Many women dont want Alpha

[Pandora]

I think the OP is wrong. I dont think there is a woman on the planet who thinks "gee I wish my man was less confidently masculine, less motivated, less attractive physically and more unhealthy" If they are saying that it is either a **** test or they are a toxic ***** trying to bring you down.
Being "alpha" to get women to like you is an oxymoron.
Be a confident masculine person because it is a better way to be.

Hey bro i do respect your opinion. I may be wrong in my observation. But i was not referring to women after they are already your girlfriend. I am talking about when you are getting to know them and court them. Like the first few dates. After they are already your girlfriend they usually have a stake in your success. It becomes mutually beneficial. Please answer these couple questions. Maybe i am looking at this topic wrong.

1.) Why do some beautiful women date down when they have their pick of successful men throwing themselves at them? We all know a few women who don't go for value. They are dating losers that are not even alpha at all.

2.) Why would so many females i know tell me " yes i used to date down because i had self love issues". One girl told me that she used to date losers that needed her in order to " validate her existence".

We are so stuck in this hypergamous thinking. There are many women that just don't feel comfortable around quality men! Why is that so hard for guys on this board to understand. Trashy women who never had a classy role model or a father are not going to suddenly pick classy men. For example if a successful in shape cooperate lawyer went on a date with an ex stripper with not even a high school education that was slightly chubby do you think that chick is going to feel comfortable! No way. She would be so insecure and it would show. Even though she would be sexually attracted to the guy she will find a way to distance herself ( sometimes after sex). Women know when men are out of their league. They fear rejection more than anything else in the world. This overrides their hypergamous nature. Many socially conditioned things override hypergamy. Now not all women are like this. This is a growing minority but they are out there and its more common than you think.

 

[Pandora]

Seems complete opposite of my experiences, possibly because the definition of "alpha" has different meanings to some people. Alpha vs beta is mostly about a man's tendency to be a follower or, if not a leader, then at least be independent. There are so many ways this can play out. A lot has to do with having a rebellious side but knowing when it's a good time to use it.
Generally I've found that women want financial security above all else. This is why they settle with beta males. You can be very alpha and pull pu$$y well, but you'll have a hard time keeping a quality woman around. Hell, even a low quality woman will ultimately ditch you for a beta provider depending on the situation. Ideally, you'll be an alpha with money that let's your woman know you can have your pick at women, but you're "giving her a chance" to be "your girl". If you're just a beta provider, she'll cheat or leave you and take your money and heart out through your balls.

Have you ever dated a girl that was insecure around you? They usually say things like
1.) "you prob date super skinny girls"
2.) "your family would never accept a girl like me"
3.) "see that's why i cant date you" ( after you explain to her that you will move on if she tries to string you along too much)
4.) "you are probably a player"

These types of women are going to be afraid to get emotionally attached to a guy that doesnt need them. So they run away from this. They generally run towards guys that are more in their league. Now they may sleep with you but being in a relationship with these women is going to be tough. Being super alpha makes alot of women uncomfortable because they become disposable to you and they know it. But if those are not you experiences then i understand bro. Maybe i am dating super insecure women lol.

 

[ChristopherColumbus]

Many woman don't want Alpha?

Great, then what's the problem? Let them screen themselves out!

This is perhaps only a problem for the guy trying to bang as many women as possible... and not too concerned about quality. But I question if that is 'Alpha'.

 

[Pandora]

Many woman don't want Alpha?

Great, then what's the problem? Let them screen themselves out!

lol you are correct. Just screen them out. Its really that simple. But i was just pointing out that just because you improve it doesnt mean more women will want you. It just means a higher quality women will want you. I just found it fascinating that not all women are comfortable around guys out of their league aka alpha.

 

[Tenacity]

Our maybe when you rely on outside achievements for your intrinsic value and sense of self worth, you are lacking depth on an inner level and this transmits itself through your dealings with people.

Lol, lacking depth? Seriously? You are talking about a market of women who fvck broke, dusty, stupid, unintelligent, ex-convicts, most of which can barely read (not exaggerating that statement) but you are going to attack guys like ME for lacking depth lol?

What happens if you lose all of your outer trappings? (which happens, and has happened recently to a poster) You are left with what?

Nothing. I would be homeless again. Which wouldn't be good.

Happiness (high self esteem) and success (achieving a goal) need to be considered as two separate lines.

No, they shouldn't, because you cannot achieve TRUE happiness in this free market, capitalistic, ultra-competitive society unless you have some level of money and resources. Tell me what can you acquire in this country and MAINTAIN in this country without money/resources? Nothing, everything requires money to acquire it and/or maintain it, especially relationships with women, creating a family, maintaining social relationships with friends, etc.

If we cannot be happy now, as Victor Frankl suggests, regardless of our circumstances, we won't be happy in the future (when we achieve our goal)

Try finding "happiness" living in destitute. Go preach this sermon to people living in high crime/poverty filled areas which are like the city of Flint where I came from/grow up in:

- How can you "learn to be happy" living in a high crime area? You can't walk the streets without potentially being shot.

- Living in an area with poor schools, sending your children to drop out factories.

- Living in an area with no jobs, the majority of people around you living BELOW the poverty line relying on food stamps. Once you reach the 20th of the month, many times you are OUT of food stamps until the 1st, and just have to "figure out" where the fvck your meals come from for the next 10 days.

- Living in an area with no fvcking healthy water coming out of the faucets.

Have you EVER lived in poverty? Have you EVER been homeless? I have, and there's no way in hell you can formulate some type of "happiness" living in those conditions. All you can do is keep trying to get the fvck out of there BEFORE some thug puts a bullet in your head.

Take @Tenacity for example......his response that maybe his boastful behavior (amongst other things) turns women off:
"those that say it's boastful behavior usually wish they had something to boast about"

Really? You see.......defensive behavior. It's the other person's fault (victim mentality). Never once looking within . Never once thinking "hmm could there be something in my personality or behavior that's turning certain women off"

Reykhel I think you are coming off like a hater lol.

You don't know where I come from. 10 years ago I was living out of a van, not knowing where my next meal was going to come from. Today I'm sitting here living in the suburbs, driving a new Camaro, 4 degrees, big a.ss net worth, and I'm in GOOD health with a 6 pack.

You god damn right I'm proud of myself and if I come off as slight bragging, then so the fvck what? Is this NOT a male self-improvement website? So you have a living testimony of what this site preaches and you have the nerve to try to bring me down saying I lack depth and that I'm bragging?

Women have a new feminist competitive nature, they see a guy doing better than them (black man at that) and it makes them say, "How did this N-word surpass me?" Many black women are not USED to black men being ahead of them.....me talking/displaying my accomplishments (or bragging as you say) has not a damn thing to do with anything.

What accomplishments have you achieved? Do you have a testimony? Let's hear it......after all this is a self-improvement website so what things have you achieved thus far in life?

 

[Tenacity]

Have you ever dated a girl that was insecure around you? They usually say things like
1.) "you prob date super skinny girls"
2.) "your family would never accept a girl like me"
3.) "see that's why i cant date you" ( after you explain to her that you will move on if she tries to string you along too much)
4.) "you are probably a player"

I hear this shyt ALL of the damn time lol. I also hear:

- Why are you single?
- I bet you say this to all the women don't you?
- You aren't gonna be faithful to me driving in that Camaro.
- I don't take you serious, how do I know you will commit to me?

I don't know if you date black women, but this shyt is BIG in the black community. I don't know if it's as big with white women, but in the black community.........this shyt is BIG.

 

[Reykhel]

@Tenacity

Interesting response, pumpkin. You seem upset, I'll try to reassure you where if I can.

I'll try to keep this relatively short as I have no desire to get into a neurotic exchange with the likes of you. I've see your threads of "debates" where
your only objective is to prove yourself right. These threads are never ending, you like to bullet point, you need to address every perceived
slight and counter to your beliefs. You are not only an attention ***** but you are toxic. Take the thread you started around christmas time (I think). It actually sounded like you were lonely and a cry for help. It was never ending. All you want to do is complain. All of your posts contain little barbs aimed at those that may disagree with your point of view. Look at your little sarcastic barbs "go preach your sermon.........." I could address everyone of your questions and sit here getting into an exchange with you. I got better things to do. Hating? Nah I'm telling you why I don't wish to engage with a toxic invalidator after this post. Now to this post

Read the post again......it was addressed to @Pandora ..........if you read it properly I used the "general you", In English, this commonly has replaced the use of "one" as only the Queen of England uses that.........however, it is interesting that you have taking every single point as a personal attack and directed at you. Some buttons pushed perhaps. Maybe there's some value there.

I only addressed you towards the end of the post. I addressed your childish response. If felt like a child saying to me "your only saying boastful because you wish you had the achievements that I had". You come across as if you haven't fully developed.

You have a huge chip on your shoulder. The victim mentality will always attract other broken people.

I hope you get the help you need.

Maybe take up a hobby that has no outcome, other than to add a little fun in your life.

 

[Tenacity]

@Tenacity

Interesting response, pumpkin. You seem upset, I'll try to reassure you where if I can.

I'll try to keep this relatively short as I have no desire to get into a neurotic exchange with the likes of you. I've see your threads of "debates" where
your only objective is to prove yourself right. These threads are never ending, you like to bullet point, you need to address every perceived
slight and counter to your beliefs. You are not only an attention ***** but you are toxic. Take the thread you started around christmas time (I think). It actually sounded like you were lonely and a cry for help. It was never ending. All you want to do is complain. All of your posts contain little barbs aimed at those that may disagree with your point of view. Look at your little sarcastic barbs "go preach your sermon.........." I could address everyone of your questions and sit here getting into an exchange with you. I got better things to do. Hating? Nah I'm telling you why I don't wish to engage with a toxic invalidator after this post. Now to this post

Read the post again......it was addressed to @Pandora ..........if you read it properly I used the "general you", In English, this commonly has replaced the use of "one" as only the Queen of England uses that.........however, it is interesting that you have taking every single point as a personal attack and directed at you. Some buttons pushed perhaps. Maybe there's some value there.

I only addressed you towards the end of the post. I addressed your childish response. If felt like a child saying to me "your only saying boastful because you wish you had the achievements that I had". You come across as if you haven't fully developed.

You have a huge chip on your shoulder. The victim mentality will always attract other broken people.

I hope you get the help you need.

Maybe take up a hobby that has no outcome, other than to add a little fun in your life.

Just say you have no logical response to the points I made. Your personal character attacks are meaningless.

 

[SkrooU]

Have you ever dated a girl that was insecure around you? They usually say things like
1.) "you prob date super skinny girls"
2.) "your family would never accept a girl like me"
3.) "see that's why i cant date you" ( after you explain to her that you will move on if she tries to string you along too much)
4.) "you are probably a player"

These types of women are going to be afraid to get emotionally attached to a guy that doesnt need them. So they run away from this. They generally run towards guys that are more in their league. Now they may sleep with you but being in a relationship with these women is going to be tough. Being super alpha makes alot of women uncomfortable because they become disposable to you and they know it. But if those are not you experiences then i understand bro. Maybe i am dating super insecure women lol.

I've met up with women like that. In the past I would just take advantage of them because they were easy to get in bed. I had one flip out when I cut ties after sleeping with her a few times. She actually showed up at my work place and made a dramatic scene in the lobby. The security called the police, and I had to file a restraining order because I didn't trust her to not start lying about crap and ruin my life. So now? I don't mess with any woman who says things like that. Those are terrible, low quality women, dude. Stay away from them. At some point they'll either burn you or just drive you nuts because you're always putting on the kiddy gloves when dealing with them. A quality female, irrespective of her looks, will want you to be an alpha, just not the cheating low-life type of alpha. She's high quality because she's loyal to you doing what's good for yourself.

 

[zekko]

I don't believe you have to be an "alpha male" in order to have a backbone. An alpha is a top choice male. Even betas back in the 50s led their households. It's no trick for even a beta male to dominate a woman. It's only because men have become emasculated in recent decades that men are supplicating.

It's funny how guys come here to learn how to get women. They get told they are betas, and the forum tries to change them to alphas. Only to be told that women only go for betas once they hit 30. Sorry boys, you missed out again. Lol.

 

[BeExcellent]

I think we all can agree that humans are complex. Hypergamy is not the rule all the time. People tend to self-sort by all sorts of criteria and due to all sorts of social influence and environment.

I've seen personally two examples of this although not related to male/female relationships.

Case 1: A neighbor of one of my modest rent houses became a friend through helping me keep abreast of goings on at the subject property. She was invited to a baby shower hosted by a doctor's wife in the home of the doctor. She didn't go because those weren't "her type people" even though the doctor's wife was a gracious and kind person, and even though I, her friend, would be there. It had to do with her self-sorting to a lower social strata than the doctor's social strata, nothing to do with me nor anyone other than herself.

Case 2: I have a relative for whom I serve on a charitable foundation. The relative is a millionaire. She is also a hot mess and has been her entire life. She is a reclusive person, terrifically insecure and cannot stand to be seen socially on behalf of her charity (she could be a well known philanthropist in her community if she had self esteem) and when she has men in her life they are without exception loser types who steal from her and take advantage of her to a criminal degree. She too will say the philanthropist types and the luncheons and dinner functions (which would LOVE to recognize her foundation's generosity publicly) are "not her type people" and that she feels inferior around them. So my relative suffers from severe low self-esteem and insecurity.

In both cases the women could have moved in social circles most healthy people who classify as desirable.

But many women are not healthy in the self-esteem department. Women with serious self -esteem issues are not going to feel comfortable with a man who by his very being highlights whatever perceived shortcomings they have. They may like it at first but at some point begin to feel they are somehow "less than" and will undermine the relationship over time because of their own issues. These issues are manifest with jealousy, insecurity, neurosis and the like, all of which are repellent qualities that will drive a good man away.

 

[Pandora]

I think we all can agree that humans are complex. Hypergamy is not the rule all the time. People tend to self-sort by all sorts of criteria and due to all sorts of social influence and environment.

I've seen personally two examples of this although not related to male/female relationships.

Case 1: A neighbor of one of my modest rent houses became a friend through helping me keep abreast of goings on at the subject property. She was invited to a baby shower hosted by a doctor's wife in the home of the doctor. She didn't go because those weren't "her type people" even though the doctor's wife was a gracious and kind person, and even though I, her friend, would be there. It had to do with her self-sorting to a lower social strata than the doctor's social strata, nothing to do with me nor anyone other than herself.

Case 2: I have a relative for whom I serve on a charitable foundation. The relative is a millionaire. She is also a hot mess and has been her entire life. She is a reclusive person, terrifically insecure and cannot stand to be seen socially on behalf of her charity (she could be a well known philanthropist in her community if she had self esteem) and when she has men in her life they are without exception loser types who steal from her and take advantage of her to a criminal degree. She too will say the philanthropist types and the luncheons and dinner functions (which would LOVE to recognize her foundation's generosity publicly) are "not her type people" and that she feels inferior around them. So my relative suffers from severe low self-esteem and insecurity.

In both cases the women could have moved in social circles most healthy people who classify as desirable.

But many women are not healthy in the self-esteem department. Women with serious self -esteem issues are not going to feel comfortable with a man who by his very being highlights whatever perceived shortcomings they have. They may like it at first but at some point begin to feel they are somehow "less than" and will undermine the relationship over time because of their own issues. These issues are manifest with jealousy, insecurity, neurosis and the like, all of which are repellent qualities that will drive a good man away.

Can i get an Amen! This is what i was trying to convey but i could not express it as eloquently.

 

[zekko]

She was invited to a baby shower hosted by a doctor's wife in the home of the doctor. She didn't go because those weren't "her type people" even though the doctor's wife was a gracious and kind person, and even though I, her friend, would be there. It had to do with her self-sorting to a lower social strata than the doctor's social strata

My guess is she doesn't feel comfortable in such an environment because it's an in her face reminder that she has lower status than those people. Probably reminds her that she could have achieved more success in her life had things gone in different ways. This way she avoids facing that.

when she has men in her life they are without exception loser types who steal from her and take advantage of her to a criminal degree..

This doesn't disprove hypergamy though. Guys here will tell you that a girl could be moving "up" the "alpha" ladder by switching to a homeless abusive manipulative thief. If the guy is more exciting and "alpha" in her eyes, she could view him as a step up.

For me, hypergamy just means that a girl wants the best guy she can get. Guys do this too, but that isn't talked about here. The main difference between the genders is that I think that once a guy commits to a certain girl, he is more likely to be satisfied with her. Whereas a woman might be more likely to switch to the bigger, better deal when it comes along. For the guy, once he makes the choice, he's more likely to consider the matter closed.

Women with serious self -esteem issues are not going to feel comfortable with a man who by his very being highlights whatever perceived shortcomings they have. They may like it at first but at some point begin to feel they are somehow "less than" and will undermine the relationship over time because of their own issues.

Guys do this too. If the guy is dating "out of his league" he's going to subconsciously be aware of it and self sabotage it, by behaving in an insecure manner. I think this is the cause of a lot of the problems that bring men to this forum. They were dating out of their league and "started acting beta". They come here and learn how to either improve themselves, fake better value, or at least act like they are on the same level as the most attractive girls that they want.

 

[Tenacity]

This doesn't disprove hypergamy though. Guys here will tell you that a girl could be moving "up" the "alpha" ladder by switching to a homeless abusive manipulative thief. If the guy is more exciting and "alpha" in her eyes, she could view him as a step up.

For me, hypergamy just means that a girl wants the best guy she can get. .

Zekko I don't think hypergamy exists any longer in this new market of Feminism. I think it died out in the 1970's when the Feminist Movement kicked off with the mantra from women that "I'm a woman, I can do anything a man can do".

There should be no debate about what Hypergamy is, it's simply DATING UP the social class ladder based on protection and provision. This is what women practiced in mass prior to Feminism because it was based on survival aspects. She sought after the guy who could protect and provide, which meant he had what might be defined as alpha traits of strong masculinity as well as being smart with strong resources OR the ability to bring in resources.

I don't see women practicing this anymore, matter of fact as I stated, if a guy is likely to be in a position to protect and provide, many women will see this as competition....not as a guy she should SUBMIT to.

If Hypergamy were active, you just would not see Ray Ray, Pookie, and other broke, stupid, unemployed, thugs getting women. I know women with Master's Degrees and PhDs who are dating Ray Ray and Pookie. I KID YOU NOT. So there's no way that's Hypergamy being practiced.

Ray Ray and Pookie are not a step UP in anything....they don't have any ability to protect or provide, which is what Hypergamy is based on. It's clear the women no longer REQUIRE a man to protect and provide, which means the women no longer are operating on hypergamy.

 

[zekko]

There should be no debate about what Hypergamy is, it's simply DATING UP the social class ladder based on protection and provision.

That's the strict definition, and you're right, if you go by that hypergamy is on the decrease because women have other options for protection and provision these days, even if it's only provided by the state. Yet hypergamy remains one of the biggest complaints in the manosphere.

A looser, but more modern, definition would be if a girl dates up to a guy who has more SMV. That could be one of the so called "alpha" @sshole types this forum is so fond of promoting. Personally, I think that if a woman gets bored, she may make a lateral move or even make a move down if she finds the novelty of a new guy more exciting. It's whatever she sees as most valuable in her mind at the time.

 

[ChristopherColumbus]

Ok, so what's this 'hypergamy'? Not hyper-gamey by any chance?

From the dictionary:

'the practice among Hindu women of marrying into a caste at least as high as their own.'

Edit: just read the posts above.

 

[Pandora]

Guys do this too. If the guy is dating "out of his league" he's going to subconsciously be aware of it and self sabotage it, by behaving in an insecure manner. I think this is the cause of a lot of the problems that bring men to this forum. They were dating out of their league and "started acting beta". They come here and learn how to either improve themselves, fake better value, or at least act like they are on the same level as the most attractive girls that they want.

I can see this. Guys exhibit similar behavior. But i was focusing on women because we hardly ever think of then as being insecure in the presence of "alpha". This might just be an insecure human problem rather than gender specific. I just wanted to point out that some women are insecure so they will not seek out good stable men because they dont feel worthy deep down.

 

[guru1000]

Men, I’m afraid in our search for reason and rationality, we have become the illogical gender. We sit here with countless theories, “hypergamy,” “alpha,” “indifference”—trying to fit ALL women into the same box; attempting to fit a square peg into different shaped holes. How illogical have we become in the search for truth?

Women will respond to the specific man who meets her needs. The woman without a father figure will respond strongly to a fatherly approach. The hot model who has scores of men fawning after her will need the indifference card. The hard-working waitress with two kids will respond strongly to marriage and hypergamy to bring financial freedom into her and her family’s life.

Take a woman like @BeExcellent: though she’s subject to hypergamy as she needs to feel inspired by another more successful than she is, ask her why marriage is not mandatory for her. Because she does not need it. She is financially secure. The women who intransigently push the marry-card are women who need your financial provisioning over the long-term, as they are fully aware of the potentiality of your leaving once their beauty fades and the ensuing financial disaster. From a logical standpoint, can we understand this “Needs Concept” or do we still choose to invest into this “All Fit into One Box” ideology?

 

[Tenacity]

Men, I’m afraid in our search for reason and rationality, we have become the illogical gender. We sit here with countless theories, “hypergamy,” “alpha,” “indifference”—trying to fit ALL women into the same box; attempting to fit a square peg into different shaped holes. How illogical have we become in the search for truth?

Lol but Guru has NOT this been the foundation of my commentary for over 2 years? I've been saying that most of what makes a woman "move forward with you" has more to do with her than it does you. I've said that things such as social conditioning, cultural influences, her financial status, her feminist status, etc., all play MORE of a part in a girl accepting or rejecting you....than does ANY "technique".

I've said that all a guy can do is fix his Looks, Personality, and Finances to where he's a 6 or 7 out of 10, then play the numbers. He approaches 20 chicks, gets 12 numbers, goes on 6 dates, fvcks 3 of them, and gets into a relationship with 1. But I've said that the INDIVIDUAL results with the women he has no control over, it will all depend on these factors outside of his control.

But Guru you and others have argued this point saying that it's all about biological/natural/Animal Kingdom imperatives....

 

[guru1000]

Tenacity, again with this all or none thinking?