Men pedestalizing other men

[LiveYourDream]

I understand the error and costs of men placing women on pedestals. I understand how a man inherently diminishes his sense of center and sense of strength in doing so. I understand how by design, it reinforces a sense of lack and the feeling that he "needs" whatever appears separate, and up on the pedestal. I understand that it perpetuates oneitis and the resultant lack of clarity in his perception and thinking. I get that placing a woman on a pedestal is a dangerous trap for a man.

What I don't understand is men placing other men on pedestals and how men view and experience that themselves and in watching other men do it.

I observe men presenting or positioning themselves to be pedestalized by other men. The egos and hunger are apparent and not as cleverly disguised as they might intend. What baffles me is how quick other men can be to jump at the opportunity, to pedastalize certain men. It baffles me. It's as if by doing so, somehow they think it raises them up too, or something. I don't get it. What drives them to do it? Aren't the dangers I listed above, just as inherent on some level, as if he is pedestalizing a woman?

Is there a blue pill/red pill version? On some level is it just standard male culture/behavior? To me, it seems to be outside the realm of responding to an alpha male or leadership. (From my perspective, actualized human alpha males operate on indifference and thus any pedestalization is not actively sought. From my perspective leadership can be by agreement and does not require a pedestal, unless "the leader" demands it.)

I find it odd. (It's an absolute attraction killer, for me.) I am also really clear I don't understand it and what the experience is for men. Maybe it's not odd at all, for men amongst men? Please help me understand. What is it like to put another man on a pedestal and why would you? What is it like to watch other men do that?

To be really clear--I am not intending to shame anyone's behavior. I am just looking to understand more. Any thoughts or insight would be greatly appreciated.

TL;DR Men pedestalizing other men (not about sexuality). Why do men do it? Does it not carry somewhat similar self sacrifices/costs, as to pedestalizing a woman? Does it reflect weakness or is it different or even considered neutral among men, because it's man to man? What is like to watch, other men pedestalize a man you respect or maybe a man you don't? How do men perceive, understand and experience this?

 

[phillies]

I understand the error and costs of men placing women on pedestals. I understand how a man inherently diminishes his sense of center and sense of strength in doing so. I understand how by design, it reinforces a sense of lack and the feeling that he "needs" whatever appears separate, and up on the pedestal. I understand that it perpetuates oneitis and the resultant lack of clarity in his perception and thinking. I get that placing a woman on a pedestal is a dangerous trap for a man.

What I don't understand is men placing other men on pedestals and how men view and experience that themselves and in watching other men do it.

I observe men presenting or positioning themselves to be pedestalized by other men. The egos and hunger are apparent and not as cleverly disguised as they might intend. What baffles me is how quick other men can be to jump at the opportunity, to pedastalize certain men. It baffles me. It's as if by doing so, somehow they think it raises them up too, or something. I don't get it. What drives them to do it? Aren't the dangers I listed above, just as inherent on some level, as if he is pedestalizing a woman?

Is there a blue pill/red pill version? On some level is it just standard male culture/behavior? To me, it seems to be outside the realm of responding to an alpha male or leadership. (From my perspective, actualized human alpha males operate on indifference and thus any pedestalization is not actively sought. From my perspective leadership can be by agreement and does not require a pedestal, unless "the leader" demands it.)

I find it odd. (It's an absolute attraction killer, for me.) I am also really clear I don't understand it and what the experience is for men. Maybe it's not odd at all, for men amongst men? Please help me understand. What is it like to put another man on a pedestal and why would you? What is it like to watch other men do that?

To be really clear--I am not intending to shame anyone's behavior. I am just looking to understand more. Any thoughts or insight would be greatly appreciated.

TL;DR Men pedestalizing other men (not about sexuality). Why do men do it? Does it not carry somewhat similar self sacrifices/costs, as to pedestalizing a woman? Does it reflect weakness or is it different or even considered neutral among men, because it's man to man? What is like to watch, other men pedestalize a man you respect or maybe a man you don't? How do men perceive, understand and experience this?

No the dangers aren't the same because normal men aren't trying to fvck other men, which changes a lot. It's normal for men to respect or admire other men from time to time, but if they are just doing it to get accepted, then sure that is unhealthy.

For example I admire Donald trump who will be our great leader. He's the only candidate that's qualified for the job, well male candidate, women can't be qualified.

 

[LiveYourDream]

No the dangers aren't the same because normal men aren't trying to fvck other men, which changes a lot. It's normal for people to respect or admire others, but if they are just doing it to get accepted, then sure that is unhealthy.

For example I admire Donald trump who will be our great leader.

From my perspective, admiration and respect do not require a pedestal. One does not need to diminish oneself in order to appreciate the value of another.

 

[fastlife]

Just a holdover from the natural male social hierarchy. Men are always jockeying for position and status--usually subconsciously motivated by access to mating opportunities--to the extent that they perceive their ability to attain that status without endangering their current status. So a man pedestalizing another man is kind of consolidating on his position in the pack as being irreconcilably lower, which is safer and removes a degree of agency and responsibility. If I can live vicariously through some celeb, or Chad, or manosphere writer, then why would I need to take the necessary steps to actualize my own potential--which is a lot of hard work and requires a ton of risk and the potential for failure and judgement (part of the male social hierarchy is based on keeping men in their place, or at least below your own).

I'd say that all of my closest male friends are the ones who have a strong sense of self-worth--not all of them are Alpha in the sense that they pull a ton of hot girls (though some do; most of them do all right for themselves; one or two are too nice to women for their own good). I cut out any sycophants and flatterers a couple years ago--the thing I value about my friends is that none of them are afraid to put me in my place and tell me like it is. I'd say all of them are very secure, which is incredibly rare for either gender. Even some 'high value' males--at least in my experience with high level womanizers and a couple minor celebrities, will pedestalize you for not pedestalizing them and for not caving to social jockeying.

I've also noticed that as I've become more secure in myself and less reliant on external validation, my taste in women has changed. I really don't get the whole appeal of finding a girl with 'super high interest'--I don't want that sh1t anymore; I'd rather have a girl with a strong sense of self who respects herself and isn't overly impressed, who lets me go off and do my thing and doesn't chase me but is compliant and pleasant whenever I come back around.

 

[phillies]

From my perspective, admiration and respect do not require a pedestal. One does not need to diminish oneself in order to appreciate the value of another.

Pedestal is a subjective term. When men do it to women it's driven by sexual energy. With men it's not. That's a huge difference.

Only insecure people pleasers diminish themselves when admiring a man.

 

[LiveYourDream]

Pedestal is a subjective term. When men do it to women it's driven by sexual energy. With men it's not. That's a huge difference.

Now that you have clarified that (sarcasm), what drives it for men with men?

 

[phillies]

Now that you have clarified that, what drives it for men with men?

Insecurity and the desire for acceptance.

 

[phillies]

Now that you have clarified that (sarcasm), what drives it for men with men?

Well if you understood that difference, how can you not realize this isn't even comparable.

No need to give me lip, if I wanted that I'd pull down your pants. Young lady

 

[LiveYourDream]

If I can live vicariously through some celeb, or Chad, or manosphere writer, then why would I need to take the necessary steps to actualize my own potential--which is a lot of hard work and requires a ton of risk and the potential for failure and judgement (part of the male social hierarchy is based on keeping men in their place, or at least below your own).

On an experience level, when a man pedestalizes another man, is it accurate to say then that doing so gives him a sense of relief from expectations either his own or those of other men?

the thing I value about my friends is that none of them are afraid to put me in my place and tell me like it is.

I value truth above all. I couldn't care less if it hurts my feelings. Those with whom I share my time and energy know this with absolute clarity. Someone holding back authenticity or truth with me, for fear of hurting my feelings, is someone who does not know me well.

Even some 'high value' males--at least in my experience with high level womanizers and a couple minor celebrities, will pedestalize you for not pedestalizing them and for not caving to social jockeying.

I see this too.

I've also noticed that as I've become more secure in myself and less reliant on external validation, my taste in women has changed. I really don't get the whole appeal of finding a girl with 'super high interest'--I don't want that sh1t anymore; I'd rather have a girl with a strong sense of self who respects herself and isn't overly impressed, who lets me go off and do my thing and doesn't chase me but is compliant and pleasant whenever I come back around.

There is the 'super high interest' of a woman who doesn't feel whole and is trying to feed her sense of herself and her place in the world, off of you. There can also be the 'super high interest' woman who is already secure in who she is and who already feels whole and is not seeking to find either from you. This woman can have super high interest yet from a place appreciation for your being and your interactions together, rather than need or an emptiness trying to be filled. Each embracing/embodying wholeness and freedom, together you are set up to experience the delights of masculine and feminine play/polarity/connection, with depth and expansion, unknown to many, from my perspective.

More questions on topic: Does a man sacrifice his own self respect or the respect of his peers to some degree, when he pedestalizes another man? Are other men simply indifferent to it or does it ever change their view of the man doing the pedestalizing or of a man seeking to be pedestalized?

 

[taiyuu_otoko]

Men pedestalizing other men (not about sexuality). Why do men do it?

Humans are primates. Primates are self-organizing, hierarchical pack animals. Stick a group of men in a room, and they'll self-organize top down.

Most of our behavior is not consciously chosen. It's instinctive.

Your questions is similar to asking why fat people eat so much when they know it's unhealthy. Or why some guys can't stop jacking it (or doing any other instinctively driven behavior) when they know rationally it messes up their lives.

There are few rational reasons behind human behavior.

 

[LiveYourDream]

Humans are primates. Primates are self-organizing, hierarchical pack animals. Stick a group of men in a room, and they'll self-organize top down.

Most of our behavior is not consciously chosen. It's instinctive.

Your questions is similar to asking why fat people eat so much when they know it's unhealthy. Or why some guys can't stop jacking it (or doing any other instinctively driven behavior) when they know rationally it messes up their lives.

There are few rational reasons behind human behavior.

This is exactly why I am asking. I assumed it was primarily a conscious choice, as was the positioning that followed it. That clears up a lot, all by itself. Thank you.

 

[SeymourCake]

Man, just like other animals in the animal kingdom abide through social hierarchy. This is designed by nature.

It is, however important that you place no one above you.

"I have often wondered how it is that every man loves himself more than all the rest of men, but yet sets less value on his own opinion of himself than on the opinion of others. " - Marcus Aurelius

 

[LiveYourDream]

Man, just like other animals in the animal kingdom abide through social hierarchy. This is designed by nature.

It is, however important that you place no one above you.

"I have often wondered how it is that every man loves himself more than all the rest of men, but yet sets less value on his own opinion of himself than on the opinion of others. " - Marcus Aurelius

I agree that it's dangerous to put anyone above you or value someone else's opinion of you, above your own. How do you perceive what men do? Do you perceive a man pedestalizing another man as a differentiation between conscious and unconscious behavior, an instinctual response or perhaps a choice resulting from his individual level of conscious awareness, or something else? How do you resolve living in stated social heiarchy and placing no one above you? Is there really nothing to resolve in your experience? Is it simply your internal perspective that you place no one above you, that matters or do your actions and external circumstances need to match?

 

[ubercat]

Quite a brave new world Slant on this thread so far.

As long as the man is generally well balanced I don't see how it is an issue. I have sporting heroes e.g. Rodger Federer because I respect his love of the game and it's past champions, his ability to adapt, his self reliance and that his enormous achievements haven't made him a huge douche.

Do I think that makes him perfect - Hell no. And he won't be the greatest of all time for long Djokovic will surpass him. But it could be a long time before anyone surpasses him with such Style.

When I'm playing tennis in a tight match and my opponents making some dodgy line calls I think of King Rogers example and just work harder. So you see your heroes can be used as inspiration to improve yourself.

And we recognise that on this board by providing the ability to follow posters for their expertise and insights.

 

[zekko]

Some men are natural followers and have to hero worship other men and be guided by them, every step of the way. That sounds like the real beta to me. There's an old saying "Every man is my superior in that I can learn from him", and that's very true. But a man should be able to think for himself - to gather all the available information and advice and decide the best course.

At least a man can use another man as a role model, which is not usually the case with a woman. A woman is usually pedestalized for her beauty, which is not an effective masculine trait that he can or should try to emulate. Also, there is an entire legal system set up to strip males of their assets if this pedestalization goes too far.

 

[LiveFreeX]

I see my posts and phillies were deleted. Now you know who controls the direction the forum is heading.

 

[phillies]

I see my posts and phillies were deleted. Now you know who controls the direction the forum is heading.

Oh wow. That's just not cool.

 

[yuppee]

some people just appreciate mastery shown by others. Others cannot do so. It's a sad thing when you can't get past yourself, and everything just HAS to be about YOU, in some way.

 

[LiveYourDream]

As long as the man is generally well balanced I don't see how it is an issue. I have sporting heroes e.g. Rodger Federer because I respect his love of the game and it's past champions, his ability to adapt, his self reliance and that his enormous achievements haven't made him a huge douche.

When I'm playing tennis in a tight match and my opponents making some dodgy line calls I think of King Rogers example and just work harder. So you see your heroes can be used as inspiration to improve yourself.

we recognise that on this board by providing the ability to follow posters for their expertise and insights.

I also think having heroes that one admires and respects and uses as inspiration to improve themselves, is a great motivator and road map to greater success, when done from a healthy place.

In your example a man can already feel confident and good about himself and from that place look to a man who is more skilled, as an example of his own additional growth potential. That I get. The man in your example is not diminished in his view of himself, while appreciating another man's strengths. He can feel powerful where he is and move further along his journey from that place. That is attractive! That is also a smart man choosing to use another's wisdom and experience to expedite his own personal growth.

What I see more clearly now is what actually also brought the questions forward for me, is seeing men who are NOT yet centered in strength or confidence, who suddenly raise another man above them onto a pedestal. My observation is that for those men, raising another 'seems' NOT to add to the to their own sense of strength, but actually seems diminishes to it further at least initially). In this second example man who once primarily lacked confidence, now he adds a host of new additional self judgements on top, as he (from his place of imbalance) inventories the distance between his already challenged sense of himself, and compares it to the man he has recently put on a pedestal. The second example man uses what he sees to further judge the already present inadequacy he perceives in himself while adding more judgements on top.

Perhaps the distinction I notice is example one man is already confident and adding a hero inspires him further which eventually adds to his confidence.

Example two man is not yet confident and appears further diminished (at least initially) instead. This is what I perceived a man putting another man on a pedestal to be. I thought doing so assumed a weakening of one to raise another up.

I perceived men, example one, who were already confident and in their strength as able to appreciate another man's skills and learn from him, without the illusion or process of having to pedestalizing him to do so. Clearly, I am still learning here.

 

[LiveYourDream]

Some men are natural followers and have to hero worship other men and be guided by them, every step of the way. That sounds like the real beta to me.

I'd call that beta too. Women will always feel more attraction to a man who leads than one who follows.