stubborness in modern dating

[Bingo-Player]

don't think anyone here can deny that when you meet a woman of equal looks and value to yourself theres the issue of "who bends first"

meaning who exactly is to make more effort than the other leading up to the initial meeting / first date stage ........

of course often the male will as he is directed to by society , the woman will then smell weakness and end up taking control of the frame - this goes horrifically wrong because women aren't capable of controlling frames ( they can only follow not lead ) and she will most likely end up going completely ghost on him

and then the male ends up on somewhere like here in a state of pure bewilderment as all he wanted to do was simply grab a drink with her to get to know her better ........

i will be the first to admit that these days i am as stubborn as a mule unless i feel i am getting a more than equal level of effort back from a woman i will just shut her down completely

I've had my fingers burnt too many times in the past to be any different and secondly i don't believe any man worth his salt should be made to "chase a woman"

but that leaves us with a problem because ......

women don't believe they need to chase men infact i know chicks that are UTTERLY APPALLED at the thought of putting too much effort in with a man .....

so that leaves guys like me who aren't prepared to lower themselves to nagging a woman for a date in complete limbo

and i already know what some people will say to this post

" oh well bingo you need to increase your value then blah blah blah "

no remember at the start i said a woman of EQUAL value and looks to myself ,

if i wanted a woman beneath me i would go get one quite easily , but i don't i want a woman i can put on my arm and to look and act like she has belonged there all her life

its frustrating when you meet a chick you think could be suitable and your constantly forced to have to go through all this rigmarole

i just can't see a way through it .......

 

[AttackFormation]

I think your problem starts with seeing any woman as equal to yourself. That's a pvssy-drying wrench in the mental/frame cogwheel right there.

 

[Von]

don't think anyone here can deny that when you meet a woman of equal looks and value to yourself theres the issue of "who bends first"

meaning who exactly is to make more effort than the other leading up to the initial meeting / first date stage ........

of course often the male will as he is directed to by society , the woman will then smell weakness and end up taking control of the frame - this goes horrifically wrong because women aren't capable of controlling frames ( they can only follow not lead ) and she will most likely end up going completely ghost on him

and then the male ends up on somewhere like here in a state of pure bewilderment as all he wanted to do was simply grab a drink with her to get to know her better ........

i will be the first to admit that these days i am as stubborn as a mule unless i feel i am getting a more than equal level of effort back from a woman i will just shut her down completely

I've had my fingers burnt too many times in the past to be any different and secondly i don't believe any man worth his salt should be made to "chase a woman"

but that leaves us with a problem because ......

women don't believe they need to chase men infact i know chicks that are UTTERLY APPALLED at the thought of putting too much effort in with a man .....

so that leaves guys like me who aren't prepared to lower themselves to nagging a woman for a date in complete limbo

and i already know what some people will say to this post

" oh well bingo you need to increase your value then blah blah blah "

no remember at the start i said a woman of EQUAL value and looks to myself ,

if i wanted a woman beneath me i would go get one quite easily , but i don't i want a woman i can put on my arm and to look and act like she has belonged there all her life

its frustrating when you meet a chick you think could be suitable and your constantly forced to have to go through all this rigmarole

i just can't see a way through it .......

Yeah it sucks but it's life.

If they can't respect you and your time/ value. The girl ain't of equal value

The girl of equal value would understand you and make it happens in your frame. She might try to pick but she will bent to support you

A LTE the dynamic must be one of support. Their is a frame that moves like a tree to support each other based on core value of respect.

Due to my business, I had to give up on a lot of dates for LTE cause she wouldn't understand that I also had to work week nights (up until midnight). I dropped her. Cause I knew if she fight me for time, it would never stop and only get worst

A plate I wouldn't care cause I would always set her on my own term and her reaction is my way or the highway

Yes a LTr potential sometimes you have to give in but never at your expenses

So you do good and continue, cause the girls of equal value will understand.

 

[El Payaso]

"women don't believe they need to chase men"

UNLESS he has a lot of value.

Have you seen the way those same women, that you say are appalled at the idea of chasing a man, react to seeing a hunk male model or rich sports star or entertainer?

As long as she believes you to have sufficiently high enough value, she won't only chase you she will spread her legs and force you inside her.

 

[logicallefty]

its frustrating when you meet a chick you think could be suitable and your constantly forced to have to go through all this rigmarole

i just can't see a way through it .......

Sex bots and hookers and porn. Oh my!

 

[BeExcellent]

don't think anyone here can deny that when you meet a woman of equal looks and value to yourself theres the issue of "who bends first"

meaning who exactly is to make more effort than the other leading up to the initial meeting / first date stage ........

of course often the male will as he is directed to by society , the woman will then smell weakness and end up taking control of the frame - this goes horrifically wrong because women aren't capable of controlling frames ( they can only follow not lead ) and she will most likely end up going completely ghost on him

and then the male ends up on somewhere like here in a state of pure bewilderment as all he wanted to do was simply grab a drink with her to get to know her better ........

i will be the first to admit that these days i am as stubborn as a mule unless i feel i am getting a more than equal level of effort back from a woman i will just shut her down completely

I've had my fingers burnt too many times in the past to be any different and secondly i don't believe any man worth his salt should be made to "chase a woman"

but that leaves us with a problem because ......

women don't believe they need to chase men infact i know chicks that are UTTERLY APPALLED at the thought of putting too much effort in with a man .....

so that leaves guys like me who aren't prepared to lower themselves to nagging a woman for a date in complete limbo

and i already know what some people will say to this post

" oh well bingo you need to increase your value then blah blah blah "

no remember at the start i said a woman of EQUAL value and looks to myself ,

if i wanted a woman beneath me i would go get one quite easily , but i don't i want a woman i can put on my arm and to look and act like she has belonged there all her life

its frustrating when you meet a chick you think could be suitable and your constantly forced to have to go through all this rigmarole

i just can't see a way through it .......

Bingo, if it makes you feel any better this is confusing as hell for us girls too. Much, MUCH depends on what the people expect going into the interaction, in other words, how are they pre-conditioned.

For example, Male perspective: You guys on the forum always talk about getting the woman to chase. That is all well fine and good until you run into the situation you decribe above and the girl WON'T chase. So, being conditioned that you want women to chase...Mexican standoff ensues.

For example, Female perspective: Women who understand men well teach their daughters NOT to chase men. Be receptive and responsive but let him reach out, let him initiate. So being conditioned that it is unnatural for women to pursue men, she doesn't chase after you...Mexican standoff ensues.

For well matched couples the best dynamic has the man in the lead role. From. The. Start.

That means the man reaches out, and the woman responds to him.

I am constantly perplexed at this idea that somehow if the woman starts out doing the initiating that things go anywhere good. Now on OLD perhaps an electronic IOI is one thing. In that environment I think it harmless to send a wink or a flirt or an IOI, then WAIT TO SEE IF THE MAN reaches out. Then we are in the male reach out/female respond dynamic. The male can set the frame from here and lead.

How anyone expects to grab leadership back from what in my day was considered a "forward" woman after the man waits for her to do the reaching out tells her (subconsciously) that she has to be in charge and really she doesn't want (subconsciously) to be in charge...how that ever gets back in balance I would love for someone to explain. IME it doesn't work.

The male role is to do the hunting and pursuing. The females role is to be pursued. Look at most any mating ritual in the animal kingdom. Are humans so different?

 

[sazc]

I agree with @BeExcellent For me, when I am dating, I wont initiate and I wont chase BUT for men I haven't met, or ones that I am contemplating dating, I make it a point to always respond positively, in any form that he communicates. I want him to feel good about the communication and know he is being received happily. I like to leave the frame with the man and maintain an encouraging role.

It sounds to me like you are looking for a female to be receptive to you. At the very least, you want the female to indicate to you that she IS interested, and you arent wasting your time. If that is a truth then, if the females you are talking to are playing games with their communication, pass them over. I disagree that a woman should put in a ton of effort to get a man. That's a turnoff to the man and makes her look needy. However, if she has high interest, she will make communication easy and fun.

 

[l_e_g_e_n_d]

You pursue until the bang. Then you can ease back. This is the nature of the game.

 

[wifehunter]

An honorable woman, who can find?

 

[TheFixer14]

Women always think that the guy should make the first move. I always think it's funny when I catch a woman staring at me. Why not just say something? Women most of the time only approach me in clubs when they are tipsy.

 

[ChristopherColumbus]

There would be a lot less wasted time, effort, and frustration, if men followed the rule: women make the first covert move, men make the first overt move.

 

[Champ Slice]

I am definitely taking notes on the content of this thread.

I grew up thinking chase the girl until you get her. Funny thing is not only does it come off as desperate and needy but its also unrealistic to think that you could get the girl doing this in most scenarios.

Before first date: I reach out, spit game, set something up.

After first date: I wait a few days to get in contact with ole girl, i get straight to the point and set something else up.

After second date: I make contact a few days later just to check in but I don't make contact after that. I wait for her to contact me first. I belive in trading off. This weeds out those who aren't truly interested. If she doesn't contact me then on to the next one.

Thoughts?

 

[Roober]

I am definitely taking notes on the content of this thread.

I grew up thinking chase the girl until you get her. Funny thing is not only does it come off as desperate and needy but its also unrealistic to think that you could get the girl doing this in most scenarios.

Before first date: I reach out, spit game, set something up.

After first date: I wait a few days to get in contact with ole girl, i get straight to the point and set something else up.

After second date: I make contact a few days later just to check in but I don't make contact after that. I wait for her to contact me first. I belive in trading off. This weeds out those who aren't truly interested. If she doesn't contact me then on to the next one.

Thoughts?

This is sort of how I work as well. I will passively ignore after the first date even if it went well. If a girl flakes, there is a good chance she won't hear from me until she reaches out. Some women believe to their bones that men should do the chasing. I am in the camp that believes I will pursue for a little bit until the first date. After that, if I have kissed her or more, then it falls back on the woman... Getting her out, making the date physical, showing her a great time, you have already done more than your share...

If a girl gets in some sort of stalemate because she refuses to hit the tennis ball back over the net.... ADIOS!

6 different women so far, and 5 of them have all given me the "had a great time" text to which I will reply, maybe chat a bit, then wait... If I have nothing open on my schedule, I likely won't reach out until that day comes...

 

[mrgoodstuff]

This is sort of how I work as well. I will passively ignore after the first date even if it went well. If a girl flakes, there is a good chance she won't hear from me until she reaches out. Some women believe to their bones that men should do the chasing. I am in the camp that believes I will pursue for a little bit until the first date. After that, if I have kissed her or more, then it falls back on the woman... Getting her out, making the date physical, showing her a great time, you have already done more than your share...

If a girl gets in some sort of stalemate because she refuses to hit the tennis ball back over the net.... ADIOS!

6 different women so far, and 5 of them have all given me the "had a great time" text to which I will reply, maybe chat a bit, then wait... If I have nothing open on my schedule, I likely won't reach out until that day comes...

She HAS to show interest for it to mean anything. So I'm in the same camp as you.

 

[blind_one]

Solid stuff Gals n Gents.

Assuming there is interest on both sides I do not care much for social stigma bs or whenever she should chase me or not as long as she cooperates. I do not mind if she initiates which I always take as a good sign but I am also not taken a back if I have to initiate time after time if everything is going smoothly.

Playing chicken is for kids.

 

[bigneil]

With my dream girl, the first two times I saw her I made a good impression and got her name but honestly had to leave. The third time I ran into her by chance she said "Hey, I know you! Don't leave this time!" When we finally got to sit together and speak for the first time, I quickly confessed I had a crush on her, and she confessed she had a crush on me. She told me she had gone looking for me the previous times she saw me. We later figured out that we had met at a hotel where she was a waitress 9 months earlier so there was a sense of destiny. She said "I met hundreds of people at work but I remembered you". We had our first date 2 weeks later and are still dating 4 months later.

Now, the (second) time I saw her (not recognizing her) I genuinely thought she was the most beautiful woman I ever saw. I remember every nuance of her expression the first time we spoke (I asked her if she had any tattoos and she smiled and shook her head and said no and my heart sung, that was one of the only times she would ever say no).

But if I had told her my feelings right away, I don't think I would have had the masterful seduction that unfolded. However, when she told me she had a crush I told her she was one of the most beautiful women I ever saw and that I wanted to photograph her. In her own words she said: "Oh dear, you are making me swoon way too fast!"

Note that falling "too fast" for her was 5 weeks.

So IMO the keys are to make a good impression and not to pursue until she shows some positive feedback.

 

[Bingo-Player]

Interesting to hear the females POV on this

It would seem from the opinions they shared the man should take the lead and she will respond positively if she’s interested

That’s fair enough I can understand that, but the male is still being put in a situation where he is under immense pressure to lay all his cards on the table without coming across as too available AND dont forget he still has to keep his own emotions under control whilst doing this

Even if by some miracle the male is experienced and strong enough to be able to do all this, he STILL risks being blown out by some unforeseen circumstance such as a date going wrong or an ex boyfriend popping up

It isn’t difficult to see why romance has died nothing is allowed to be natural anymore because nobody wants to risk being made to look like a fool

Case example :

I meet a girl I like we flirt and exchange numbers

I initate contact as I am a man and am “required” to make the first move , chick responds positively ok great, but conversation HAS to end sooner rather than later in order for either party not to come across as too interested and scare the other side off

So conversation is shut down ……..now who initiates the next contact

Me again I suppose !?! ok fine I feel I shouldn’t really because right now I am at like 60% effort by initiating yet another conversation and she’s at 40% simply waiting & having to respond “positively”

So I wait a couple of days and initiate again and she responds positively again but the conversation again has to end on that day to keep up the charade

So conversation is shut down again ……now for me this is crunch time at this point she HAS to reach out and initiate with me otherwise I am going up to like 70% effort and she’s going down to 30% this is too far and I feel it opens the door for game playing

But if she feels as though I need to make that third initiation ( and more) to show im interested and prepared to “work” for her

then we enter said Mexican standoff point ......

i feel it is literally easier to obtain casual sex with a stranger than it is to play through this phase with someone you like .......

thoughts please @sazc @BeExcellent

 

[Bingo-Player]

"women don't believe they need to chase men"

UNLESS he has a lot of value.

Have you seen the way those same women, that you say are appalled at the idea of chasing a man, react to seeing a hunk male model or rich sports star or entertainer?

As long as she believes you to have sufficiently high enough value, she won't only chase you she will spread her legs and force you inside her.

i wanted to avoid responses like this in the red purely because i highly doubt any of us here are those stereotypes

we are just normal guys looking for normal girls

furthermore i assure you people at that level in society have exactly the same issues

why do you think hardly any celeb relationships / marriages work out

 

[Bingo-Player]

I think your problem starts with seeing any woman as equal to yourself. That's a pvssy-drying wrench in the mental/frame cogwheel right there.

ive date and fvcked enough women to know by now that if you want one long term you HAVE to see her as equal or the attraction just dies

 

[ChristopherColumbus]

I

It isn’t difficult to see why romance has died nothing is allowed to be natural anymore because nobody wants to risk being made to look like a fool

Case example :

I meet a girl I like we flirt and exchange numbers

I initate contact as I am a man and am “required” to make the first move , chick responds positively ok great, but conversation HAS to end sooner rather than later in order for either party not to come across as too interested and scare the other side off

So conversation is shut down ……..now who initiates the next contact

Me again I suppose !?! ok fine I feel I shouldn’t really because right now I am at like 60% effort by initiating yet another conversation and she’s at 40% simply waiting & having to respond “positively”

So I wait a couple of days and initiate again and she responds positively again but the conversation again has to end on that day to keep up the charade

So conversation is shut down again ……now for me this is crunch time at this point she HAS to reach out and initiate with me otherwise I am going up to like 70% effort and she’s going down to 30% this is too far and I feel it opens the door for game playing

But if she feels as though I need to make that third initiation ( and more) to show im interested and prepared to “work” for her

then we enter said Mexican standoff point ......

i feel it is literally easier to obtain casual sex with a stranger than it is to play through this phase with someone you like .......

thoughts please @sazc @BeExcellent

Sure, but when you are being natural you are not thinking about all these things as if you were in some romantic version of The Game of Thrones. There's an oxymoron.

No, you are just in the moment, and doing your manly thing.

Case in point; this evening, girl in front of me at the cafe was taking ages to order thanks to cards, computers, and electronic discounts etc. Being a bit impatient, I kind of made my presence felt, then turned it into a joke with the girl about why you need cash [I'd seen her in that cafe before]. We chatted a bit while waiting for our coffees. I took mine to a seat, and noticed she in turn sat down a few tables away. I felt the rapport had been good enough for me to go over and invite her to join me. She did, had a great chat, got the number. Simples.

Getting the number was kind of polite/ expected. I will not text her, but just say hello again when I happen to see her next. Chat, and maybe ask her out directly.