Is the stock market rigged?

ImTheDoubleGreatest!

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I was wondering about certain industries that don't seem to be declining any time soon (SpaceX, Tesla, Uber, maybe Netflix) and I would wonder about investing in them in the stock market. I asked my dad about it because he is in business and I already know he absolutely HATES it because he says it's all rigged (he knows a guy who lost $600,000, my dad himself lost when he invested in a retirement fund and got penalized by the IRS twice simply because at one point it was profitable even though in the end it wasn't, he has an employee who lost everything because his cousin screwed him over or something, and I know that there are chatrooms on TOR filled with millionaires/billionaires who talk about this kind of stuff), so there definitely is somsthing sketchy about it, but I was wondering about all of your thoughts on this.
 

logicallefty

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I have struggled with a similar question about the Stock Market. Not so much wondering if it's rigged, but wondering if its nothing more than a bunch of numbers to reflect on America's emotions and fears on a given day. I mean, good things happen it goes up. Bad things happen it goes down. Is there really anything more solid to it than this? I'd be curious to hear from folks who are bigger into it than I am..
 

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If your goal is to get rich or even make a little money on the side as supplemental income you have a lot better options than the stock market.
 

ImTheDoubleGreatest!

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I have struggled with a similar question about the Stock Market. Not so much wondering if it's rigged, but wondering if its nothing more than a bunch of numbers to reflect on America's emotions and fears on a given day. I mean, good things happen it goes up. Bad things happen it goes down. Is there really anything more solid to it than this? I'd be curious to hear from folks who are bigger into it than I am..
This is a good observation and it does seem to hold true.
If your goal is to get rich or even make a little money on the side as supplemental income you have a lot better options than the stock market.
Such as?
 

l_e_g_e_n_d

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Yes and No.

No, because you invest into a free market and can choose to hop on institutional coattails if you elect.

Yes, because institutional money runs the market, and many traders/smaller institutions buy only following larger institutional trades, thus riding the stock higher (or lower in short position), putting instant % returns in the institutional buyers' portfolios.
 

fastlife

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The short answer is, Yes. In the short term, the big boys drive prices and can do so super arbitrarily. In the short term, the market is irrational & emotionally driven--fear & greed. However, in the longterm, logic wins out.

Most people aren't built for the market--most people give in to their emotions, most people lose frame in the face of gross 'unfairness' and panic. Almost everybody will tell you it's a bad idea. Your first year you're almost guaranteed to lose money--but think of it as buying an education.

That said, it's also the only mechanism in this country--other than hitting it big in software development or going pro in sports--where someone can drastically change their economic class.

I say go for it--but only start out with money you're willing to lose. If you're holding longterm, do research & wait. The cream always rises to the top.

SOURCE: Investing for a year & some change--been my primary source of income for 7 months when I quit my 'real job.' I've only worked part time since--so that I don't have to prematurely liquidate my equity during rough spells. I anticipate that this will be the last year I work for anyone else ever again.
 
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ImTheDoubleGreatest!

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Ok then, so do any of you have any thoughts about the companies I have mentioned above and what their future is?
 

Bible_Belt

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What you need to understand is that we have the most efficient market in the history of mankind. No matter how much research you do, someone else has already done it, and the results are already figured into the current price of the shares.

Having said that, random walk is a lie. It is possible to predict future price movement, at least in some select instances - that's what traders prey on. But that advantage comes from analyzing past price movement, not from anything you could possible learn about the companies from your own research. Look at lists of 52-week highs, Screen them to eliminate the lower volume stocks. Then watch the charts. Buy them as they back off the 52-week highs and go sideways. Be on the right side of the market, right side of the sector's movement, and use prudent stop losses when things go wrong, and you will make money. It's not that hard. If you take a college course about the stock market, they will teach random walk, and tell you people like me are delusional. I made a living with those delusions for years, and saw countless other traders doing much better than me.
 

SeymourCake

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You need to understand volatility and keep your eyes on the S&P 500 to make accurate predictions.
 

zekko

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I've always suspected that the richest investors, the "elite", have knowledge of, or even control over when the market goes up and down, so they can make more money accordingly. They like to run it down so they can buy cheap and then they like to run it up so they can make more money. Maybe that's my tin foil hat talking, but that's what I think.
 

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I've always suspected that the richest investors, the "elite", have knowledge of, or even control over when the market goes up and down, so they can make more money accordingly. They like to run it down so they can buy cheap and then they like to run it up so they can make more money. Maybe that's my tin foil hat talking, but that's what I think.
This makes sense. I can tell you for fact that this kind of under the table communication goes on in the court system/legal world. Lawyers of opposing parties and judges have secret "off the record" conversations and meetings all the time. They may already have a case long decided before trial, unbenounced to either party. So to think it doesn't also go on in the stock market/financial world would be pretty nieve. Both are high stakes games.
 

ImTheDoubleGreatest!

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What you need to understand is that we have the most efficient market in the history of mankind. No matter how much research you do, someone else has already done it, and the results are already figured into the current price of the shares.

Having said that, random walk is a lie. It is possible to predict future price movement, at least in some select instances - that's what traders prey on. But that advantage comes from analyzing past price movement, not from anything you could possible learn about the companies from your own research. Look at lists of 52-week highs, Screen them to eliminate the lower volume stocks. Then watch the charts. Buy them as they back off the 52-week highs and go sideways. Be on the right side of the market, right side of the sector's movement, and use prudent stop losses when things go wrong, and you will make money. It's not that hard. If you take a college course about the stock market, they will teach random walk, and tell you people like me are delusional. I made a living with those delusions for years, and saw countless other traders doing much better than me.
Can you elaborate more on what that is? I am interested in learning more.
 

fastlife

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Ok then, so do any of you have any thoughts about the companies I have mentioned above and what their future is?
I wouldn't touch Tesla or Netflix. I think Tesla has already seen most of its upside re: value by positioning themselves in a niche market that's only going to see more competition. I think Netflix has pretty much reached saturation--most of its upside is already realized. Everyone and their mom already know about these two and have probably invested; you'll have to think more outside the box.

SAEX is one I've had my eye on--especially at its current levels. But it's a speculative stock & one you'd have to keep an eye on daily (i.e. it could go up 1000% on hype and then go back down 1000% within hours or days). Longterm, I wouldn't feel comfortable holding & forgetting--though I don't think you would lose money.

I don't invest in tech or oil or gold or anything like that--I've only done biotech, which is super volatile and most 'traditional' investors specifically recommend against investing there. SPHS, CERU, BIOC, XXII, RTTR are all tickers that I've researched heavily & would be confident holding over the course of 5 or 10 years; but you wouldn't want all your eggs in one basket--at least a couple of those will probably fail.

Drone stocks & MJ stocks are probably good longterm investments at this point. If I was casually investing--i.e. buy it & forget it--I'd be looking into those.

What you need to understand is that we have the most efficient market in the history of mankind. No matter how much research you do, someone else has already done it, and the results are already figured into the current price of the shares.
Depends on the sector & the time frame. Once you get into spec stocks, fundamentals matter & development is too uncertain for the PPS to be anywhere close to accurately set. Time frame wise, a lot can change given 5 to 10 years, though most of the 'blue chip stocks' are pretty much none causes (but if you have enough $$$ that 1-2% looks pretty sweet lol).

Having said that, random walk is a lie. It is possible to predict future price movement, at least in some select instances - that's what traders prey on. But that advantage comes from analyzing past price movement, not from anything you could possible learn about the companies from your own research. Look at lists of 52-week highs, Screen them to eliminate the lower volume stocks. Then watch the charts. Buy them as they back off the 52-week highs and go sideways. Be on the right side of the market, right side of the sector's movement, and use prudent stop losses when things go wrong, and you will make money. It's not that hard. If you take a college course about the stock market, they will teach random walk, and tell you people like me are delusional. I made a living with those delusions for years, and saw countless other traders doing much better than me.
Agreed that 'traditional' investing is pretty much a lost cause unless you're already playing with millions. But again, depending on the sector, DD can be massively important. If a drug fails or passes--a binary event--your research leading up to that event can be the difference between losing 80% or gaining 300%. And a drug can fail or pass regardless of charts or indicators.

I've always suspected that the richest investors, the "elite", have knowledge of, or even control over when the market goes up and down, so they can make more money accordingly. They like to run it down so they can buy cheap and then they like to run it up so they can make more money. Maybe that's my tin foil hat talking, but that's what I think.
Not even a suspicion. That's exactly how it goes. The big guys ALWAYS get theirs. Every now & then the SEC will take out someone who overplays their hand--but the guys at the top, a lot of whose money is held in hedge funds offshore, are pretty much untouchable. As a little guy, you have to understand that & ride the coattails as best you can.

It's pretty brutal though. I've watched a stock tank 20% on FDA approval--top shelf data, placebo-like safety profile, almost totally de-risked--and they run it down 20% on good news, tripping off stop losses, hold it there for a week which puts all the little guys in margin call (they have to liquidate), buy up all the discount shares, and then let it run. I've also watched them run an obscure micro-cap stock up 2500% over the course of 3 days on nothing at all. The big guys sell their shares to the little guys on the way up who get caught up in the hype, set their short positions at the top; the SEC halts the stock & it opens like 95% down from its peak.

That's why you're almost guaranteed to lose money your first year. It's like living in bizarro-world--it's frustrating & unfair & logic flies out the window. But we also live in a time where the average Joe has access to more knowledge & faster data than even the best investor did 50 years ago--and it is possible to learn the rules of the game & play accordingly.
 

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I DD can be massively important. If a drug fails or passes--a binary event--your research leading up to that event can be the difference between losing 80% or gaining 300%. And a drug can fail or pass regardless of charts or indicators.
Unless you have inside information, how is your research going to uncover anything that everyone else doesn't know already?

I agree that news moves stocks. But the market always knows first. And you can see that in the chart. I have had the most expensive news feeds - Dow Jones, Reuters, and a Bloomberg terminal that was like 2 grand a month. And the stock always moves before the news. Always.
 

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Step #1
1. Stop trying to make money on individual stocks. You cannot effectively do this unless you go to the business and inspect it personally. Even then, the people who do this professionally only barely break even, often coming in behind the people holding index funds.

2. Buy index funds instead, these are funds comprised of stocks that make up the top 500 or so companies of the US economy. Funds that seek to track an index, like the Dow or S&P500.

I recommend $VV, but wait to buy in, the world will be scared when Donald Trump starts re-negotiating trade deals. Their fear will become your profit, but only if you do not succumb to the fear yourself. It is often hard to do this, as fear is very effective at making people sell or not buy at all. Buy the dip.

3. Get the stock at the price you want.
4. Do exactly the opposite of what Jews say. Advertisements on financial websites saying "buy!" are just that, advertisements. They are literally wrong more than 50% of the time, doing exactly the opposite of what they suggest is more profitable.

5. Funds that aren't tracking an index pay a "stock broker" to make trades all day that barely net them any real growth at all. Any gains they do make are stolen because you have to pay the stock brokers to make the trades all day. Index funds are the absolute best way to go, unless you can do the real work and inspect a business yourself. The fees going to the stock brokers are called "management fees". Indices rarely change, so all that is required is a janitor to make small changes to the portfolio once in a while, check for low management fees on your index funds.
 

ImTheDoubleGreatest!

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Step #1
1. Stop trying to make money on individual stocks. You cannot effectively do this unless you go to the business and inspect it personally. Even then, the people who do this professionally only barely break even, often coming in behind the people holding index funds.

2. Buy index funds instead, these are funds comprised of stocks that make up the top 500 or so companies of the US economy. Funds that seek to track an index, like the Dow or S&P500.

I recommend $VV, but wait to buy in, the world will be scared when Donald Trump starts re-negotiating trade deals. Their fear will become your profit, but only if you do not succumb to the fear yourself. It is often hard to do this, as fear is very effective at making people sell or not buy at all. Buy the dip.

3. Get the stock at the price you want.
4. Do exactly the opposite of what Jews say. Advertisements on financial websites saying "buy!" are just that, advertisements. They are literally wrong more than 50% of the time, doing exactly the opposite of what they suggest is more profitable.

5. Funds that aren't tracking an index pay a "stock broker" to make trades all day that barely net them any real growth at all. Any gains they do make are stolen because you have to pay the stock brokers to make the trades all day. Index funds are the absolute best way to go, unless you can do the real work and inspect a business yourself. The fees going to the stock brokers are called "management fees". Indices rarely change, so all that is required is a janitor to make small changes to the portfolio once in a while, check for low management fees on your index funds.
Thabks for the advice. I'm very new to all this and never learned about it really so pardon my ignorance, but what do all these words mean, such as "index"? A lot of the people here were using terminology I did not understand.
 

fastlife

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Unless you have inside information, how is your research going to uncover anything that everyone else doesn't know already?

I agree that news moves stocks. But the market always knows first. And you can see that in the chart. I have had the most expensive news feeds - Dow Jones, Reuters, and a Bloomberg terminal that was like 2 grand a month. And the stock always moves before the news. Always.
I strictly trade/invest in small-cap biotech. The process of bringing a drug to market is extremely volatile and hinges on multiple binary events. The chart can't predict a failed trial; it can't predict a buyout. Short-term, you can play the chart; but long-term technicals go out the window. Knowing enough about a drug's history & about the company's CEO (and his connections in the past to Big Pharma) makes a huge difference on the success of knowing where to place your bets. It's still a lose-big, win-bigger kind of proposition--and there are people who know before you--and you might can see dilution coming in the chart or you might see someone who got the info first get out, but the Market Makers also throw in deliberate head fakes & there are situations where a drug just falls flat on its face--and you still have to do the best with the information you have available.

Curious on doing a bit of paper trading. What r the full names of these companies?
I haven't done any research about any specific companies. But MJ will be legalized nationwide within a decade (but probably sooner) & plenty of companies will ride that wave on what will be a billion dollar industry. Drones will also--I'm projecting here--become an indispensable part of the human experience (like smartphones are now). I trade biotech, which is its own game & I'm not sure I'd recommend it to anyone doing casual investing.
 

Bible_Belt

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The last time I looked up MJ companies, they were all penny stocks, which I avoid like the plague. If you're looking for a "rigged" market, then pennies are your game - fake quotes, backing away from trades, and zero liquidity when things turn south. Exchange-listed is a whole different ball game.
 
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