Best way to reduce belly fat?

[marmel75]

Your "explanation" is summed up by "hormones control weight loss" and "how often you eat controls hormone." That's it. You have no specifics and numbers justifying how. Am I wrong? Please, I'm all ears.

That is how you explain turning a 200 calorie deficit magically into ~3000. Just changing your eating schedule. Right.

Do you honestly expect anyone who is not legally retarded to believe this?

You aren't wrong. You are correct. I mean, who the hell wants to listen to a person who actually has done what he is advocating numerous times, gets results in the gym that few people will ever obtain in their lifetime in terms of both muscularity and strength, and puts in the work to back it up.

The reason you get mediocre results is because you accept them and aren't willing to push yourself hard enough for that to change. It has absolutely ZERO to do with my taking anything, because I already had 90% of my size and strength before any of that. So that's just a convenient excuse people like using because it makes them feel better about their unwillingness to work hard enough, to feel the type of pain that makes you barely able to move for two days, to feel like you've been in a car wreck for 6 days a week for months on end.

So what I would expect anyone who is not legally retarded to do is to look at where the information is coming from. A person who not only looks strong but actually IS strong(these muscles aren't for show, they put in work) and who has done exactly what I am talking about numerous times, and has excellent results, or the person who looks like a random dude on the street that gets mediocre results, doesn't even look like he works out, and wants to sit here and argue about things that he has never even attempted himself?

Bro, no offense, but if you put in as much time in the gym as you have on this thread, you might actually have some results you could be proud of. Just saying.

 

[marmel75]

Marmel, you are starting to totally lose all credibility with me buddy.

Because I tell the truth? Because I think for myself? Because I don't mindlessly believe what "I'm told to believe"? Research it yourself. I don't need your respect. I get enough of that from people who are far more qualified than most of the posters on this board. And its precisely because I always question things. I never simply accept what I'm told to believe just because I am told it. I research it exhaustively, then I formulate my opinion based on everything that I can find on it, both good and bad. So if you think running a six to eight week course of steroids twice a year and taking the proper precautions and doing it responsibly is the worst thing you can possibly do, then you can believe that. You will just be ignoring the majority of the evidence to the contrary then.

Again, 95% of the "horror stories" are people who abuse steroids and don't use them responsibly. It's the difference between someone having a glass of wine with dinner every night and the person drinking a whole bottle of wine every night. One uses it responsibly, one abuses it. The thing I find so funny is that a lot of people who use their prescription drugs exactly as they are told by their doctors are the ones dying from them, but nobody argues prescription drugs should be banned---sh!t, half of them don't even work, or work much worse than other methods that have NO side effects. Ever watch daytime TV? You can't go 5 minutes without seeing a commercial for a lawsuit against prescription drugs that led to death. But if you want to live in your little box and believe steroids are some huge danger when used responsibly then feel free. You do realize that steroids are actually used to treat various conditions and have a pretty great safety profile, right? Again, do your research. And when I say research, I don't mean look up people who use them like complete dumbasses and end up having issues---that's no surprise, its actually surprising they don't have them sooner in most cases, I mean RESEARCH them...like take 6 months and find and read every article you can on them. Then come back and we can have an intelligent discussion about them. Because right now, all you are giving me is heresay. And that isn't admissible in a court of law, and it's certainly not anything I'm paying attention to. Especially since I already know what you are going to find when you do the research.

Once again. If you were forced at gunpoint to take an entire bottle of one of the following:

Caffeine Pills
Aspirin
Vodka
Prescription Statins
D-Bol

Which one are you going to take if you plan to wake up in the morning?

For your sake I hope you say D-Bol.

 

[mrgoodstuff]

Your "explanation" is summed up by "hormones control weight loss" and "how often you eat controls hormone." That's it. You have no specifics and numbers justifying how. Am I wrong? Please, I'm all ears.

That is how you explain turning a 200 calorie deficit magically into ~3000. Just changing your eating schedule. Right.

Do you honestly expect anyone who is not legally retarded to believe this?

Not eating in the day gives a 2000-3000 calorie deficit right there, and a moderate workout on top to boost the metabolism will be another 400-800 calories. That's 1lb of fat in one day.

There is also proof as he said of the alternate day fasting which I haven't heard advertised does boost growth hormone which further increases fat burining.

You can fast one day, just drink water, you won't die and you might learn something. Many of our hunger is actually THIRST. Also many people eat to satiate being stressed. You won't know that until you take the food away.

 

[LiveYourDream]

I have no interest in fueling either side of the pro/con steroid debate that seems to have sprouted here. I see no reason to attack or that one needs to defend the choice. It is simply one's personal choice. It inflicts no harm upon another.

I never simply accept what I'm told to believe just because I am told it. I research it exhaustively, then I formulate my opinion based on everything that I can find on it, both good and bad.

I just want to acknowledge and thank you Marmel for the research you bring to this forum. I appreciate the references you frequently share. From what I have read, the sources are always reputable and high quality. You have opened my eyes to additional insights on IF, HIIT, hormones, diet and more. I appreciate that you are always looking for the latest scientific research to base your choices and sharing on. I appreciate the knowledge I have gained, as well as the time you have saved me, by your sharing some of latest research here. I just wanted to extend my appreciation and gratitude. Thank you.

 

[LiveYourDream]

double post error

 

[ChrisFloyd]

Because I tell the truth? Because I think for myself? Because I don't mindlessly believe what "I'm told to believe"? Research it yourself. I don't need your respect. I get enough of that from people who are far more qualified than most of the posters on this board. And its precisely because I always question things. I never simply accept what I'm told to believe just because I am told it. I research it exhaustively, then I formulate my opinion based on everything that I can find on it, both good and bad. So if you think running a six to eight week course of steroids twice a year and taking the proper precautions and doing it responsibly is the worst thing you can possibly do, then you can believe that. You will just be ignoring the majority of the evidence to the contrary then.

Again, 95% of the "horror stories" are people who abuse steroids and don't use them responsibly. It's the difference between someone having a glass of wine with dinner every night and the person drinking a whole bottle of wine every night. One uses it responsibly, one abuses it. The thing I find so funny is that a lot of people who use their prescription drugs exactly as they are told by their doctors are the ones dying from them, but nobody argues prescription drugs should be banned---sh!t, half of them don't even work, or work much worse than other methods that have NO side effects. Ever watch daytime TV? You can't go 5 minutes without seeing a commercial for a lawsuit against prescription drugs that led to death. But if you want to live in your little box and believe steroids are some huge danger when used responsibly then feel free. You do realize that steroids are actually used to treat various conditions and have a pretty great safety profile, right? Again, do your research. And when I say research, I don't mean look up people who use them like complete dumbasses and end up having issues---that's no surprise, its actually surprising they don't have them sooner in most cases, I mean RESEARCH them...like take 6 months and find and read every article you can on them. Then come back and we can have an intelligent discussion about them. Because right now, all you are giving me is heresay. And that isn't admissible in a court of law, and it's certainly not anything I'm paying attention to. Especially since I already know what you are going to find when you do the research.

Once again. If you were forced at gunpoint to take an entire bottle of one of the following:

Caffeine Pills
Aspirin
Vodka
Prescription Statins
D-Bol

Which one are you going to take if you plan to wake up in the morning?

For your sake I hope you say D-Bol.

Doctors' prescriptions are also based on academic research. The problem with them is that they treat everyone the same, while the reality is that each person is different and his body reacts to diets and drugs in its' way.

IMO, you can research as much as you want, but in the end, you are the only one who knows what's best for your body. But you have to pay attention and listen to it.

 

[LiveYourDream]

Doctors' prescriptions are also based on academic research.

Prescription med 'research' is often funded directly or indirectly, by the very corporate interests that will profit from them someday. It has been shown over and over that countless such studies are far from objective, unbiased, or unmanipulated.

For extra dollars companies can expedite through FDA processes and get their drugs to market faster, get the profits flowing into their pockets, all for "benefit of the consumer." Lots of money changing hands that has nothing to do with TRUE health.

Doctors have been known to receive 'perks' and gifts for prescribing certain meds more frequently than their competition.

Then there are the profit motivations of "health insurance" that again often have less to do with health than the financial returns for investors.

Modern medicine has LOTS and LOTS and LOTS, of profit, rather than health, driven engines behind it these days.

Thanks to billions of dollars of prescription med advertising, people have lost touch with what health really means and where it comes from.

A headache is not a symptom of sudden aspirin or Tylenol deficiency. People unknowingly and/or routinely treat their bodies this way now. People have become conditioned to pursue meds as a first response to health imbalance or dis-ease, before, if even, adjusting any contributing lifestyle issues.

You can have all the money in the world but if you don't have your health it means little. Ask a millionaire whose lots theirs what they would give to get it back. True health is priceless.

 

[Yewki]

You aren't wrong. You are correct. I mean, who the hell wants to listen to a person who actually has done what he is advocating numerous times.

I ask for specifics, you can't supply them. And no, you didn't do what you advocated either seeing as the numbers you gave for doing it are greatly embellished or just made up. What else are you fabricating? Why would anyone listen to a person who is making up results and has no real explanation for his "method"?

The reason you get mediocre results...

I've been successful on the bike and with my level of fitness. You're very adamant about turning a thread about fat loss into a body building competition aren't you?

 

[Yewki]

Not eating in the day gives a 2000-3000 calorie deficit right there, and a moderate workout on top to boost the metabolism will be another 400-800 calories. That's 1lb of fat in one day.

The problem is twofold. One, he claimed to have done this for 3 consecutive weeks. Two, no he was actually running only about a 200 calorie deficit. So where did the remaining 2000+ deficit come from, you ask? Hormones caused from... eating at certain times. Yes, by just changing when he eats he induced a collossal, unexplained calorie deficit. He's tried everything and it's better than exercise and calorie counting. It's the only thing that works. Trust him.

 

[mrgoodstuff]

The problem is twofold. One, he claimed to have done this for 3 consecutive weeks. Two, no he was actually running only about a 200 calorie deficit. So where did the remaining 2000+ deficit come from, you ask? Hormones caused from... eating at certain times. Yes, by just changing when he eats he induced a collossal, unexplained calorie deficit. He's tried everything and it's better than exercise and calorie counting. It's the only thing that works. Trust him.

It's not the only thing that works. But if your a fat a$$, and never fasted, going a day or two without food will not kill you and might teach you about your hunger and eating habits, plus if you can hold out for the 24 hour period, your going to drop some fat, guaranteed, because the body will switch over to burning body fat to sustain itself.

His program had a 3 day workout program ontop of it, so I'm imagining 3-5 hrs a week. Perfectly reasonable amount of excersize to stay healthy and good shape without being "too much".

 

[Yewki]

It's not the only thing that works. But if your a fat a$$, and never fasted, going a day or two without food will not kill you and might teach you about your hunger and eating habits, plus if you can hold out for the 24 hour period, your going to drop some fat, guaranteed, because the body will switch over to burning body fat to sustain itself. His program had a 3 day workout program ontop of it, so I'm imagining 3-5 hrs a week. Perfectly reasonable amount of excersize to stay healthy and good shape without being "too much".

I'm not clear on what your point is or what you're trying to say. Starving yourself is a very inefficient and unhealthy way to lose weight. Your body will go into starvation mode and lower its metabolic rate for survival purposes. It's also very unsustainable. The typical person who tries this will have a negative experience, give up, and binge eat right afterwards.

 

[marmel75]

Doctors' prescriptions are also based on academic research. The problem with them is that they treat everyone the same, while the reality is that each person is different and his body reacts to diets and drugs in its' way.

IMO, you can research as much as you want, but in the end, you are the only one who knows what's best for your body. But you have to pay attention and listen to it.

I agree with this. It's the reason I can't tolerate cycles because my body is "hyper active" and it freaks out even on mild cycles...

And I'm not saying all prescription medications are bad. In life threatening situations they are extremely useful. But as far as being on the majority of those things for the rest of a persons life? No...I'm sorry, there are plenty of other ways to achieve what the majority of prescriptions treat, but it requires people to be truthful with themselves and have more concern for their health than their doctor does.

 

[marmel75]

I'm not clear on what your point is or what you're trying to say. Starving yourself is a very inefficient and unhealthy way to lose weight. Your body will go into starvation mode and lower its metabolic rate for survival purposes. It's also very unsustainable. The typical person who tries this will have a negative experience, give up, and binge eat right afterwards.

Except that is where you are completely wrong. I've already explained what happens in the short term. For periods of 24-36 without food, the body releases big surges of growth hormone, peaking at 24 hours and then declining. Growth hormone is used for releasing fat and protecting muscle during this period. This is why the body is able to more efficiently both lose fat AND keep muscle with this method(one of them, really all of what is done together creates a perfect storm for fat loss) Growth hormone is elevated up to 600% after 24 hours. So if you are consistently elevating growth hormone 3 days a week to 6 times normal levels, and at higher levels of varying amounts even post fast(because your GH levels do not immediately go back to baseline levels after eating), AND then cranking it up even furthering by working out and then doing 5 minutes of HIIT post workout, which is another proven method to send GH levels soaring, how does it not then follow that you should expect rapid fat loss without the associated muscle loss? At the very least MUCH faster results than a normal person, whose GH levels are simply at baseline the entire time? The results are exactly what should be expected with significantly elevated growth hormone in the body, as well as maximizing their potential for fat loss by optimizing Leptin, Insulin and Adiponectin levels in the body.

The entire slowing metabolism and starvation mode does happen, but ironically are much MORE likely to occur with your method of continuing to eat lower calories. This happens after extended periods of time in a calorie deficit, NOT during short term periods without food, EVEN when these short term fasts are utilized repeatedly because you are causing the body to go on a roller coaster, so it can't get used to one thing, and you aren't in a calorie deficit for very long at any one time.

This is the whole point I'm trying to explain, you are arguing about something you have no knowledge of without even bothering to look at any research on it, or having any experience with doing it and using flawed reasoning on top of it. The reasoning isn't simply flawed, it's completely false. I mean, all you had to do is actually READ one of the first 3 articles/studies I posted and you would have found this out.

And the typical person will not binge eat afterwards. After a certain point, you become less hungry rather than more hungry...there are many times I actually might go an extra hour or two because I forget to eat because I'm not hungry and when I do eat it's almost like I'm forcing myself to.

This is the last post I'm writing on this subject. You obviously don't want to do the necessary research to have an intelligent conversation on the subject, which isn't surprising based on your lazy results you achieve at the gym.

I'm dropping the mic and walking away now.

 

[mrgoodstuff]

I'm not clear on what your point is or what you're trying to say. Starving yourself is a very inefficient and unhealthy way to lose weight. Your body will go into starvation mode and lower its metabolic rate for survival purposes. It's also very unsustainable. The typical person who tries this will have a negative experience, give up, and binge eat right afterwards.

Marmel gave a more scientific explanation. However one day of not eating is not enough to go into starvation mode. This is why the alternating days keeps the fat burning at a very high level. Two weeks of 900 calories you probably will be in starvation mode.

This is a model you can try before you buy. Try it out for a month. If you have muscle on you, it's not like you'll lose it all or most of it, and you might be surprised. Fasting in limited quantities does help, it's good for your system and mental clarity, plus you don't really lose muscle and some fat will be lost in the process.

 

[Yewki]

Growth hormone is elevated up to 600% after 24 hours... you are arguing about something you have no knowledge of without even bothering to look at any research on it.

You do realize you can raise your growth hormone level through many methods, right? Here's a review of studies showing that growth hormones can be spiked to the levels that you speak of by taking amino acids. Arginine pyroglutamate combined with L-lysine hydrochloride for example elevated growth hormone by 200%-800% in a study of 15 male subjects.

Is the secret to weight loss taking amino acids now? Seems a lot easier than starving yourself.

 

[Tenacity]

This thread has gone to something totally different lol.

With ALL of the things we have to worry about in this world, exercising/eating right needs to be able to FIT into our daily lives in as least a complicated way as possible. Marmel provides a lot of information, some I agree with and some I don't, but for the life of me you guys are turning this into Rocket Science.

It's why people don't get on a program and stay on it, which is how you TRULY reach your fitness goals. It's because they are bombarded with new article, new scientific technique, new this, new that, new this, new that....to where being FIT seems more complicated than it is.

I know this to be true because I was a victim of it. The ONLY REASON I reached my fitness goals was because I turned the internet off, closed the damn fitness magazines, and just ate more healthy....incorporated fasting in between it...and worked out regularly with great intensity.

Damn it guys, that's all you need to be pushing to people. Keep the shyt simple for goodness sakes.

 

[marmel75]

You do realize you can raise your growth hormone level through many methods, right? Here's a review of studies showing that growth hormones can be spiked to the levels that you speak of by taking amino acids. Arginine pyroglutamate combined with L-lysine hydrochloride for example elevated growth hormone by 200%-800% in a study of 15 male subjects.

Is the secret to weight loss taking amino acids now? Seems a lot easier than starving yourself.

Once again you do half ass research and don't understand context.

http://nutrientjournal.com/l-lysine-l-arginine-may-promote-growth-hormone-release/

First off, the studies with amino acids show a benefit for sedentary people, ie couch sitters, not people who are exercising regularly. In fact it shows that those people see no further benefit from this other than what they get from exercise.

Second, GH levels are decreased when insulin levels rise via a hormone called Somatostatin. What you want are elevated GH levels for lengthy periods not a small spike and then a rapid decline. So even if amino acids were able to increase GH in well trained individuals, as soon as you ate something that causes insulin to rise, the benefits are over within a short period of time.

Third, fasting is not "starving yourself". In fact, fasting has a wide range of health benefits outside of fat loss including lowering the inflammatory load on your body, greatly increasing insulin sensitivity of cells, and improving immune system and gut bacteria health(these 2 things are linked together).

Once again, if you are not going to the time to research things properly AND understand the context of it don't bring it up. A little knowledge can be a dangerous thing.

 

[mrgoodstuff]

This thread has gone to something totally different lol.

With ALL of the things we have to worry about in this world, exercising/eating right needs to be able to FIT into our daily lives in as least a complicated way as possible. Marmel provides a lot of information, some I agree with and some I don't, but for the life of me you guys are turning this into Rocket Science.

It's why people don't get on a program and stay on it, which is how you TRULY reach your fitness goals. It's because they are bombarded with new article, new scientific technique, new this, new that, new this, new that....to where being FIT seems more complicated than it is.

I know this to be true because I was a victim of it. The ONLY REASON I reached my fitness goals was because I turned the internet off, closed the damn fitness magazines, and just ate more healthy....incorporated fasting in between it...and worked out regularly with great intensity.

Damn it guys, that's all you need to be pushing to people. Keep the shyt simple for goodness sakes.

Marmel was providing the technical details of why it works. Occasional fasting won't kill you, is good for properly adjusting your hunger, reduces inflammation and a guaranteed fat loss day.

The best way is not to get over weight or fat in the first place.

 

[marmel75]

This thread has gone to something totally different lol.

With ALL of the things we have to worry about in this world, exercising/eating right needs to be able to FIT into our daily lives in as least a complicated way as possible. Marmel provides a lot of information, some I agree with and some I don't, but for the life of me you guys are turning this into Rocket Science.

It's why people don't get on a program and stay on it, which is how you TRULY reach your fitness goals. It's because they are bombarded with new article, new scientific technique, new this, new that, new this, new that....to where being FIT seems more complicated than it is.

I know this to be true because I was a victim of it. The ONLY REASON I reached my fitness goals was because I turned the internet off, closed the damn fitness magazines, and just ate more healthy....incorporated fasting in between it...and worked out regularly with great intensity.

Damn it guys, that's all you need to be pushing to people. Keep the shyt simple for goodness sakes.

Why wouldn't you want to use science to your advantage if you can? You use electricity, drive cars and use computers, tablets and smartphones right? Why not just keep it simple in those aspects of your life also? You could live like the Amish do. They think all science stopped in the early 1800's too.

If I gave you a 100 long gutter screws to screw into a big block of wood and laid down a screwdriver and a drill, you would choose the screwdriver? Of course not.

That's all I'm saying. If you have a tool that can be used to your advantage and get you the same or better results in a shorter period of time, why wouldn't you use it? Is what I'm saying any more complex than people who follow workout routines designed to maximize their results in the same way?

I don't think I am, it's just most people are all too willing to accept science backed information in the gym, but not accept science backed information outside of the gym. You spend far more time outside of the gym than you do inside it, it only makes sense to optimize that part of your life.

 

[Tenacity]

Yeah but I'm not taking steroids Marmel lol. I could see if I was getting "paid" to look a certain way such as being a bodybuilder, but just to be taking them to show off bigger biceps on the beach isn't worth it to me.

I guess understanding more about the "science" behind it can be important, but what I'm talking about is that the Fitness Community spends way too much time trying to throw all of these scientific studies on a newbie's lap and all you are doing is confusing the literal fvck out of them.

What that does is cause them to see this as something that's too hard, too complicated, and they usually do not stay committed to the program lined out in terms of eating right and exercising.

Plus, most of the time, the scientific studies do nothing but create massive debate with 33% believing the study, 33% saying it's total bullshyt, then the other 34% being somewhere in the middle. These massive debates FURTHER confuse the newbie because they have no idea which plan, program, etc. to follow.

And Marmel in my opinion, you add to this confusion and you do more harm than good, I'm sorry. Just like the simple plan I laid out about eating right and staying on a HITT cardio with a weight lifting program...which is very simple and easy for the person to commit to, HERE YOU COME with your 50 page scientific theory on why it won't work. This causes Yewki to debate back with you on why it DOES work, then we just get a massive debate and mess going.

All the while, the newbie is standing there wondering, "WTF do I do? Who is wrong? Who is right? Urghhhh this is too hard, I'm going to eat a Big Mac!"