Tell me what too do next

[ritapita20]

Yes, its because you wanted to be in control and use it as a bargaining chip with him, to get him to do your every whim hoping to be rewarded with some pvssy, and it obviously worked because he was a beta chump that would wait because he was afraid of losing you due to lack of other options.

No women will risk losing a man she really wants over sex if she feels he can go out and get it elsewhere. Period. Women only play the sex card with weak men who they know won't leave them or because they don't respect his ability to find other women, not with guys who they know will just get it elsewhere.

You use the word devoted. I use the term pvssywhipped beta.

And then what happens if you find out he is TERRIBLE in bed? You are going to dump him because he can't satisfy your needs after you made him wait all that time...well really, because he had no balls to go for what he wanted and let you make him wait, let's be real...if he turned you on enough you would have broken...all women do.

Wrong. Until you've been in a woman's shoes you can't say that. To emotionally connect with a guy and think it's going somewhere then you finally sleep with him to just for him to go completely ghost on you is one of the most sh*ty feelings ever. No explanation whatsoever. Poof. Just gone. That feeling alone will make a woman abstain from sex for quite some time.

It's not a bargaining chip. It's self-preservation. We're told don't sleep with a guy too early; you'll be seen as a sl*t or may just use you for sex. Matter of fact we're told it's better to hold of on sex until you're in a relationship, at least exclusive but at the same time we see stuff like this ^ and think well may be I should have sex with him. It's a damned if we do, damned if we don't.

Bottom line is you have no idea what kind of a**hole a woman has dealt with in the past and until she's good and comfortable you cant put this kind of pressure on a woman. You can't say things like it's a "bargaining chip". May be the last guy gave her a std, turned out he had a gf, etc., so until a man proves himself, risky or not, and she wants to wait you cant fault her for that.

 

[kenpiffyjr]

Wrong. Until you've been in a woman's shoes you can't say that. To emotionally connect with a guy and think it's going somewhere then you finally sleep with him to just for him to go completely ghost on you is one of the most sh*ty feelings ever. No explanation whatsoever. Poof. Just gone. That feeling alone will make a woman abstain from sex for quite some time.

It's not a bargaining chip. It's self-preservation. We're told don't sleep with a guy too early; you'll be seen as a sl*t or may just use you for sex. Matter of fact we're told it's better to hold of on sex until you're in a relationship, at least exclusive but at the same time we see stuff like this ^ and think well may be I should have sex with him. It's a damned if we do, damned if we don't.

Bottom line is you have no idea what kind of a**hole a woman has dealt with in the past and until she's good and comfortable you cant put this kind of pressure on a woman. You can't say things like it's a "bargaining chip". May be the last guy gave her a std, turned out he had a gf, etc., so until a man proves himself, risky or not, and she wants to wait you cant fault her for that.

Let's just Disregard the STD portion.

Why can't you just determine yourself that you just like the guy and want to sleep with him because you find who he is attractive enough to do what adults do?

Why are you looking at it from a stand point of waiting for the right time for something or to make sure of something? Let's say it comes out that he kicked his grandmother down a flight of stairs months after you slept with him, the time you were with the guy....wasn't he still pushing buttons in you that says "I want to have sex with this guy?"

Please help us understand if it's not a bargaining chip, why it isn't it just an act you would partake in because you want to perform it with a guy you feel like performing it with?

 

[andy87]

I'd bring it up at the end of the next date if nothing happens...maybe say something like

"Well, it was fun getting to know you a little better but I don't think this is going to work out, so take care." And when she says "Why??" Just flat out tell her "I enjoy sex and if I'm with a woman who doesn't feel the same way then I'd rather spend my time around women who do." And then shut up and watch her reaction. She might Fvck you on the spot or she might be like "oh well, blah blah" some excuse...if it's an excuse she simply isn't into you like that and you saved yourself a lot of time.

Think i might do this cheers, so tonight she texts me we need too arrange a drink sometime soon i agree then she says she isnt free until start of june witg work etc. My question if she wasn't intrested would she arrange a date as far away as this?

 

[Tictac]

if she wasn't intrested would she arrange a date as far away as this?

To see if you will wait as around though you had no other options. Maybe she's doing this, maybe not. But it's an obvious answer to your question.

 

[BeExcellent]

Since he isn't getting sex yet the question becomes why he is interested in her. If all he wants is sex, then yes, he should drop her. If he wants something more than just sex that is different.

Some women (myself included) are smarter than just becoming one of the sex options on a man's menu.

Such women would rather hold out for a relationship for any number of reasons, not the least of which is protecting one's health, and life is too short to waste time on people who just want the quick physical fixation. No thank you.

I personally do not have sex on a first date because 1. I value myself more than that and 2. There is no way to know someone well enough (if you are more interested in a relationship than JUST sex) on a first date to determine whether or not the man is motivated only by the lay or if the man really enjoys a woman's company for more than just that. It takes a while to figure this out.

There are women who will only have sex after the relationship becomes exclusive. Typically these are your better quality women. That doesn't mean they don't like the man or aren't turned on by him, or don't want to fvck him, it just means they understand that the only means of knowing whether or not a man is willing to invest emotionally is by waiting to have sex. Trust me they are waiting too! It isn't a bargaining chip so much as it protects one from both STDs and unnecessary emotional pain. Why have sex with someone who doesn't care about you? I know people do it all the time, but it still isn't a good idea if what you want is a LTR.

I'm going to observe that a man cares about me by what he does for a while before I go to bed with him. Especially if I really like him. I've always been that way. This weeds out the men who want just sex pretty quickly, and it also weeds out the guys who could take or leave a woman.

I understand my SMV and this has never created any issues for me. When a woman waits to have sex it also allows her to evaluate the man she is with from a more objective place too, let's just be honest, and women are observing male behavior just as much as men are observing women's behavior.

It really amazes me how many guys get on here and preach that you can't turn a ho into a housewife...but yet those same guys want to screw ho's and also have quality women in the rotation. At some point you can't do both.

Screwing lots of ho's and finding a quality woman are mutually exclusive. So it depends what the goal is.

Smart women with high SMV know this and they (wisely) hold out for emotional investment, commitment, LTR or the like. Once the man shows his investment these are the women who are more able to really give a man the emotional depth that men want. And the men are less worried that their woman is apt to sleep around or cheat because she refused to screw him right out of the starting gate.

This isn't really rocket science.

 

[ritapita20]

Since he isn't getting sex yet the question becomes why he is interested in her. If all he wants is sex, then yes, he should drop her. If he wants something more than just sex that is different.

Some women (myself included) are smarter than just becoming one of the sex options on a man's menu.

Such women would rather hold out for a relationship for any number of reasons, not the least of which is protecting one's health, and life is too short to waste time on people who just want the quick physical fixation. No thank you.

I personally do not have sex on a first date because 1. I value myself more than that and 2. There is no way to know someone well enough (if you are more interested in a relationship than JUST sex) on a first date to determine whether or not the man is motivated only by the lay or if the man really enjoys a woman's company for more than just that. It takes a while to figure this out.

There are women who will only have sex after the relationship becomes exclusive. Typically these are your better quality women. That doesn't mean they don't like the man or aren't turned on by him, or don't want to fvck him, it just means they understand that the only means of knowing whether or not a man is willing to invest emotionally is by waiting to have sex. Trust me they are waiting too! It isn't a bargaining chip so much as it protects one from both STDs and unnecessary emotional pain. Why have sex with someone who doesn't care about you? I know people do it all the time, but it still isn't a good idea if what you want is a LTR.

I'm going to observe that a man cares about me by what he does for a while before I go to bed with him. Especially if I really like him. I've always been that way. This weeds out the men who want just sex pretty quickly, and it also weeds out the guys who could take or leave a woman.

I understand my SMV and this has never created any issues for me. When a woman waits to have sex it also allows her to evaluate the man she is with from a more objective place too, let's just be honest, and women are observing male behavior just as much as men are observing women's behavior.

It really amazes me how many guys get on here and preach that you can't turn a ho into a housewife...but yet those same guys want to screw ho's and also have quality women in the rotation. At some point you can't do both.

Screwing lots of ho's and finding a quality woman are mutually exclusive. So it depends what the goal is.

Smart women with high SMV know this and they (wisely) hold out for emotional investment, commitment, LTR or the like. Once the man shows his investment these are the women who are more able to really give a man the emotional depth that men want. And the men are less worried that their woman is apt to sleep around or cheat because she refused to screw him right out of the starting gate.

This isn't really rocket science.

I wish I could like this a million times over. Like I said earlier we are damned if we do, damned if we don't.

 

[Amer1group]

I don't think you can classify someone as "just sex" or "more than just sex". If you don't believe me, try a shot of testosterone until you reach a man's level, you will feel wonderful after a "indefinite of being evaluated" of nothing.

This website exists to analyze (or learn to not analyze) how much "feelings" screwed us in the past. Prior to the situations all women complain about we have to learn how to talk, behave, etc. by not giving in to needy "FEELINGS", then we are supposed to guarantee devotion. Dating is about seeing what is going to happen, don't come here to tell us that you are the queens of commitment and long term relationships.

I don't want to offend, but what are you two doing here? You are not gonna change me; and I'm as sure as hell that I'm not going to change you; my purpose is to tell you that if you are going to a men's forum, follow its rules (The DJ Bible).

 

[fastlife]

This isn't really rocket science.

You make some good points--but men are too easily manipulated, too ego-invested, and too overly optimistic of the relationship fitness of girls who show them interest to tell them things like, "Well, she's probably just making you wait cause she's a 'quality girl' and 'isn't going to sleep around on you since she made you jump through all those hoops.' "

Is waiting it out a smart decision on the part of the woman? Yes; it's an effective strategy depending on what she's looking for and I can respect that but it's not just 'quality girls' that adopt this strategy. There are girls who've been run through, who've been pumped and dumped and see that you're a nice guy, a little naive, and, well, all her friends are posting relationship photos on FB and it's been a while since she got to post photos like that and she'll get to prove she's not just a girl guys use for sex--and those same girls will adopt this strategy to deceive men into believing that they are something that they aren't. Now, if a guy has some experience, he can make those discernments but most guys simply don't have enough experience and don't come across as nonjudgmental enough for girls to ever really open up with the way they can with guys they know are just in it for sex or that they know they probably don't have a realistic shot at tying them down for a relationship.

Better to ere on the side of caution--especially in 2016. I'm a pretty nonjudgmental dude and (after I got rid of a lot of guilt, shame, and faulty social program--thanks SS!) unapologetically sexual; girls tend to be pretty open with me. A 'good girl' age 20--a girl who emanates innocence and femininity, etc. and who guys would like to think is a saint--is probably on her second hand at least. Does this make her a bad person? No. But if she's making you wait, she's being disingenuous. And it only goes upwards from there. She's been burned, has baggage, etc or you seem like an easy mark.

In fact, I've noticed a pattern where higher count girls (once you learn the right questions to ask and all the code words and trickle truths for how girls reveal that type of thing) are more likely to try to make me wait, since they're not confident in their ability to tie me down with just sex, since all the sex they've given out hasn't been effective in tying down other guys like me. At that point, I usually wish them well--I do legitimately respect them for trying something different--and it'll probably work for them on the next guy.

But for the highest quality girls in their physical prime, they don't worry about coming across as slvtty--because they're not. They don't worry that you're a player--because they've never gotten played. And they don't worry that you'll bail after sex--because they're confident in the other things they have to offer. If she's had bad experiences with other guys then that sucks, but it's not exactly my bill to foot.

 

[marmel75]

You make some good points--but men are too easily manipulated, too ego-invested, and too overly optimistic of the relationship fitness of girls who show them interest to tell them things like, "Well, she's probably just making you wait cause she's a 'quality girl' and 'isn't going to sleep around on you since she made you jump through all those hoops.' "

Is waiting it out a smart decision on the part of the woman? Yes; it's an effective strategy depending on what she's looking for and I can respect that but it's not just 'quality girls' that adopt this strategy. There are girls who've been run through, who've been pumped and dumped and see that you're a nice guy, a little naive, and, well, all her friends are posting relationship photos on FB and it's been a while since she got to post photos like that and she'll get to prove she's not just a girl guys use for sex--and those same girls will adopt this strategy to deceive men into believing that they are something that they aren't. Now, if a guy has some experience, he can make those discernments but most guys simply don't have enough experience and don't come across as nonjudgmental enough for girls to ever really open up with the way they can with guys they know are just in it for sex or that they know they probably don't have a realistic shot at tying them down for a relationship.

Better to ere on the side of caution--especially in 2016. I'm a pretty nonjudgmental dude and (after I got rid of a lot of guilt, shame, and faulty social program--thanks SS!) unapologetically sexual; girls tend to be pretty open with me. A 'good girl' age 20--a girl who emanates innocence and femininity, etc. and who guys would like to think is a saint--is probably on her second hand at least. Does this make her a bad person? No. But if she's making you wait, she's being disingenuous. And it only goes upwards from there. She's been burned, has baggage, etc or you seem like an easy mark.

In fact, I've noticed a pattern where higher count girls (once you learn the right questions to ask and all the code words and trickle truths for how girls reveal that type of thing) are more likely to try to make me wait, since they're not confident in their ability to tie me down with just sex, since all the sex they've given out hasn't been effective in tying down other guys like me. At that point, I usually wish them well--I do legitimately respect them for trying something different--and it'll probably work for them on the next guy.

But for the highest quality girls in their physical prime, they don't worry about coming across as slvtty--because they're not. They don't worry that you're a player--because they've never gotten played. And they don't worry that you'll bail after sex--because they're confident in the other things they have to offer. If she's had bad experiences with other guys then that sucks, but it's not exactly my bill to foot.

Pretty much my thoughts...don't make me pay because you made previous poor decisions. Learn how to make better decisions for yourself.

 

[ritapita20]

You make some good points--but men are too easily manipulated, too ego-invested, and too overly optimistic of the relationship fitness of girls who show them interest to tell them things like, "Well, she's probably just making you wait cause she's a 'quality girl' and 'isn't going to sleep around on you since she made you jump through all those hoops.' "

Is waiting it out a smart decision on the part of the woman? Yes; it's an effective strategy depending on what she's looking for and I can respect that but it's not just 'quality girls' that adopt this strategy. There are girls who've been run through, who've been pumped and dumped and see that you're a nice guy, a little naive, and, well, all her friends are posting relationship photos on FB and it's been a while since she got to post photos like that and she'll get to prove she's not just a girl guys use for sex--and those same girls will adopt this strategy to deceive men into believing that they are something that they aren't. Now, if a guy has some experience, he can make those discernments but most guys simply don't have enough experience and don't come across as nonjudgmental enough for girls to ever really open up with the way they can with guys they know are just in it for sex or that they know they probably don't have a realistic shot at tying them down for a relationship.

Better to ere on the side of caution--especially in 2016. I'm a pretty nonjudgmental dude and (after I got rid of a lot of guilt, shame, and faulty social program--thanks SS!) unapologetically sexual; girls tend to be pretty open with me. A 'good girl' age 20--a girl who emanates innocence and femininity, etc. and who guys would like to think is a saint--is probably on her second hand at least. Does this make her a bad person? No. But if she's making you wait, she's being disingenuous. And it only goes upwards from there. She's been burned, has baggage, etc or you seem like an easy mark.

In fact, I've noticed a pattern where higher count girls (once you learn the right questions to ask and all the code words and trickle truths for how girls reveal that type of thing) are more likely to try to make me wait, since they're not confident in their ability to tie me down with just sex, since all the sex they've given out hasn't been effective in tying down other guys like me. At that point, I usually wish them well--I do legitimately respect them for trying something different--and it'll probably work for them on the next guy.

But for the highest quality girls in their physical prime, they don't worry about coming across as slvtty--because they're not. They don't worry that you're a player--because they've never gotten played. And they don't worry that you'll bail after sex--because they're confident in the other things they have to offer. If she's had bad experiences with other guys then that sucks, but it's not exactly my bill to foot.

Sigh. You can still be a top quality girl and still get played. Guys will jump through more hoops just to get sex if a top qualify girl because they know we're harder to get. A man will wine and dine you for months, say all the right things, even will speak about a future with you just to finally get sex from you and disappear. It happens all the time. I waited until I was 21 to lose my v-card toguy a i had been seeing for a year and guess what? Turned out he had a gf and I never heard from him again. Has nothing to do with making you pay for *our* poor decisions. Again, unless you've been in a woman's shoes you have no idea. You have two women who don't know each other saying the exact same thing. Who would know better about why women withhold from having sex than a woman?

 

[fastlife]

Sigh. You can still be a top quality girl and still get played.

But if you're a 'top quality girl' your self-concept won't be dependent on whether or not you 'got played.' Is sex the prize? And by framing sex as the prize, something to be earned, do you not see how it'd attract guys who look at you as an object to be won?

People lose interest in objects. If you're using sex as a tool to achieve an agenda, then that's not high quality behavior; that's manipulation.

Guys will jump through more hoops just to get sex if a top qualify girl because they know we're harder to get.

Again, look at how you view yourself. You're not an irreducible, self-actualized person to experience, just something to get (with the expectation of reciprocated value--i.e. they must give something up).

A man* will wine and dine you for months, say all the right things, even will speak about a future with you just to finally get sex from you and disappear. It happens all the time.

*'Men' who also view sex as something that has to be earned and qualified for--and not a potential shared human experience. Do you not see how you're playing right into their Madonna/***** complex (hint--it's binary and you're trying to play one side of it to inform the other). Other guys will view you as closed-off, inauthentic, etc. Not saying to jump into bed with every guy off the bat--but be honest about who you are and be honest with yourself.

I waited until I was 21 to lose my v-card toguy a i had been seeing for a year and guess what? Turned out he had a gf and I never heard from him again. Has nothing to do with making you pay for *our* poor decisions.

So double down and let's repeat behavior that didn't work. Good plan. Cause any self-respecting guy is gonna go 2 months, 6 months, a year with no sex on the whims of a girl who's holding out to get something. Again, you have to feel out a guy and see what he's about and not every guy's gonna be honest about that sh1t--but most of us (including guys) see what we want to see instead of interacting with the real, live, human-being in front of us.

Again, unless you've been in a woman's shoes you have no idea. You have two women who don't know each other saying the exact same thing. Who would know better about why women withhold from having sex than a woman?

LOL. Yeah, because women are always so clear and self-honest about their own motivations... You have hundreds of thousands of women on the internet all saying the exact same things about how a guy should act to get the girl--nice, sweet, respectful, patient, communicative, open, etc.--who would know more than women what women respond to? The whole reason for this site existing, and the reason western women, as a whole, have become so unhappy and frustrated in their relationships or lack thereof, is that 1.) Women in their prime will naturally respond most viscerally to men who aren't likely to commit to them due to disparity in their respective SMVs in favor of the male (see guy you made wait a year--he had tons of subcomms that made him more attractive to you than other guys who were waiting due to a lack of other options) and 2.) The societal strictures that controlled female sexuality have all been eroded in the past 100 years (there's a reason why every successful civilization on earth had slvt-shaming, (mostly) arranged (or at least parentally & societally approved) marriages, etc).

That's not to discount the wisdom and insight that folks like @BeExcellent and @LiveYourDream bring to the forum. But you have to look at their ages. Don't get me wrong, they're both excellent posters, extremely self-aware, & strike me as being far more happier, fulfilled and self-actualized than other women in that age bracket that I've interacted with. But rewind to when they were in their biological prime--do you think they would be capable or motivated to achieve the same level of introspection they have now? Hint--they wouldn't be on this forum. I'm definitely empathetic to the Catch-22 women face in the SMP--we've all been dealt a lot of misinformation and faulty social conditioning--but it's not my job or OP's job to pick up the pieces of a problem we didn't create and are powerless to correct. Not a blame game or anything like that, but I'll take the girl with less emotional baggage and hang ups around sex 10 times out of 10.

 

[BeExcellent]

@fastlife I appreciate your insight a great deal here and on many of your posts. You have a great deal of wisdom for a man in his 20's.

Your first post talked about discernment. Yes. Discernment is the hard part for men or women, especially early on in a dating matter. I also agree the ego gets in the way. But your assertion that women are playing men, true to varying degrees, is the same in reverse. Plenty of men are playing women to varying degrees too.

Many of the posts here are in some way or another about discerning something someone else is doing; about interpreting intent.

Ultimately we can't determine someone else's intent reliably. Some are better at it than others but nobody is 100% accurate. So a wise person observes behavior over time; a mantra of this site.

Everyone has an agenda, all people do. One way around whether or not you recognize someone else's agenda is to do what you want to do irregardless of anyone else. That to me is a good thing and the foundation of inner game.

It takes some amount of time in life to arrive at this realization. So people reach it very early. I did; I think you have. Some people never arrive to that realization all their lives.

In dating this means you do as you please and the woman will resist when and if you reach her boundaries. At that point you decide either to respect her boundaries or to find another woman with different boundaries. You retain your power of choice at all times.

A woman worth having will do the same (retain her power of choice). Ideally both people are secure enough to retain their own power of choice and to respect the choices of the other person too. They begin considering the other person in their choices. Ideally the man chooses to respect & lead; the woman chooses to respect, defer & submit. But both choose freely.

This consideration of another is at the core of any good relationship.

It does not mean you'll never get hurt. That risk is ever present when you choose to reveal yourself to someone else, physically or emotionally.

The hard part is remaining self-assured through those hurts and then being willing to expose oneself to that risk again. I did struggle with that some as a very young woman when in college a 2 year relationship (my first sexual relationship, and second relationship period) ended in heartbreak.

What came out of that experience at 22 was my realization that I was responsible for my own happiness and that I had allowed myself to be externally validated in that relationship. I would not be who I am or where I am today without that experience.

Insecure and immature people have a hard time with this...again why being self validated is so important.

From your perspective I'm past my prime. I would disagree. I'm in it now

Let's be honest. Men have a tendency to objectify beautiful women.

When a beautiful woman is seen as an object first and a person second it I think it makes her go one of two ways. She either learns to exploit the fact that men objectify her (gold diggers, slvts, etc.) or she learns to be patient because she wants to see if a man appreciates only the reason he objectifies her or if he appreciates who she is as a person. I fall into the latter category and always have. I still got my heart broken by a couple of men along the way, but this made me better, not bitter. Men I was involved with got their hearts broken at times too...just as happens with most people along the way.

So to me the whole question the OP is asking must be answered from his own perspective. He needs to set aside his ego and determine what he wants. From there the decision should be clear.

I think the whole problem is he wants his other plates AND this woman. Those two things appear mutually exclusive to me as I said before. So he needs to make his choice OR she will make hers. She seems already to have chosen not to sleep with him...now she may decide to leave altogether...or he may. Both people are having to clarify how much they value the other.

 

[marmel75]

[QUOTE="BeExcellent]
In dating this means you do as you please and the woman will resist when and if you reach her boundaries. At that point you decide either to respect her boundaries or to find another woman with different boundaries. You retain your power of choice at all times. [/QUOTE]

No, it means you push her boundaries to see if its an actual boundary or if its just a "Is this guy a pvssy?" boundary where if he doesn't get past it he loses due to not being enough of a man.

Sure there will be some hard boundaries that you will have to respect, but a lot of boundaries can be pretty fluid depending on how skillful you are and how hot and bothered you can get them...a lot changes in the moment.

 

[CMNILS87]

Since he isn't getting sex yet the question becomes why he is interested in her. If all he wants is sex, then yes, he should drop her. If he wants something more than just sex that is different.

Some women (myself included) are smarter than just becoming one of the sex options on a man's menu.

Such women would rather hold out for a relationship for any number of reasons, not the least of which is protecting one's health, and life is too short to waste time on people who just want the quick physical fixation. No thank you.

I personally do not have sex on a first date because 1. I value myself more than that and 2. There is no way to know someone well enough (if you are more interested in a relationship than JUST sex) on a first date to determine whether or not the man is motivated only by the lay or if the man really enjoys a woman's company for more than just that. It takes a while to figure this out.

There are women who will only have sex after the relationship becomes exclusive. Typically these are your better quality women. That doesn't mean they don't like the man or aren't turned on by him, or don't want to fvck him, it just means they understand that the only means of knowing whether or not a man is willing to invest emotionally is by waiting to have sex. Trust me they are waiting too! It isn't a bargaining chip so much as it protects one from both STDs and unnecessary emotional pain. Why have sex with someone who doesn't care about you? I know people do it all the time, but it still isn't a good idea if what you want is a LTR.

I'm going to observe that a man cares about me by what he does for a while before I go to bed with him. Especially if I really like him. I've always been that way. This weeds out the men who want just sex pretty quickly, and it also weeds out the guys who could take or leave a woman.

I understand my SMV and this has never created any issues for me. When a woman waits to have sex it also allows her to evaluate the man she is with from a more objective place too, let's just be honest, and women are observing male behavior just as much as men are observing women's behavior.

It really amazes me how many guys get on here and preach that you can't turn a ho into a housewife...but yet those same guys want to screw ho's and also have quality women in the rotation. At some point you can't do both.

Screwing lots of ho's and finding a quality woman are mutually exclusive. So it depends what the goal is.

Smart women with high SMV know this and they (wisely) hold out for emotional investment, commitment, LTR or the like. Once the man shows his investment these are the women who are more able to really give a man the emotional depth that men want. And the men are less worried that their woman is apt to sleep around or cheat because she refused to screw him right out of the starting gate.

This isn't really rocket science.

I think with @andy87 is in limbo with her right now. I like your view, but it's a double edged sword. The girl wants to wait to see if a man emotionally invests in her, but the other side of the coin after 5-6 dates is the guy starts to wonder if her attraction to him is high enough to actually sleep with him. You could take it farther and say he might be in that gray area where he's unsure about her interest and maybe he's a back up plate that she's spinning while she's dating other guys too. That's the predicament I think he's in right now. You got this gal that's been on 6 dates with him and telling him to wait. You say she's protecting her heart. Most likely.... The chance of her holding off and weighing her options of him against another man could be high too. That would piss me off we went on that many dates and she's comparing me to other guys. Just my 2 cents. If he wants exclusive continue cautiously, as a plate the goose is cooked.

But you broke the cardinal rule. Dont ever sleep in a woman's bed and not sleep with her. Don't do it again. If she's comfortable enough to invite you to cuddle in bed...

 

[BeExcellent]

@marmel75
Correct. I agree a man should find the real boundaries, the hard boundaries. I realize some women don't have them. Others do.

@CMNILS87
The OP doesn't know her intent, and he isn't being decisive either. I don't think staying in her bed without sex is all bad. He didn't automatically mess up there. If she really likes him and is sweet to him but she really is NOT going to have sex, he could have left. He didn't. I agree he seems in limbo & not sure what to think...he was not expecting this restraint from her, he doesn't like not getting sex, but he kind of respects that she isn't "easy" either.

Things always get the most uncertain at this juncture in my experience. It's a 4th down. Either punt or go for it. It's his judgement call.

 

[CMNILS87]

@marmel75
Correct. I agree a man should find the real boundaries, the hard boundaries. I realize some women don't have them. Others do.

@CMNILS87
The OP doesn't know her intent, and he isn't being decisive either. I don't think staying in her bed without sex is all bad. He didn't automatically mess up there. If she really likes him and is sweet to him but she really is NOT going to have sex, he could have left. He didn't. I agree he seems in limbo & not sure what to think...he was not expecting this restraint from her, he doesn't like not getting sex, but he kind of respects that she isn't "easy" either.

Things always get the most uncertain at this juncture in my experience. It's a 4th down. Either punt or go for it. It's his judgement call.

I'd agree with that ideology and with marmel and the boundaries. I've done the stay over in a girls bed after a date and not pulled the trigger a few times way back in my early 20's and I always got burned and the chick basically dropped me, ghosted, or pulled the nice guy text. I think the only way for him to know her intentions with waiting would be to ask her why she's waiting in an intimate setting so she can't run from the question and deflect. But that can also be problematic in itself and possibly ruin attraction. Talking about the boundary instead of actually testing it may cause loss of lust/attraction?!? But if she's super sweet, and a good girl, I don't think it would ruin it.

 

[ubercat]

My current girlfriend made me wait for sex until the 4th date. Which is one more than I normally give before I ghost. I'm sure if she had the chance she would have made me wait longer. I had 2 other girls on the go at that time. Of course I didn't have to say a word she just knew - they always know.

But what kept me in the game with her was that things were escalating every date. Personally I'd push it, arrange a meal and movie night at your place or a night away somewhere together. I'd rather push the issue and risk losing the girl then be stuck in that grey area where you can feel your balls shriveling.

And I'm amazed that @marmel75 hasn't given you his favourite and most excellent advice. Next time you are alone with her just grab her hand and put it on your ****. One way or another that will nuke the hell out of the friend zone

 

[andy87]

Sorry for late reply guys been busy with work, all good responses i also forgot too mention she has the tramp stamp tattoo and belly button piercing should i just run now? Lol

 

[MrWood]

tramp stamp tattoo and belly button piercing should i just run now? Lol

yes, and stop laughing

 

[ohrein]

Interesting thread. Some really good insights on both sides of the situation.

Note: My use of the word relationship applies to both hook ups, friends or LTRs. I'm not using it to mean only LTR.

I just realized after spitting out the far too long rant below, that it doesn't really apply to the OP's comment, but in more severe situations. I think she obviously has some hang up on sex but that amount of waiting doesn't seem absurd. It's getting close to the point where it really should be happening though so it's up to you how much longer you wait. I wouldn't wait too long though. Someone posted some great advice about just being honest with her about it. I think that's the best approach personally. Confidently explaining what you expect from a relationship is the ideal solution.

Onto my rant. No TLDR. Just don't read it if you don't feel like being bored to death.

The concept of relationships is something that's been on my mind lately. I've been on and off with this woman for a couple of years. We were first and foremost great friends. I'm not stating this is a good or bad approach, it's just how it started. She was attracted to me from the word go but was in a relationship. She never really kept me around as an orbiter or anything, it was just that we were in the same social group. In fact we never really talked or hung out intentionally.

Anyway, over the course of a few years we went from friends to ONS to friends to hooking up to friends to dating for a brief period. What I found interesting was the different dynamics each label had on her interactions with me. The singular difference was sex.

Disclaimer : Heavy amount of opinion incoming. In my opinion, what most people view as a relationship is simply a subconscious expression of the biological imperative; the evolutionary drive to procreate. Why? Because if sex is the primary difference between a friend and a relationship and if sex is simply a biological drive, then that is the only conclusion. To me, this lines up perfectly with everything on this site. Hypergamy, being alpha and most importantly to this thread, women withholding sex.

While I appreciate the female insights in the thread, it's based in very blue pill thinking. Now, I'm not trying to dehumanize the entire concept of relationships, but I think it's poor information for guys trying to get out of this mindset. There was nothing the female posters said that I haven't heard before from women myself in the OP's situation. The problem is, from your perspective it is reasonable but from ours it's not. BeExcellent addressed this well in stating it really comes down to each person to make a decision that suits them.

I can say that having done it several times myself, waiting around for women is never the right choice. Women who make you wait too long for any parts of a relationship be it intimacy, sex or otherwise are usually damaged. FastLife nailed this with his replies. Having to wait for sex isn't about not getting sex, although that literally hurts from a physiological point of view. It's what that behavior communicates. Lack of investment in the relationship either intentionally because she's not sure about you OR she's interested in you but she has issues. I've never had a healthy relationship come out of waiting around for a woman to start investing. The quality women who see you as a quality man do it straight away. They want to **** you, they want to stay over, they want to cook for you.

In fact, the worst interactions I've had with women are a result of ignoring this and white knighting. Men lead, women follow. If she's not following, she's not interested and you're wasting your time. There is no hard rules as to how long is normal but if you think it's either too early or becoming weirdly too long, you're probably best being very upfront and testing exactly how much she is invested in you. Don't want to waste your time after all.

One last thing, you should never be cruel to women with these kind of issues. I'm not saying be an ******* and dump her via text telling her it's because she won't suck your ****. But it's reasonable to expect sex and intimacy at certain points in the relationship. At a certain point, her not wanting to **** you is WEIRD, regardless of the cause. I'm not interested in the justifications on the female side because I'm not saying she's doing anything wrong in exercising her right to make choices. In fact there's one experience of mine in which I felt nothing but sorry for the poor girl. She had major issues. But at a certain point, it's no longer acceptable to pass that onto other people. Don't feel guilty for walking away. You deserve a healthy relationship and part of that is sex.