Who here wants to get married and why?

[ImTheDoubleGreatest!]

Good luck with that. Posting your intentions of pre-meditated murder publicly seems like the best way to get away with it.

It would probably be in your best interest if you chose to respond a bit more rationally when someone you trust hurts your feelings.

You're still a teenager though, so you'll likely grow out of your mafioso "people who fvck with me go missing" phase in a few years.

Hey man, no one said anything about murder, though I could see how you came to that conclusion though... I’m just saying that I refuse to work my whole life for someone else who caused destruction in mine. There are other ways you know, LEGAL ways...

 

[Augustus_McCrae]

Actually BetheChange is using you as the example of what not to be: That is a man who works on self-improvement as we solicit all to do on this site, but yet has inner junk that averts ALL good contenders away. You must admit: 200+ women, ZERO LTRS. The facts clearly demonstrate this.

@Augustus_McCrae : Since you have been on this site, I have only read bitter content about women as a whole from you. Understandable, you've been through a tough divorce with a bad woman, but it's time for you to step up to the plate, drop the acerbity, become aware of and learn your lesson(s) (as I asked you to do from Day 1) other than don't marry and women are deplorable tones.

As I stated earlier, it takes two to tango. This is not to be confused with that your ex was good, but rather what contributing role did you partake, and what lessons can you extract from this failed marriage, other than pointing outward.

Guru,

White knight much? Hubris much?

Your comment doesn't deserve much of a response, however, regarding your statement that I think women are "deplorable", I can only suggest the following two things:

1. Work on your reading comprehension.

2. Read everything at therationalmale.com (but only after you've worked on the reading comprehension issue a little).

-Augustus-

 

[guru1000]

Me thinks me knows how to read just fine:

http://www.sosuave.net/forum/members/augustus_mccrae.116463/

Under "Information" ==> "Find all threads"



Only trying to help you. But ... like another ... it falls upon deaf ears. Carry on.

 

[ImTheDoubleGreatest!]

Why do you need a Government CONTRACT to make the lifestyle "easier"? It would be the same with a long term girlfriend.

I don't get why people think its either "marriage" or "constantly chasing women" and nothing in between. Absurd!

Since I'm on "ignore" you won't see this though lol.

What woman wants to have kids without being married? Come on now dude. Plus, she IS less likely to cheat on you simply because of the label that marriage has (unless she is a particularly cunning and evil type of woman, in which case you wouldn’t marry her). To us, there is no difference really, especially when we cohabitate. To them, it’s a whole new level of commitment.

 

[BeExcellent]

"And don't cry to me about financial risk." "I've been faced with that fire." Is a fallacious argument.

Its not a fallacious argument at all. I was smart enough to realize that I was going to have to compromise and make some concessions. The concessions I made are regarding custody and the children and residency restrictions and being solely on the hook for higher education costs and things along those lines. I didn't take an adversarial stance in approaching my divorce. That would have been foolhardy. I also understood I needed to give on some financial things where my ex is concerned. I needed the ability to do that on my timeline, as my business endeavors were approaching critical mass at the time of our agreement, and any disruption at that time would have had serious adverse financial consequences.

I was fortunate in that my ex spouse wanted what was ultimately best for our children, and spending a shjt ton of money on lawyers and fighting and reducing my income engine was not in the best interest of the children at all. We were unique in that way to be sure. But it was a sensitive negotiation, it required a great deal of trust on his part, and I WILL stand by my word until I croak where that agreement is concerned. The reward for his TRUST is my COMMITMENT and HIS FUTURE FINANCIAL WELL BEING.

But make no mistake, looking at family court as the partner with the assets? Mighty scary. Had we gone to court AT ALL, the court would have likely have found our agreement inequitable (based on the law of averages rather than the rationale behind our specific agreement) and taken it upon themselves to split things off so my entire goal was to stay the hell OUT of court. Mission accomplished.

Furthermore, I have committed to see to it that my ex is financially taken care of for the rest of his life. Not until the kids are grown, not for 5 or 10 years, for as long as he lives. This is a commitment made with my word alone. No court order needed. I don't pay alimony, I don't pay child support. This allows me flexibility as a self employed person because some months are fatter, some slimmer. My ex understands this. And if the agreement adversely affects my dating prospects? So be it.

But I pay for everything that my children need, from braces (18K for 3 children) to private schooling, to medical items (glasses at a cost of $400 just this morning for one of my daughters), clothing, camps, sports equipment, etc. etc. etc. My ex and I discuss each month what he needs to run his household and supplement his income...and I cut the checks, no questions asked. If he needs more, I give more, if he needs less, I deploy the saved money elsewhere. I don't need a court to mandate that I do the right thing. I just do it. But our verbal agreement allows for the expansion and contraction of my income stream, so it doesn't hamstring me in a skinny period.

That does not mean that family law does not contain potential tremendous risk for the rest of a persons life if their ex spouse decides to use the legal system because they feel they are entitled to something or because they are bitter and want to punish their ex. And please dont tell me that the percentage of bitter, entitled ex wives is insignificant, there are millions of them (to use your numbers)

I don't disagree with your assertion Augustus. Too many people are scared of negotiating something so emotionally charged and sensitive. Assets, children, and the future are all on the line. Lots of people are stupid and immature and selfish and looking to fight. Open honest communication can go a very long way toward getting something fair in place. People would do well to talk about things and work through things because this can reduce the costs, entitlement, bitterness and desire to punish. I'm not the only person I know who negotiated their own divorce at a pittance compared to what the divorce industry would have cost. But it's sensible and pragmatic and kind of boring. So you generally don't hear about such arrangements. They aren't sensational at all.

There remain millions of happily married couples out there in the world, even here in the USA. That is an indisputable FACT. I find the inability of some of the men here to simply acknowledge that FACT amusing. I'm divorced and have no issue acknowledging that FACT. IMO if you can't acknowledge that FACT (that there ARE millions of happy marriages) then you are coming from a place of failure, lack, and/or inadequacy rooted in your own psyche. I don't have that sense of lack, failure or inadequacy. I can't be more than one side of a relationship, and at the end of the day there are two individuals involved. I understand this concept very well.

 

[Murk]

Because I want children within the sanctity of marriage and to do it traditional if at all possible. But not until I'm at least 31/32 minimum. The idea is to find the one or as close to it and settle down, no?

 

[BeTheChange]

@BeTheChange

Yes there are basically two waves. The men that bloomed early or were in marriage-oriented cultures were able to attract spouses early, just out of college.

Late bloomers (who DID bloom, by the way) are in a new market. We see the desperation and thirst in this market fairly often.

Keep in mind I've spent about 5 of the past 7 years in relationships or dating with that intention. So yes I can do "fine"(I'm totally dissatisfied with it) by a low standard of having A gf, but it is clear as day that the lady's advice is naive as anything.

Not only that, I am fine with a prenupped marriage...I just don't think hard work pays off in that regard. Different market, different currency.

Two of your three ex gf were BPDs. That's not the same thing.

Having anyone as a girlfriend and having a woman that meets the prerequisites for marriage (by any reasonable definition) are entirely different. The market isn't anywhere near as bad as you are implying.

 

[guru1000]

I've dated no less than 7 women for 3+ months during that time. 2/3 1.5 year relationships were cluster B(NPD actually). Yes, the market is atrocious at least from what I've seen.

I have yet to meet one cluster B out of hundreds. It could be I don't mesh with them well so I next before I get to know. Either or, the onus falls upon men to do the choosing of whom they LTR.

 

[guru1000]

Congrats, you beat the national average

Maybe, though I wouldn't likely identify a Cluster B as the minute I notice any crazy- or deviant-type behaviors from a woman, I drop her. I have little patience for others' emotional trauma or incongruent behaviors.

I would encourage men to be the selector--as opposed to the selectee--of whom they share their time with.

If a girl doesn't add unequivocal value (which includes a sane mind) to your life, drop her.

 

[Augustus_McCrae]

Its not a fallacious argument at all. I was smart enough to realize that I was going to have to compromise and make some concessions. The concessions I made are regarding custody and the children and residency restrictions and being solely on the hook for higher education costs and things along those lines. I didn't take an adversarial stance in approaching my divorce. That would have been foolhardy. I also understood I needed to give on some financial things where my ex is concerned. I needed the ability to do that on my timeline, as my business endeavors were approaching critical mass at the time of our agreement, and any disruption at that time would have had serious adverse financial consequences.

I was fortunate in that my ex spouse wanted what was ultimately best for our children, and spending a shjt ton of money on lawyers and fighting and reducing my income engine was not in the best interest of the children at all. We were unique in that way to be sure. But it was a sensitive negotiation, it required a great deal of trust on his part, and I WILL stand by my word until I croak where that agreement is concerned. The reward for his TRUST is my COMMITMENT and HIS FUTURE FINANCIAL WELL BEING.

But make no mistake, looking at family court as the partner with the assets? Mighty scary. Had we gone to court AT ALL, the court would have likely have found our agreement inequitable (based on the law of averages rather than the rationale behind our specific agreement) and taken it upon themselves to split things off so my entire goal was to stay the hell OUT of court. Mission accomplished.

Furthermore, I have committed to see to it that my ex is financially taken care of for the rest of his life. Not until the kids are grown, not for 5 or 10 years, for as long as he lives. This is a commitment made with my word alone. No court order needed. I don't pay alimony, I don't pay child support. This allows me flexibility as a self employed person because some months are fatter, some slimmer. My ex understands this. And if the agreement adversely affects my dating prospects? So be it.

But I pay for everything that my children need, from braces (18K for 3 children) to private schooling, to medical items (glasses at a cost of $400 just this morning for one of my daughters), clothing, camps, sports equipment, etc. etc. etc. My ex and I discuss each month what he needs to run his household and supplement his income...and I cut the checks, no questions asked. If he needs more, I give more, if he needs less, I deploy the saved money elsewhere. I don't need a court to mandate that I do the right thing. I just do it. But our verbal agreement allows for the expansion and contraction of my income stream, so it doesn't hamstring me in a skinny period.



I don't disagree with your assertion Augustus. Too many people are scared of negotiating something so emotionally charged and sensitive. Assets, children, and the future are all on the line. Lots of people are stupid and immature and selfish and looking to fight. Open honest communication can go a very long way toward getting something fair in place. People would do well to talk about things and work through things because this can reduce the costs, entitlement, bitterness and desire to punish. I'm not the only person I know who negotiated their own divorce at a pittance compared to what the divorce industry would have cost. But it's sensible and pragmatic and kind of boring. So you generally don't hear about such arrangements. They aren't sensational at all.

There remain millions of happily married couples out there in the world, even here in the USA. That is an indisputable FACT. I find the inability of some of the men here to simply acknowledge that FACT amusing. I'm divorced and have no issue acknowledging that FACT. IMO if you can't acknowledge that FACT (that there ARE millions of happy marriages) then you are coming from a place of failure, lack, and/or inadequacy rooted in your own psyche. I don't have that sense of lack, failure or inadequacy. I can't be more than one side of a relationship, and at the end of the day there are two individuals involved. I understand this concept very well.

BE,

You are assuming things that I have never said. I've never said that there aren't millions of happily married people. What I have said consistently is that the marriage and family laws and family court are morally bankrupt.

Like you, I also was more than willing to compromise. I was prepared to make her a generous offer to avoid contention and staggering legal costs. I did my best to reason with her. She would have none of it. And In the end, she received less than I was prepare to offer. And my lawyer received a substantial amount of money that I would have given to her.

And I'm very happy for you and your children that your ex was reasonable. But no, you did not "face the fire" of divorce court. So again, I'll say that your argument is fallacious because even if one person is reasonable, if the other is not, via the mechanisms of family law, the reasonable responsible spouse will then "face the fire". Settling reasonably out of court is not the same as being dragged though the soulless gears of the divorce/ family court machine.

-Augustus-

 

[Augustus_McCrae]

I want to state something very clearly.

I'm not against LTR's. I'm in one now.

I'm not against the original concept of marriage involving morality, love, selflessness and fidelity. However, the things that I've just stated have absolutely nothing to do with the rules of family law and how they are applied.

And the simple fact is that when you get married in this country and stay married for any length of time, your spouse, for no reason whatsoever can make your life a living h@ll.

And for the guys who think "Oh, my little sweetheart would never do that to me" are taking a potentially huge risk getting married.

-Augustus-

 

[guru1000]

I think in close to a decade here I have seen dating crazy women recommend two times max lol

Most of the stories you read by newbies and even some vets are relating to their continued dealings with crazy women. It's quite simple when you think about is--that is ...

Crazy==> Drop;

Incongruent Behaviors ==> Drop.

But most men fear pulling the NEXT trigger and surrender themselves into these ill relations.

Out of all the women I have ever dated, I can identify only one as "crazy" or as you would identify as Cluster B. I was 18yo, in scarcity, and of a scarcity mindset.

Scarcity breeds self-deprecation incited by the accepting of unsuitable women.

You must admit, you did meet some crazies, but you also played a part in accepting them into your life.

 

[guru1000]

I guess it's hard for you to understand since as you say you have not been down that road before. There are women that show no red flags and change on a dime. They are not BPD, they are sociopaths and narcissists.

I gather most hot women are narcissists, to varying degrees. This weekend I went out with this 25 yo skin model to the city, about a 40 minute drive. The whole drive there, she was taking selfies likely for her FB/instagram. Only know her for a week. A bit unnerving, not enough for the boot, but certainly put on probation.

Point: If you're dating hot women, you'll likely deal with narcissism to a certain degree.

 

[exhausted]

Congrats, you beat the national average. Some cluster b's are obvious(nothing was obvious to me then, as she was my first GF and I knew nothing about anything). The second was extremely cunning and impossible to detect for about a year.

Yep.
Most are unable to be identified until after a year or 18 months. Hence the problem with moving on so easily as we truly love them and it becomes a fight within your own soul.

 

[resilient]

Interesting related article for the sake of this thread:

...low-income people are less likely to get married, stay married, or report high levels of marital satisfaction. A happy, enduring marriage is increasingly a thing for well-off people.
​

Makes sense when I take a look around at my friends who are married (and still married). They all have balanced, stable and thriving careers. Both partners work. I don't hear about behind the doors interpersonal conflicts. As far as I know, though, they're all happy and no one has divorced anyone (yet).

Take a struggling husband, have him lose his job when the company merges or consolidates staffers and watch marriage satisfaction drop as he looks for the next employer. Watch the wife's interest level. It plummets like the Titanic when his income earning status is called into question.

 

[guru1000]

Oh definitely. My guess is you have a good poker face and they were not able to read your values as easily to mirror you. That is the big change I'm making to screen them out in the future(didn't help that mine was in my social circle).

Good point. As you know, I have many sides among the business-savvy and the IDGAF care-free sides.

I could have chosen to tell her, "Put your phone away," but that would have shown her my boundaries to which she could have artfully played to. Also remember, if I'm dating women 15-20 years my junior I have to "play" open, as their and my maturities are at different levels.

But yes, I water-wrap them a/k/a an agent of fluidity until I have seen enough and NEXT them for "no apparent reason" (as far as they can see).

 

[BeExcellent]

@Augustus_McCrae I get what you are saying and I think what you and many other men here went through stinks.

You and I had experiences with essentially lazy spouses. I was lucky in that my ex was in some ways so lazy as to be unmotivated to bother taking me to court.

Yours actually ran you through the court system. Mine didn't. But the prospect of going through the court system (which I do agree with you IS morally bankrupt - and thus best avoided) and all the preparations in case things got dragged into court was stressful & sobering and made me very careful insofar as how I went about extracting myself from my marriage financially intact. Sometimes its better to be lucky than good. No question.

And like you I think LTRs are just fine. The reason I myself am highly unlikely to consider marriage ever again has to do with protecting my assets from breach by some opportunistic man because those assets are required to support me, my ex, and my children for years to come. All I am saying is that having survived a divorce with assets at risk, (and they WERE at risk even though I managed to stay out of the courtroom) it's something I understand viscerally and I get why the community here holds the view that marriage can easily be a vehicle for those who would take financial advantage of someone else.

But I also still see lots of good functional marriage unions that are enviable. That isn't how my own life went, and that's OK, but I certainly understand the desire for marriage and its potential benefits, which I don't think get the respect they deserve because folks here focus almost entirely on the risks. The risks are nothing to sneeze at, but neither are the benefits. I think as long as people evaluate the landscape and weigh and measure what works for them as individuals then whatever course they choose is chosen wisely and rationally.

I'm all for wisdom and rational thinking.

 

[Urbanyst]

What woman wants to have kids without being married? Come on now dude. Plus, she IS less likely to cheat on you simply because of the label that marriage has (unless she is a particularly cunning and evil type of woman, in which case you wouldn’t marry her). To us, there is no difference really, especially when we cohabitate. To them, it’s a whole new level of commitment.

Blue pill sh*t.

Women have kids without being married all the time. And married women cheat all the time.

You can't be serious lol.

 

[Tenacity]

I was lucky in that my ex was in some ways so lazy as to be unmotivated to bother taking me to court.

But the prospect of going through the court system (which I do agree with you IS morally bankrupt - and thus best avoided) and all the preparations in case things got dragged into court was stressful & sobering and made me very careful insofar as how I went about extracting myself from my marriage financially intact.

I'm highlighting these two quotes, as these two quotes are the reasons why people like myself do not understand why anyone would sign a Marriage Contract and potentially put themselves at risks for dealing with all sorts of financial nuisances.

You indeed were lucky in that your husband could have drained you much than what happened, but one of us guys are most likely not going to be as lucky.

Also you mentioned that you have NO ISSUE sending lifetime monthly checks to your ex-husband, well, Tenacity would have a major, major, major, major problem sending a GROWN A.SS WOMAN lifetime, free, residual checks every month like I'm a damn free annuity.

You mean to tell me.......I'm busting my a.ss to send checks to a chick so she can "maintain the lifestyle she had during the marriage"...... but she's not required to maintain the lifestyle I HAD during the marriage? Such as being required to come cook, clean, and svck/fvck on a daily/weekly basis? That makes absolutely no sense what-so-ever.

The reason I myself am highly unlikely to consider marriage ever again has to do with protecting my assets from breach by some opportunistic man because those assets are required to support me, my ex, and my children for years to come.

This is the central motivation for why myself and others don't want to get married as well. My assets are to support myself for years to come lol, why would I want to have a portion of my current and future assets/income in jeopardy? For what exactly?

The risks are nothing to sneeze at, but neither are the benefits.

What exactly are the benefits I'm getting from a woman by signing a marriage contract that I can't get from her outside of the contract? Nobody in this thread has answered this question........some folks have mentioned about taking advantage of a chick's good financial standing in marriage, or using marriage as a way to fit in socially or politically depending upon what network you come from.

Those reasons are certainly opportunistic reasons based mainly on business/social gain, which I guess makes the dudes stating this in this thread the actual "users" of the "system" we are bashing. But let's keep it real, how many opportunities will you have where a chick marries DOWN? Basically, the guy marries a chick who makes more than him and he could potentially take advantage of her financially?

 

[BeExcellent]

Also you mentioned that you have NO ISSUE sending lifetime monthly checks to your ex-husband, well, Tenacity would have a major, major, major, major problem sending a GROWN A.SS WOMAN lifetime, free, residual checks every month like I'm a damn free annuity.

Listen @Tenacity I understand where you are coming from. I get it. But here is what you must understand about WHY I am electing to this for him. There are a number of reasons why and here they are:

1. We have 3 minor children together. For the next 10 years some or all will be living in the parental homes and will require financial support. My youngest child has a physical disability, which increases costs to take care of her. My ex husband and I remain a solid team as co-parents and our children are extraordinarily well adjusted as children from a divorced home. After they all graduate high school I am the one paying for college. If we have children who live in the parental home while attending university I do not want them to experience undue hardship because of financial duress. So reason #1 is because this puts the children first.

2. My ex husband could have stripped me of 500K or more worth of cash, retirement accounts and income producing assets during our divorce but he didn't. My portfolio was worth around 1M when we split. Because he didn't strip the assets I have been able to double the portfolio due to opportunities that came along during and after the divorce and increase my net worth to over the 1M mark with assets around 2M. I see this as a gift. So I am going to support him because I recognize that he didn't clean my clock when he could have. I didn't have to recover financially from my divorce. That is worth a great deal to me and I think it deserves reward. Basically in not taking my assets in the short term I am going to use those assets to support him in the long term. I think that is a fair thing to do, and it gives him peace of mind that he will be financially OK as he ages.

3. My ex husband could have sued me not only for assets but also for spousal support and child support as he was the stay at home parent for more than 10 years while I traveled extensively on business. In not doing this I retain flexibility to ebb and flow according to my current income stream which varies a bit based on vacancy rates, client load, etc. So if I have a tight month where I have less income I'm not bound by a hard and fast court mandate to pay "X" amount.

4. My ex still assists me with my property portfolio a fair amount when I am gone on business. I trust him explicitly to handle specific tasks that I assign him. He was lazy in the marriage but he has proven loyal since and he understands that our financial fortunes remain tied together (although admittedly in a rather unconventional way) through the income properties. It is in his best interest to help me with managing assets that create the income stream that will support both of us in the long term.

And I'm not supporting him in some lavish lifestyle. Eventually the lifestyle I am able to enjoy will be at a different level than his, but that will happen over time. He will end up with a paid off home, a reasonably new car of his choice within reason, and a financial safety net for income and retirement. Do I have to do all this? No I don't. I just think given the gift I got out of the divorce in the sense of remaining financially intact I will do it to repay him. I got my million on the front end if you will. Because of that I'll be able to give him his on the back end over time from the residual income stream. I deeply appreciate his trust in me, his loyalty and how the divorce ended up (whether he did it for altruistic reasons or not, the result is the same.)