Different values: When is it worth the effort?

[OldFashioned]

I found the marriage builders website through this forum a while ago, and an article in particular there caught my interest. The author basically talks about 5 criteria that couples who are a good fit for each other have in common (based on his counseling experience): Similar intelligence, energy levels, social interest, cultural background, and similar values.

http://www.marriagebuilders.com//graphic/mbi5068b_qa.html

My girlfriend is a pretty good fit for me with the first four criteria, but we have some dissimilar values that have recently come to light.

She's an atheist (though goes all out celebrating Christmas) and I believe in God, though I don't go to church regularly. I gave her a book on Intelligent Design for Christmas and I'm reading a copy simultaneously. I asked about her thoughts on it the other day, and she doesn't agree with the main point the author makes and cites evolutionary reasons why. (Which is kind of funny because the author dispels the exact reasoning she uses).

Obviously her atheism is a deeply held belief. I was hoping to nudge that belief a little and open her to the possibility of a creator, since this might be a source of contention later (such as raising kids).


Her and her family are also more open than average about bodily functions. I forget how it came up in conversation, but her dad filmed her mom giving birth to her sister (including the baby coming out), and it's a family video they watched while eating dinner one night....

Another time they had asparagus for dinner, and apparently asparagus makes your urine smell, but not everyone can tell the difference in scent. So her sister went to the bathroom after dinner, and before flushing it, each family member gave it a sniff to see who could smell the difference.

Be with a women long enough and eventually you will learn all her secrets, whether you want to or not.



When you guys come across differing values, how do you manage them? When are values too different that they're a deal breaker?

 

[sodbuster]

That's for YOU to decide. But as a Divorced man, I can tell you this, you DO marry the family. They will be there for at least half the holidays, there babysitting your kids, etc. They will be there in the delivery room filming the birth of your kids or expecting YOU to do it for them. I'd watch how your father in law is treated..... if he's treated like dirt, you're next. IF mom is fat and dad just let's it slide, they will expect you to.....

 

[Desdinova]

The author basically talks about 5 criteria that couples who are a good fit for each other have in common

I took a look at those 5 criteria. I'm not sure about those being keys to making a marriage work. I firmly believe that being on the same level when it comes to respect is number one. If she keeps a bunch of guy friends and you have no female friends. Then you're not on the same respect level. Now, let's get to your issue...

Obviously her atheism is a deeply held belief. I was hoping to nudge that belief a little and open her to the possibility of a creator, since this might be a source of contention later (such as raising kids).

You're trying to convert her. Quit trying to get her to follow Jesus. I know you've been instructed to make disciples out of people, but you're only going to piss her off by doing so.

I believe you CAN make a relationship work when it comes to having different belief systems, but you need to be respectful of the other person's views. What I find is that most Christians are NOT respectful of the views of others. They strongly believe that their way is the correct way, and everyone else should believe the same.

Many Atheists are much more respectful of the views of others. They know that they'll annoy the hell out of the other person trying to convert them, so they simply let them keep their beliefs and respect their desire to follow them.

If you're going to make this relationship work, you need to be on the same page when it comes to respecting each other. Your GF obviously respects the fact that you believe in God. However, you obviously don't respect the fact that she doesn't believe in God because you're trying to convert her by getting her to read books and 5hit. Because you don't respect her beliefs, your relationship isn't going to work. You NEED to be on the same level of respect for the relationship to function successfully.

 

[OldFashioned]

That's for YOU to decide. But as a Divorced man, I can tell you this, you DO marry the family. They will be there for at least half the holidays, there babysitting your kids, etc. They will be there in the delivery room filming the birth of your kids or expecting YOU to do it for them. I'd watch how your father in law is treated..... if he's treated like dirt, you're next. IF mom is fat and dad just let's it slide, they will expect you to.....

Good point sodbuster, I hadn't thought about that aspect. I'll pay more attention to how they treat their dad, he's the only man in the family and has four daughters.

You're trying to convert her. Quit trying to get her to follow Jesus. I know you've been instructed to make disciples out of people, but you're only going to piss her off by doing so.

I hear what you're saying Desdinova, but let me clarify. I'm pretty disaffected with the church, haven't been in years. It's fairly common to group intelligent design with religion, when the idea of intelligent design is completely void of religious or faith-based arguments. It's based purely on our current understanding of things through science.

You make a good point about respect. Now that I think about it, maybe I do have less respect for my girlfriend now. She's definitely expressed her dislike of religion before.

As a scientist, she has some strange views that don't gel with mine. I work as an engineer, so it's not like we have polar opposite ways of thinking (that's not quite right since she's female and I'm male). This is one of a couple of differing views. For example, she's a big believer in man-made global warming and the need to drastically reduce the world's population, and I just don't see the science or ethical reasoning there to back that claim up.

People are entitled to their opinions of course, and I don't get worked up about differing ones. But a relationship has different standards, especially if kids are ever involved. I'm not sure I'd be good with her teaching the kids that people should stop breeding to save the earth, or that smelling urine is a family event.

Thinking about it more, it sounds like this relationship has a shelf life.

 

[Lexington]

I think trying to convert an atheist to a theist or vice versa is usually a fool's errand. One either comes to a lack of belief or a belief in something on their own.
It seems that this believing in God thing is quite important to you. Otherwise, why would you want to convince her to come to your point of view?

As a scientist, your woman is much less likely to believe intelligent design because it is not accepted in the scientific community. There are exactly zero peer-reviewed articles on intelligent design in respected scientific journals. That doesn't necessarily mean that ID is false, but you're going to have a hard time convincing a scientist of its validity.

It absolutely could be an issue in the future if you have children. Even if you are not very Church-involved now, you may find that you will want to instill religious values/beliefs in your children. If she is not onboard with this, that could lead to some friction. The way we raise our children is usually very important to us.

You should make sure that you clarify your approach to this well in advance. I know in some mixed-faith relationships, the parents agree to let the children decide on their own. In other relationships, faith may be more important to one spouse and the children are raised in that religion. Whatever you do, you should make sure that you have this issue sorted before moving forward into marriage.

 

[LiveYourDream]

Being with a woman who has different values than you may offer little friction in your relationship one on one. You are both adults, are at choice in what you believe and value, and you always have the choice to act in line with those beliefs and values or not.

The differences in values become amplified exponentially when your own child is born a blank slate and you and it's mother will instill the values that create your child's foundation in this world.

What the mother values and feels is important will be amplified and important to her, to teach her child (yes--yours), as both valued and important to them (regardless if you agree or not.) Unless you are comfortable having your child raised with the potential mother-to-be's values, she is not a good match to be the mother of your child. You may think she is just fine as a GF or LTR. Be careful and do not roll along into the future casually with her, if your desire ultimately is to have children of your own, raised according to YOUR own values.

The idea that a child will be taught both parents values, as a compromise, is usually a disguise for secretly intending to teach the child why what you value is better than what the other parent values. It also can seem like a compromise one is willing to make until your child is actually in front of you being taught something as truth that you inherently disagree with. What is it that serves the child best? When children are a future consideration for you, best to aim for shared values with any woman you allow to became a GF/LTR. It will serve not just your potential future child, but your own future peace of mind and well-being too.

 

[OldFashioned]

Very true PairPlusRoyalFlush, morality is independent of religion. Most religions do provide a moral framework and guidance for people, but you can absolutely be a moral person without religion. The classic schools of philosophy provide moral frameworks and aren't religious.


Good point Lexington, it seems like atheism is a belief for people too, and some of them defend it like a religious person would defend their beliefs. I'm not sure why this God thing is important to me, it wasn't an issue during any previous relationships. I don't plan on bringing it up again with her, and will see if she actually finishes the book, or brings it up herself.

A buddy of mine is Catholic and his wife Jewish, they agreed to raise their sons Catholic, but it does indeed put a strain on the family during the holidays where they split and do their own thing. Not sure I'd want that, probably wouldn't would practice any religion in that case.

 

[Colossus]

I think trying to convert an atheist to a theist or vice versa is usually a fool's errand. One either comes to a lack of belief or a belief in something on their own.

This.

Atheism and Deism are beliefs, any way you slice it. You can cite all the "evidence" you want, but the fact is these are personal beliefs that can be neither proven nor disproved in the scientific sense. While there are LOGICAL arguments for both, they do not constitute proof, despite what anyone thinks. By very definition, the existence of God cannot BE proven, it must be taken on faith at some level. Now people can have very harrowing or moving personal experiences that support their belief (or lack of belief) in God, but this on the level of individual experience and can rarely be used to move someone to change their own beliefs.

I believe in God and that Christ was (is) the Son of God sent to reconcile God and mankind once and for all. Many people also believe the same thing, but many do not, and have sound reasons why. It's not your job to convert them. All you can do is present your thoughts and experience, and leave it at that. Lexington was correct that is very difficult to convince someone with a scientific background that God exists, because again, it cannot be proven. What exactly would constitute this "proof", and who would believe it? You think some big paper in a journal like Nature with a complex theorem would convince anyone? People would poke holes in it all day long. Belief is a very personal thing. For me there is no doubt, but for many the doubt is just too great.

Regarding your gf, I think this is a MAJOR incompatibility issue. Maybe not so much now, but later on down the road it will be. It's more likely you will clash at sensitive times---holidays, deaths in the family, children, etc.

 

[Glumix]

Similar intelligence, energy levels, social interest, cultural background, and similar values.

This is down the road of gender equality. Nature created us so we complement each other, not to be similar.

If you have the expectation that your GF MUST be similar then it is very important to match those 5 criteria. Otherwise, you don't care, as long as you are both open minded and you have some good level of empathy. BUT you both have to care OR not care.

If you cannot mock them when they go smell their own piss and use some self-mockery so you go as well like it was tasting wine then well, I am afraid you are in a world you do not belong to.

There is another theory that say that a good couple is two people who love each other and a third thing they love to share together. It can be anything and it can change. But it must exist.

In my book, desire, expectations and sense of dignity are the main criteria.

 

[OldFashioned]

Good points all around. Not sure I see that stuff as gender equality per se. I'm not a super genius, but dating a woman who is a lot lower in the intelligence department doesn't excite me - I lose interest pretty quick.

Had a strange conversation with the girlfriend late last week. Her sister gave birth earlier in the week, and she's been taking a bunch of photos of her new nephew. Naturally, she texts me a breastfeeding photo that was cropped. I tell her I don't mind baby photos as long as they're G-rated. She says most of the baby photos she takes are G-rated, and the naked ones aren't as cute. I tell her it's probably a good idea to keep those other photos between her and close family, since people get funny around photos of naked children. She replies there won't be any since babies look way cuter in little outfits.

At the time I brushed it off as if she was just joking. Now that I think about it more, maybe that's what her family does, since they're quite open about the human body and all. Probably being paranoid, but what if we ever have kids and she takes photos of them naked. If those photos were found by the wrong person, I could be accused of some nasty stuff, and maybe go to prison. Is this some kind of thing, where people take photos of their naked babies?

Am I overthinking this? Things up till now have been pretty good.

 

[mrgoodstuff]

Good points all around. Not sure I see that stuff as gender equality per se. I'm not a super genius, but dating a woman who is a lot lower in the intelligence department doesn't excite me - I lose interest pretty quick.

Had a strange conversation with the girlfriend late last week. Her sister gave birth earlier in the week, and she's been taking a bunch of photos of her new nephew. Naturally, she texts me a breastfeeding photo that was cropped. I tell her I don't mind baby photos as long as they're G-rated. She says most of the baby photos she takes are G-rated, and the naked ones aren't as cute. I tell her it's probably a good idea to keep those other photos between her and close family, since people get funny around photos of naked children. She replies there won't be any since babies look way cuter in little outfits.

At the time I brushed it off as if she was just joking. Now that I think about it more, maybe that's what her family does, since they're quite open about the human body and all. Probably being paranoid, but what if we ever have kids and she takes photos of them naked. If those photos were found by the wrong person, I could be accused of some nasty stuff, and maybe go to prison. Is this some kind of thing, where people take photos of their naked babies?

Am I overthinking this? Things up till now have been pretty good.

I think if I happened to end up with one of those pics I'd delete it, because you never know.

 

[sodbuster]

The State is looking to screw men in Family Court. child porn charges, manufactured sexual abuse cases, etc. I'd never keep one around where someone could see it. Never know what feminists working in government will do....

 

[Dingo]

One thing to think about is that things change in a LTR.... Those values might evolve or might not be as important to you ten years down the line. You might lose your faith and she might find God.

 

[Scaramouche]

Dear Old Fashioned,
''When marrying, ask yourself this question: Do you believe that you will be able to converse well with this person into your old age? Everything else in marriage is transitory."'...That's what Epicurus thought two thousand years ago LOL