

 

[Glassguy]

Also, stop LIKING ONE CHICK. Your job is to create a fun and memorable experience when she is around you and fvck her.

Its her job to LIKE YOU and want to revisit that feeling of the experience she has with you over and over.

This is how they start chasing YOU and you dont have to chase THEM.

While it is OK to like a chick, you should not sell out to someone who is not fvcking you on a regular basis, being totally submissive and meeting your needs.

This one chick has done nothing yet to meet your needs. So slow down bro

 

[metalwater]

11. She is Catholic, very wholesome in what she talks about, non sexual (maybe just with me!), seems content to take things very slowly.

Thanks

It is really unlikely... but you might have a unicorn.

she is contacting you... and she is paying for some of the cost... she is available because some guy was fkin around on her (according to her....).

if your looking for something quicker, get with another of your plates or whatever... try letting this one come to you when she is ready.. but do not let her know that she is a plate...

you have to decide if she is really horny and just shy... or if she is a unicorn and really thinks sex is something that married ppl do and only together. remember, she tells she just dumped a guy she was married to because of this exact topic... meaning if she wasn't also cheating then she has not been in the game long...

If your not looking for a ltr candidate.. then just escalate on her and see what happens, if you are interested in a nice ltr.. give her time she will let you know when it is right.

You will probably find that opinions vary on this one, and many of these guys here are not intrested in any girl that doesn't fk them quickly. I get that... But for an LTR, it might be nice to have a lady that has only a count of less then 5 or so.... or only 2... or 3...

 

[bcude]

Couple of things

1. 10 year relationship is a very long time, it will still be fresh 3 months later meaning you're a rebound at this time no matter who you are.
2. She's been cheated on, i know from experience that women (especially with very low self-confidence) take ALOT of blame for a traumatic event like that and think there's something seriously wrong with them. This will heal slowly or faster depending on how she's dealing with it. Brushing it off is not a good sign.
3. She's probably "rusty" in the dating world and in the LTR mode still, which is a good thing for you. Less gameplaying and immediate dismissals over minor things than usual.

From the sound of it i don't believe she's not interested in you just because you got the cheek. Probably more careful and protective after her recent experience.
Lead her into a zone of comfort by being the non-needy, confident, fun guy and she'll open herself up to you like a flower.
If you have the patience and will that is. Confident persistence, learn it and do sexualize your interactions together.

 

[BadBoy89]

Women will always say and do what benefits them. Once they reach a certain age, they will act accordingly with any guy they are with and are trying to lock down.

Women have different priorities at different stages of their life and will act accordingly based on those priorities. Since they are battling their biological clock as well as the opposite sex, the way they behave at 22 is different than the way behave at 32 and 42. Men on the other hand just want sex from the hot girl, their priorities remain the same.

A man’s goal is to sleep with a woman as fast as possible. He should take her anywhere (nice) where he can achieve this goal.

 

[Stoic]

Quick update.

One of these cases where I am glad I did not next her too soon..

She was never really playing games. Just moving painfully slow for me.

She did cancel on me on date #3. The game changer seemed to be when I said that I was going to respectfully bow out with no hard feelings if she was just looking for a friendship. Then, left it at that.

Immediately, responded that she was free this day, that day, whenever was best for me.

Had her over for date 3. And had sex. Now seems to be more in to me for sure...

 

[sosumba]

I said that I was going to respectfully bow out with no hard feelings if she was just looking for a friendship

How did you tell her that if I may ask?

 

[Stoic]

Well I told her this immediately after she cancelled third date, w/offer of a rain check but with no specific date. This was also after getting the cheek on dates #1 and #2.

Wasn't bothered by it, but did want to protect my time...just said something to the effect of listen, if you are looking just for friendship, that's fine, but it's not something I'm interested in. If that's what you want, best of luck and np. If you want to see where things go, just let me know when you're free and we can set something up..

 

[Lumix]

10 year relationship? 3 months ago?

Don't get too attached here. You are a rebound. She's just feeling lonely.

 

[Stoic]

Very true Lumix. I have no illusion of this turning into an LTR.

 

[bcude]

Quick update.

One of these cases where I am glad I did not next her too soon..

She was never really playing games. Just moving painfully slow for me.

She did cancel on me on date #3. The game changer seemed to be when I said that I was going to respectfully bow out with no hard feelings if she was just looking for a friendship. Then, left it at that.

Immediately, responded that she was free this day, that day, whenever was best for me.

Had her over for date 3. And had sex. Now seems to be more in to me for sure...

Good job. You got what you wanted.
See how easy it gets when you're honest and straight to the point? It saves you alot of time, your most precious asset.

 

[Reyaj]

Well I told her this immediately after she cancelled third date, w/offer of a rain check but with no specific date. This was also after getting the cheek on dates #1 and #2.

Wasn't bothered by it, but did want to protect my time...just said something to the effect of listen, if you are looking just for friendship, that's fine, but it's not something I'm interested in. If that's what you want, best of luck and np. If you want to see where things go, just let me know when you're free and we can set something up..

Did you tell her this via text or phone call? It's interesting after two dates of cheek kisses you got the lay on the next date or meet.

Look, man. You'll meet girls who'll want to rip your clothes off within minutes of first meeting them, and others that want to play the courting game. What you're okay with is whatever you're okay with, but if you only ever spend time with the ones who want to f uck instantly, don't be surprised when you find yourself married to a wh0re.

If you ask me, if you like this chick, and you understand women and read people well enough to judge that she isn't just toying with you, just put her on the back burner until she heats up enough for you to move her to the front.

Tossing out every chick who won't give it up right away is only gonna have you winding up with a chick who gives it up right away...and probably to EVERYBODY.

In the old days, guys got their action from the easy girls, on the side, but knew better than to marry them. These days, guys come back with, "but I'm never getting married!" Yeah? Well, tell me that when you've got 3 baby mamas screwing up your kids, and a shack up honey screwing up your credit.

This is something I feel like I deal with often and often and am unsure what the best decision is. I think there can be something to a girl who doesn't give it up right away but I also think they can seen as controlling/manipulative using the "wait" tactic, especially for a kiss. If a girl has a first date rule about kissing, I guess that's fine, I've encountered several of these women... but if she plays the same crap on the second date then its honestly like wtf... If two people like each other they can kiss, plain and simple.

Are two cheek kisses on the first & second date and a lay on the third after pretty much being given an ultimatum indicative of a quality woman?

@Stoic, you seem to be very aware.

Here is how I got physical quickly with my now-fiance: On our first date, we went to various antique stores after mini golf. On very wide staircases and passageways I used my body to push her into the walls and said things like "I can't believe how narrow these stairways are". I was pretending that there was barely enough room to get through even though the stairs were wide. I did this periodically to her delight.

On our second date I did a magic trick (a hobby of mine) and said that if I fool her, she owes me a kiss on the cheek. So I did the trick and then tapped on my cheek to remind her that she owes me a peck on the cheek. When she went in for the kiss I turned my head and caught her with a lip kiss.

These kinds of things tend to absolutely delight women. So what am I doing here? I'm getting physical in surprising ways and having fun. I'm demonstrating confidence as it's obvious I don't care whether I offend or shock her, or not. In fact, I am conveying to her that I want to shock her for my own amusement and I don't care about the result. This conveys massive confidence to her.

This lets you know quickly whether she's on board with you or not. I recommend taking her out again and doing some silly things like this. If she responds well, you will have smooth sailing. If not, then a quick "Next" is in order. The bottom line is that you will KNOW.

If there's one thing I try to teach men here is that it's never acceptable to be in the dark about whether a women likes you or not. Let your own energy force the answer by having fun and forcing the physical in a fun, non-sexual way. This always reveals how she regards you. Women love a man who couldn't care less whether she's on board or not.

It is critically important for us men to flip the script and let her know in no uncertain terms that she is being evaluated by you. In most 1st and 2nd dates, the woman already knows she has the guy hook, line and sinker. Women need to be shaken out of that and every single woman wants a man who will do so. Women want a man to look up to and they want to work for his affection and attention. This is nature.

Leverage nature.

This is a great post and honestly it's pretty much the philosophy I have with my approach to woman. I like how you subtly tease/challenge them.. as I have found going over the top with it isn't good either.

I just have to say though that the above is true only if she is attracted to you to begin with. This is the part that's called "game" - The girl has to be attracted to you and then you have to reel her in with game. A lot of guys might read that post (and again it is a great post) and think if they act that way they will automatically get tons of pvssy. Unfortunately this is not true, looks matter and are the precursor.

 

[Reyaj]

It isn't about any particular woman. It's just an approach to women, in general. I can't give specific advice, because there's never enough info.

In general, if you feel like you're being strung along, but you otherwise like the girl, stop pursuing. You don't have to give her the boot. You can make it clear, as he did, that he isn't looking for a friend(the ultimatum), or you can simply demote her to your periphery.

Personally, unless I just didn't like her that much, I'd just demote her, and move on. I was never hung up on date counting, though, because I never really invested enough in a woman to worry about it. Chicks weren't hanging out with me for a free dinner. I didn't really give them enough options to get confused about why they were spending time with me.

A few chicks wanted to get married, but if that was the case, I just gave them the talk, and cut them loose; most didn't want to marry me, because, despite my paternalistic demeanor, I deliberately gave them few indications that I'd make a good husband. That's why the vagabond drummer never wonders why chicks are into him: it sure as Hell isn't because they're looking for a stable, dependable meal-ticket.

However, if you do happen to run into a good girl, who isn't just trying to manipulate you to the altar, why run her off? It's not like you're obligated to allocate a designated amount of time to her.

I always felt like making a move like the OP did would be frowned upon here... the while ultimatum thing... it sounds like a chick move. If we take him at his word, it panned out for him so I think the delivery of it was key.

You need to make it look like you don't care right, not that you're mad? Maybe I'll test this out the next time I get some shvit tests. I have certainly found that holding frame is key though.

 

[bcude]

This is something I feel like I deal with often and often and am unsure what the best decision is. I think there can be something to a girl who doesn't give it up right away but I also think they can seen as controlling/manipulative using the "wait" tactic, especially for a kiss. If a girl has a first date rule about kissing, I guess that's fine, I've encountered several of these women... but if she plays the same crap on the second date then its honestly like wtf... If two people like each other they can kiss, plain and simple.

Are two cheek kisses on the first & second date and a lay on the third after pretty much being given an ultimatum indicative of a quality woman?

My personal opinion is yes, a girl who makes you wait for sex generally is raising the probability that she might be a better fit for a relationship. There is no magic amount of dates for a kiss or bang, the key is that you want to see progress. If she refuses to kiss you after two fun vibing dates then she's obviously playing games and that's a no go.
It also depends on the man, this is assuming you're not afraid of going in for the kiss and create that sexual vibe.

As soon as you hear that she has "rules" like "no sex on the first date", that just means she's been giving it up easily before which turned out bad in her eyes, so she's trying to show that's she's a good girl. It's good to know that those "rules" fly out of the window if the right kind of man is showing some confident persistance due to women's very emotional nature.

I always felt like making a move like the OP did would be frowned upon here... the while ultimatum thing... it sounds like a chick move. If we take him at his word, it panned out for him so I think the delivery of it was key.

You need to make it look like you don't care right, not that you're mad? Maybe I'll test this out the next time I get some shvit tests. I have certainly found that holding frame is key though.

He was straight to the point, showed intererest in a non-needy way and a willingness to walk away and potentially lose her with that statement. These are masculine traits and a turn on. Especially coming from two dates where he came off as passive and not assertive enough according to his posts.
There are two things that work better with women than most guys think they will. One is being more physical than you think you can get away with and the other one is how well they respond to men being more honest and straight to the point.
Remember, most good looking women are used to passive beta males tripping around what they really want like avoiding hot porridge.