Career/work issues

[Fruitbat]

I have a really bad issue at work and I would massively appreciate the help of kindly Don Juans who want to give an honest brother an even break.

Issue is, I work in a corporate sales team. I believe I am good at my job and my performance is adequate.

My flaw is I have never, ever been good at reading people's intentions or the bigger picture of how some people operate.

I had a poor attitude in my younger years to some extent. However, I have never operated to take down others. I am not calculating or a strategist. I react. If people are good to me, I'm good to them.

I work with what I would consider intellectually inferior colleagues who scheme, lie and manipulate. Classic example of this: the worst one always lays into me hard when bosses aren't there and I would then not see the folly of return fire when boss is back - making me the aggressor.

One is the ringleader - the others aren't fully on board but join in. He has spread false rumours on a constant basis. Every interaction is spun. He works very hard to get on in the company and suddenly people don't seem to like me. He has a big benefit financially if they get rid of me - he would pick up my patch and my customer (whom he often tries to pinch)

The issue is, there is no evidence. It's very skilfully done. My manager is his bestie and although he is fair in his reviews, he always favours this guy and has actually taken things off me and screws me behind my back.

This is bullying. I am so ashamed to admit it but I have a few utter lying bastards trying to slander me and get me out of my job to benefit the ringleader.

I want to stand and fight but if I fight they say I have bad attitude. If I am good, they take liberties. The liar i. Chief has a friend who was a former boss of mine and he put me in hospital with stress.

I need to work on why I tend to be the target. I also have some fairly angry thoughts of revenge and also depression I am trying to quell and be strong.

That aside, does anyone have experience of these types of people - perhaps you are one and you take the attitude of every man for himself. Any help appreciated, any books, anything to stop the constant defamation.

I never came across many people like this in former jobs but this is higher in the corporate world. It's astonishing.

If they succeed, God knows what this will do to me. The issue is, it's all via vague things which are easily covered, like muscling me away from any interaction with senior managers and questioning me public me at meetings etc. If you wrote it down you could say fair enough, you could say misunderstanding.

If I fight with HR then it might get in in trouble for future work as this industry is close and many know each other through the old boys network.

 

[speed dawg]

If you are out-numbered, there's not much you can do but leave the company. Line up another job first, of course.

 

[btownbuck2012]

Damn this really resonates with me as I just had something like this blow up in my face 6 months ago.

I, too, am in sales. I'm from Indiana but now work in NYC. That alone makes me a target out here with all the social justice warriors.

I worked at a company that was very liberal minded. I was the 21st hire and one of the first sales guys they hired. When I was hired it was just me and the Director. When I got canned the sales team alone was at a 35+ person headcount.

I was fired because several people had come forward to upper management claiming that I was making sexist comments around the office.

What were these comments you ask? Well I was promoted into a management role about a year into my time with this company. I realized as soon as I was in that position, now leading a team of 15 people, that I need some help. So I worked hard to get two guys promoted into team lead positions and together we put together a great onboarding program and really boosted the team's numbers as well as new hire performance.

Well a girl on our team didn't like that. She sat me down in the park one day during lunch and calmly explained to me how her numbers were clearly better than the two guys I had promoted. Guess what, though? They weren't. In her head they were better. Yeah...

But anyway, I was told by her that because I failed to see that that I must be sexist. I was dumbfounded at this and incredibly pissed off but I managed to keep that all in and calmly explain to her why this wasn't the case. At this point, she proceeded to tell me that she had at least 4 people in the company who came to her and told her that I had told them she was only with the company and not fired yet because she was a woman. At this point I'm on the verge of losing my sh*t and telling this ***** to go f*ck herself, but again, you just can't do that - as you know.

Finally, I suggested to her that we go talk to our Director. I suggested that her and I along with these other people go and sit down with our Director and hash this out. She said she couldn't tell me who the other people were because that wasn't important. Yeah...

So after this "talk" I go to my Director and tell him what happened. I needed backing and support to handle this woman because she could really f*ck things up for me if she keeps this up, which she eventually did anyway. So I go to my Director and tell him what happened and his response? "Well, Jon - are you a sexist?"

I couldn't f*cking believe it and at that point I knew I was f*cked. Surely enough about a month and a half later, also about 30 days out from a devastating breakup, I got canned and none of the "friends" I thought I had at this company were anywhere to be found. Neither was the heartless b*tch who broke up with me. After 2 years in NYC my entire identity had been ripped away from me. I helped build that sales team from the ground up to the point that we raised a 10 million dollar series A fund and moved into a new office on 7th avenue. But none of that mattered in the face of people's pettiness and backstabbing ways. Upper management was very liberal and fully bought into the whole "women are oppressed" sh*t. The fact that this went down before the election with Trump and Hillary and the fact that I'm a white guy from Indiana didn't help my cause at all. What was so sickening is how all that hard work and effort I put in both with the girlfriend and the company meant nothing to those people. I was majorly f*cked up from this and won't lie to you that I thought about heading to the bridge out here and one point and just saying f*ck it. I mean I HAD NOTHING.

I would get the hell out of there man. There are new jobs and companies out there and the place you are at seems toxic. I've learned at a certain point you can't fight this sh*t in a way that will be meaningful and productive to you. There are people, ESPECIALLY in corporate america, that are so full of their own sh*t and just outright sociopaths that they will happily destroy another human being to make a point or get ahead. I truly don't think all companies are like this but it definitely is the norm. Definitely don't try to retaliate against anyone while you are there or after you leave. Their pathological need to control you will only get more unbelievably cruel and harsh if they think you are trying to defame the company.

What I've learned from it is under no circumstances should you ever talk to people you work with about anything other than work. That's why I hate forced happy hours and all that other bull****. It leads to nothing but trouble. You can still be a strong performer and a great leader/manager. The worst case scenario is that people will probably peg you as a bit bland. But who f*cking cares. It's not worth the trouble it can bring to get involved with petty bull**** at work. And if it finds you then you just have to hope your manager or upper management is professional enough to handle it the right way. I didn't have that at my last job. I think I potentially do now at this new company but who the hell knows.

I've got a call I need to jump on in a few minutes lol, but I'm gonna edit this post and feel free to PM whenever. But yeah man, I know exactly what you're going through.

 

[Alvafe]

things you can do, start to search for a new job, sales? good keep in contact with your clients, copy all tha numbers you need,, find a new job, get in, all good? nice, now if you are selling the same thing then last company time to call every client you had and make better offers then last one, you know how they can offer and hw they work so make it better, steal all that clients to the new company, get paid big in the new and see the old company losing clients win-win for you,

the important in sales is know how to deal with people, so if all your clients like you and you are doing a good job, chances are if you offer then a better deal over your last company, you don't even need to tell then anything about the last one unless asked then you give a you need to leave for a better place for new challenges, and you belive you can make things even better now and make your pitch

 

[logicallefty]

I have been through some nasty stuff in my work life. In fact I just made reference to it in another thread on how I work with a bunch of sociopaths and psychopaths that I can't stand. Here are a few thing I have learned in order to survive in the cut throat environment.

1) COVER YOUR A$$ - Document everything. Verbal conversations mean nothing. Your only defense is to avoid as many of them as possible. And when you do have one, send a followup Email "per our conversation". If a meeting goes on and someone agrees to do something or says something that requires action on their part but could come back on you it it doesn't go right, this is also a good use of the "per our meeting" email. P

2) LEARN SOME LAW - Study some law on your own. You don't need to become a lawyer, but study enough especially workplace law stuff as to where you know what is legally acceptable in the workplace. Not only so you can avoid doing it, but so that you can call others out when they do it.. Did you know is illegal to talk about someone in bad light in reference to their career? Whenever I hear people talking sh|t about me, they get a nice CEASE AND DESIST EMAIL to cut it out or they get sued.

3) DONT SOCIALIZE with people form work

4) LEARN TO BE PASSIVE AGRESSIVE - I know its not good at face value. but learning how to be a little bit passive aggressive is about they only way you can stand up for yourself in this kind of environment without getting in trouble or fired w/ HR. Learn to use the nicest words in the English language to tell people they are idiots. but you don't get in trouble because your words were not "adversarial" at face value (adversarial, thats a popular buzz word my HR likes to use).

I have to go but these should help

PROTECT YOURSELF. These people are cut throat animals. There is no other way to survive other than leaving the company.

 

[btownbuck2012]

I have been through some nasty stuff in my work life. In fact I just made reference to it in another thread on how I work with a bunch of sociopaths and psychopaths that I can't stand. Here are a few thing I have learned in order to survive in the cut throat environment.

1) COVER YOUR A$$ - Document everything. Verbal conversations mean nothing. Your only defense is to avoid as many of them as possible. And when you do have one, send a followup Email "per our conversation". If a meeting goes on and someone agrees to do something or says something that requires action on their part but could come back on you it it doesn't go right, this is also a good use of the "per our meeting" email. P

2) LEARN SOME LAW - Study some law on your own. You don't need to become a lawyer, but study enough especially workplace law stuff as to where you know what is legally acceptable in the workplace. Not only so you can avoid doing it, but so that you can call others out when they do it.. Did you know is illegal to talk about someone in bad light in reference to their career? Whenever I hear people talking sh|t about me, they get a nice CEASE AND DESIST EMAIL to cut it out or they get sued.

3) DONT SOCIALIZE with people form work

4) LEARN TO BE PASSIVE AGRESSIVE - I know its not good at face value. but learning how to be a little bit passive aggressive is about they only way you can stand up for yourself in this kind of environment without getting in trouble or fired w/ HR. Learn to use the nicest words in the English languish to tell people they are idiots. but you don't get in trouble because your words were not "adversarial" at face value (adversarial, thats a popular buzz word my HR likes to use).

I have to go but these should help

PROTECT YOURSELF. These people are cut throat animals. There is no other way to survive other than leaving the company.

This is all good stuff but I've found that if you don't socialize or go to the happy hours you'll be gossiped about as being the party pooper that doesn't embrace company culture. I've literally had people getting angry at me for not wanting to grab a beer at the happy hour. It's like I spend 10-12 hours a day with you people can I not just go home and do what I want at the end of the day? Why the hell would I want to drink alcohol with my f*cking coworkers? Damned if you do damned if you don't.

 

[ubercat]

Mate I agree with the guys. Best thing now is to get out.

Longer term Patrick King s books on conversation tactics r short reads u can dip into. The book workplace poker is also good but harder going.

 

[BeExcellent]

Study and I mean really study 48 Laws of Power. You need to understand the psychology at work in your organization.

Knowledge is power if not at this position, then at the next one.

I've been turned out from working relationships from time to time. Nobody has ever been able to impugn my productivity or my quality but I developed over time a habit of truth telling at the expense of political capital and more than once publicly exposed people in positions senior to me for the dumba$$es that they were.

I found it funny. Not surprisingly, they did not.

That has a way of ticking people off. When I first read Law 1 of the 48 Laws of Power I had a good chuckle. Ahhhhhh. THATS the issue. Law 1 (Never Outshine the Master) and Law 38 (Think as you like but Behave Like Others) I found critically important but it is a book about human psychology that is endlessly applicable in a professional environment.

My advice to you is find a new team ASAP but learn the corporate game. I actually enjoy the game now that I better understand it. But I am also now at a senior management/executive level so it's different than in the lower or middle ranks where most of the jockeying really goes on. I dislike organizations that tolerate and even foster the environment you are describing. It is demoralizing and companies end up with expense of turn over because of it....but I digress.

Fourth and ten my friend. Punt.

But learn the game. You are at enormous disadvantage if you don't.

 

[Fruitbat]

Thanks for the replies so far guys. I actually feel a lot better as I have a look at what was out there and I think I can get similar money. I have been working under the assumption it wasn't a good jobs market but it's pretty good at present.

So it gets me thinking. I have put up with this for a long time so I am in no hurry to move. I have time to drop some more weight and get a couple more exams before up selling myself into the market.

So, I'm thinking any new employer, I should negotiate at interview stage to try to prevent this.

Something along the lines of "I am selecting an organisation based on the overall health of the working environment and culture. Also, I'm looking for a role which allows me to contribute fully to the organisation and fulfil a prominent role without the need to be part of an office drinking and partying culture, of which I have no interest and believe it to be indicative of lack of focus within an organisation"

This way, employers who want you mixed up in the bull**** can be screened. The companies who say "we do not force or expect you to be fully within a work social life and respect employees space" will be the ones I'll look at.

Tricky, but you can't say that's you find most businesses full of psycho liars and cheats and you want to opt out of any chance for them to ruin me, again!

 

[ubercat]

Mate your in sales! All they care about is what you can do for them

 

[Fruitbat]

Mate your in sales! All they care about is what you can do for them

That doesn't have to be how it works. I've been fairly successful without having to screw over my workmates. I'm a long term business relationship manager doing big ticket sales and I firmly believe that if your product can't help someone, find a new product. That's wholly different to spinning lies. It's uneccesary. It isn't that sales is inherently dishonest, it's that dishonest people like sales. That's because lies and BS don't work so well anywhere else but you can be this personality type and be a successful salesperson. That doesn't mean it's the best way to do it.

 

[speed dawg]

Well a girl on our team didn't like that. She sat me down in the park one day during lunch and calmly explained to me how her numbers were clearly better than the two guys I had promoted. Guess what, though? They weren't. In her head they were better. Yeah...

But anyway, I was told by her that because I failed to see that that I must be sexist. I was dumbfounded at this and incredibly pissed off but I managed to keep that all in and calmly explain to her why this wasn't the case. At this point, she proceeded to tell me that she had at least 4 people in the company who came to her and told her that I had told them she was only with the company and not fired yet because she was a woman. At this point I'm on the verge of losing my sh*t and telling this ***** to go f*ck herself, but again, you just can't do that - as you know.

Finally, I suggested to her that we go talk to our Director. I suggested that her and I along with these other people go and sit down with our Director and hash this out. She said she couldn't tell me who the other people were because that wasn't important. Yeah...

So after this "talk" I go to my Director and tell him what happened. I needed backing and support to handle this woman because she could really f*ck things up for me if she keeps this up, which she eventually did anyway. So I go to my Director and tell him what happened and his response? "Well, Jon - are you a sexist?"

There has to be more to the story than this. See the bold stuff above - did that happen? I know people can be vindictive but surely she didn't just pull that out of thin air?

And did you deny these things to your director?

 

[logicallefty]

There has to be more to the story than this. See the bold stuff above - did that happen? I know people can be vindictive but surely she didn't just pull that out of thin air?

And did you deny these things to your director?

She most certainly could have pulled it out of the air if she had a vendetta against him and also a little knowledge of gender related workplace laws. Women have no trouble bonding together and fabricating a common story with the goal of trying to take a man down because one of the women, not all, but one of them had a beef with him.

 

[btownbuck2012]

There has to be more to the story than this. See the bold stuff above - did that happen? I know people can be vindictive but surely she didn't just pull that out of thin air?

And did you deny these things to your director?

Nothing more to the story. I would playful joust with her and a few others, both men and women, about Hillary clinton from time to time. Once I got promoted though it was a different ballgame. The tone totally changed and once I had bumped those two other guys into leadership roles I went from "Oh that's just Jon being Jon haha" to "sexist".

 

[Alvafe]

Nothing more to the story. I would playful joust with her and a few others, both men and women, about Hillary clinton from time to time. Once I got promoted though it was a different ballgame. The tone totally changed and once I had bumped those two other guys into leadership roles I went from "Oh that's just Jon being Jon haha" to "sexist".

hope you learn about this one too, jokes can and will be used to **** you over, some will think it can give then the right to hate you and **** you over for it, because they are sensitive about that. I had that once when I played a joke with a client and he get angry (I stayed quiet but since it was a client who was not really paying couldn't care less), but after that one I learned to joke on more neutral grounds. you also need to understand some poeple will ahte you just for you be smilling in the morning, so at the same time you shouldn't care, you need to control on how much ammo you would give to others.

at the same wth the whole happy hour, really depend on how it work there some people will look angry for you and consider you not a team player (its that whole thing force people to do one thing they will do not willing), but at the same time is a good moment to get your how ammo and dossier of people you work with and see who will be good to keep and who you would let go, the alcohol let a lot of people open to what they think, and just remember a drunk only says what he thinks sober

 

[speed dawg]

Nothing more to the story. I would playful joust with her and a few others, both men and women, about Hillary clinton from time to time. Once I got promoted though it was a different ballgame. The tone totally changed and once I had bumped those two other guys into leadership roles I went from "Oh that's just Jon being Jon haha" to "sexist".

Man, all I can say is that you just can't do that, especially when you don't know the people. Keep your nose clean, and document everything. You can't be a jokester one day and not the next, you know?

That's why I want to escape the rat race.

 

[ubercat]

My comment was in the context of looking for another gig and sending the message u had in mind upfront to a prospective employer. I in no way condoned your colleagues behaviour or said that you had to screw people over. I agree completely with you that a BDM role is all about building relationships.

OK this is just an Internet forum. However if you want genuine considered advice and for people to take you seriously it's probably best not to reply having just having had a cursory glance at the post.

 

[Fruitbat]

My comment was in the context of looking for another gig and sending the message u had in mind upfront to a prospective employer. I in no way condoned your colleagues behaviour or said that you had to screw people over. I agree completely with you that a BDM role is all about building relationships.

OK this is just an Internet forum. However if you want genuine considered advice and for people to take you seriously it's probably best not to reply having just having had a cursory glance at the post.

Your comment was

"Mate your in sales! All they care about is what you can do for them"

You are totally correct, there are multiple deep and coherent nuanced arguments I couldn't see the first time. You put a lot of effort in and I really did fail to pick up the clear message of your statement and its overt contextualisation. Thanks for the steer.

 

[BlueAlpha1]

BUMP.

I could really use a little motivation right now guys. My career is the area that is getting the majority of my attention, not women. Reason being I can't get behind a career and stay there.

I'm 27 years old and have about $30,000 in cash saved up right now. However I have student loans near the same amount that I pay on every month, a credit card bill, and a hefty rent payment. I do not want to quit and dip too far into that savings because of those debts and obligations, however it does afford me the freedom to walk away from anything that gets REALLY bad. I apologize as you have all heard this from me before, but it seems everybody has this one issue with which they repeat themselves on this forum. @Tenacity can't find his unicorn, and I can't find meaningful work.

I have a useless liberal arts degree and have cycled through a half dozen jobs in the last 5 years, mostly in wireless phone sales. The first two of those jobs were great, but the latter two were just dreadful. That has really become a terrible industry, even worse than the airlines. I also went over a year without working during that time which I did a lot of traveling and really enjoyed myself. I felt purpose and masculine energy every single day I was on the road.

But currently I work in an 8 story office that does all kinds of sales and I'm in the travel department. I actually love travel and helping people with it, but there is very little fun here because of antiquated systems, but worst of all the working environment. The office politics is through the roof. It's an office building FILLED with fake smiles from fake people, beta males, mostly female management, and 400 pound feminists who insist on speaking politics and religion at work.

Today there was a half dozen of them bantering incoherently about Valentines Day, and all I could do was bite my tongue. The dominant narrative among Human Resources is in line with that of the 400 pound feminist, not me. When you gather a bunch of these disgusting pigs in one place and they are 75% of the roster, they feel comfortable speaking without a filter as long as the audience is mostly females. And the entitlement even among the lowest caliber of women is making me fvcking hate women, especially those under 30. Couple that with 90 minutes of rush hour traffic per day (45 each way) is driving me goddamn insane. I haven't exceeded one year at a job since January 2015.

I'm sick of water cooler talk. I'm sick of 5 pm traffic. I'm sick of misandry and fake personalities in the work force. I'm sick of "wake me up when it's Friday" BECAUSE LIFE SHOULDN'T ONLY BE GOOD 2 DAYS A WEEK. And I'm sick of rushed 30 minute lunches. All I want to do is travel the world the next 10 years and make money remotely while working for myself, but I see no pathway forward.

@9Volt your input is appreciated also

 

[9Volt]

BUMP.

I could really use a little motivation right now guys. My career is the area that is getting the majority of my attention, not women. Reason being I can't get behind a career and stay there.

I'm 27 years old and have about $30,000 in cash saved up right now. However I have student loans near the same amount that I pay on every month, a credit card bill, and a hefty rent payment. I do not want to quit and dip too far into that savings because of those debts and obligations, however it does afford me the freedom to walk away from anything that gets REALLY bad. I apologize as you have all heard this from me before, but it seems everybody has this one issue with which they repeat themselves on this forum. @Tenacity can't find his unicorn, and I can't find meaningful work.

I have a useless liberal arts degree and have cycled through a half dozen jobs in the last 5 years, mostly in wireless phone sales. The first two of those jobs were great, but the latter two were just dreadful. That has really become a terrible industry, even worse than the airlines. I also went over a year without working during that time which I did a lot of traveling and really enjoyed myself. I felt purpose and masculine energy every single day I was on the road.

But currently I work in an 8 story office that does all kinds of sales and I'm in the travel department. I actually love travel and helping people with it, but there is very little fun here because of antiquated systems, but worst of all the working environment. The office politics is through the roof. It's an office building FILLED with fake smiles from fake people, beta males, mostly female management, and 400 pound feminists who insist on speaking politics and religion at work.

Today there was a half dozen of them bantering incoherently about Valentines Day, and all I could do was bite my tongue. The dominant narrative among Human Resources is in line with that of the 400 pound feminist, not me. When you gather a bunch of these disgusting pigs in one place and they are 75% of the roster, they feel comfortable speaking without a filter as long as the audience is mostly females. And the entitlement even among the lowest caliber of women is making me fvcking hate women, especially those under 30. Couple that with 90 minutes of rush hour traffic per day (45 each way) is driving me goddamn insane. I haven't exceeded one year at a job since January 2015.

I'm sick of water cooler talk. I'm sick of 5 pm traffic. I'm sick of misandry and fake personalities in the work force. I'm sick of "wake me up when it's Friday" BECAUSE LIFE SHOULDN'T ONLY BE GOOD 2 DAYS A WEEK. And I'm sick of rushed 30 minute lunches. All I want to do is travel the world the next 10 years and make money remotely while working for myself, but I see no pathway forward.

@9Volt your input is appreciated also

So you don't want to work a 40 hour workweek? Or work at all?