Are women naturally more manipulative than men?

[GtarPlayr73]

This is related to my other thread on the sexually manipulative woman. I was thinking about what women think when they consider the incredible power that they have via their bodies. What do they think when they look at themselves in the mirror at those natural luscious natural tits or those wonderful curvy hips? What do they think when they consider how men respond to their bodies with such instinctive and single-minded furvor? What do they think after they realize this body of mine is amazing and men love it??? Then i thought of them contemplating and actually choosing to use their bodies to get men to do favors for them - in other words, manipulation. And then i thought, god, how pathetic. How conniving. How repulsively disingenuous. How...how...weak. And now it strikes me: weakness requires manipulation. Yes women, being the weaker sex, have learned to get what they want by manipulating the stronger sex - us men. And i realize that men are nowhere near as manipulative...UNLESS, and here is the incredible rub, unless they are weak...and then, guess what? Those weak men are just as manipulative and passive-aggressive as women are. But in general, women are much more manipulative and two-faced then men are. Hell, the only way men can get women to "loosen-up" for what we want (sex) is to serve them alcohol! Otherwise, we're pretty well straight-up (right, str8up?).

But let's discuss the mentality of the HB who knows she has incredible powers and willfully chooses to use those sexual powers to get non-sexual things. Call it evolution, but i think it f*cking well sucks. But then, what is maturity but the transcendence of evolution and the rare HB who plays it straight with men is to be admired.

 

[insidious]

...
But let's discuss the mentality of the HB who knows she has incredible powers and willfully chooses to use those sexual powers to get non-sexual things. Call it evolution, but i think it f*cking well sucks. But then, what is maturity but the transcendence of evolution and the rare HB who plays it straight with men is to be admired.

I definitely won't call that evolution. In the evolutionary context, women's supposed sexual powers are useless in the absence of society and its structured laws.

"Civilized" society works to the woman's benefit in that it gives her leverage she never would have had 15,000 years ago. If we played by the same "rules" prehistoric man lived by, there would be no female manipulation because we would just take, by force, what was "rightfully" ours and never question the morality or propriety of it.

 

[decades]

They don't have "incredible power with their bodies".
They have bodies (just like you do).

you've been recently "hurt" by a woman and you are licking your wounds. But when you learn your lessons from this (time will help), you will discover that you have the power because you have a discerning mind. you make the choices. the only power they have with their bodies is the power you grant them.

 

[joekerr31]

gtar, i agree with your post.

heck, ive said this a million times already. the weaker of two organisms will always seek to control the stronger organism by any means necessary. the stronger organism doesn't seek to control the weaker one, because it feels as though its already in control, after all its stronger right.

as for women and manipulation...

what most men don't realize though is that its a con. and women know its a con. women know there is nothing special about them OTHER than this crazy phenomena of men willing to do anything to screw them.

heck if i were a woman i wouldn't understand what the great appeal was about two sacs of fat on my chesst and a sloppy wet hot that bleeds once a month and if not taken care of religiously smells like a dead fish.

women don't think they are the bomb because its a self evident fact. they believe it because they have drooling men jumping through hoops to get laid.

this is why a womans biggest fear (and i wish i thought of this when i did a thread on exactly this topic) is that a man will one day wake up and realize 'what the f*ck was i thinking? there ain't nothing special about this broad."

oh oh, the jig is up!

trust me, all power that women have is derived from validation from the male world. whether that be in the work place, dating scene or the bedroom.

women are extremely manipulative, they do use their bodies to manipulate you, and yet the ONLY power they ever have is YOUR desire for them.

this is also why its VERY rare that a woman will bluntly ask a man out. instead she will basically spread her legs and show him her p*ssy, but she won't actually ASK. because she NEEDS to know that he wants her. if she asks, then even if he says yes, its not a clear cut sign he wants her - just that he's up for going out sometime. but if he asks her, well, its clear, he has at least SOME interest in her (which then comforts her that her traditional bag of tricks will likely be effective in relating to this new man).

anyway, the thing i keep impressing on guys is that women are nowhere near as powerful or self confident as you think. and what 'balls' they do have is a function of their status and position in the male world.

so a woman with lots of male attention will be pretty ballsy and get right in a mans face. she's manipulated so many men that she no longer fears men and figures she can push them all around whenever she wants.

but even those women, even the hb10s, when they come face to face with a man who doesn't take sh*t from anyone, they either back right down or they lose total control and explode in hysterics.

so to all men STOP handing your power over to women. they can't manipulate you if you dont let them.

 

[joekerr31]

oh and yes, this is a natural phenomena.

ALL women are like this.

the high quality women however at least have developed other dimensions to themselves. so they dont just bring sexual manipulation to the table, but bring humor, character, honesty, appreciation, etc.

 

[edger]

I definitely won't call that evolution. In the evolutionary context, women's supposed sexual powers are useless in the absence of society and its structured laws.

"Civilized" society works to the woman's benefit in that it gives her leverage she never would have had 15,000 years ago. If we played by the same "rules" prehistoric man lived by, there would be no female manipulation because we would just take, by force, what was "rightfully" ours and never question the morality or propriety of it.

So true.

 

[Rollo Tomassi]

Are women naturally more manipulative than men?

No.

Women are conditioned to be opportunists to be sure, but no more so than men and with different motives and methods. What frustrates men into thinking that women are deliberatively manipulative is the way in which they communicate this opportunism. Some are more and some are less manipulative, but what separates their opportunism from our own is the way they communicate it.

Women are far more adept at interpersonal communications than men realize they are. Numerous studies have been done in regards to women’s grasp of language and communications skills and evidence suggests that this is even an inborn, biological capacity. Men have rational skills that match these, but women can accurately infer communication from looks, (i.e. the 'dirty look') and speech that men in the same instance are unaware of. It's also important to understand that this skill is a passive one; meaning she does so without any real effort or recognition she's making communicative connection because of it at all times. That's not to say this ability goes unrecognized by women, quite the opposite actually. How often do men hear the 'feminine intuition' boast or about how men "just don't get it"? Most women take this as a point of pride and is most often confused with deliberate manipulation (whether it is or not). However, men can use this to their advantage if they're patient and have an understanding of how this works.

Women have a natural preference to communicate covertly (dirty looks, inferences, innuendo, subtle language manipulations and physical presentations), but that's not to say that this doesn't break down into an overt communications (direct telling of intent, crying, vocal outbursts, etc.) when it serves them better (or their covert message isn't being received well enough).

For instance, when I advocate communicating to a woman that you aren't exclusive with her you must do so covertly. Overtly saying to a woman, "hey, we're not exclusive" or "other women find me irresistable" comes off with the obvious egotistical overtones and would most likely be met with an outright rejection (depending of course upon her self esteem). Women understandably abhor overt communication in this manner. But, if you can master a woman's covert form of communication and 'imply' with your behavior or 'infer' confidence from your speech that you are in demand and are someone for whom she should 'feel' she ought to be competing for, then you can set the balance for your relationship with her. If you have no desire to become involved with her in the long term this works in that it keeps her returning to a source of attention that she highly values because you 'speak her language' to your advantage. If you decide she is worth your long term effort, you maintain the advantage of her perception of you being 'the good catch' by keeping her in a, conscious or unconscious, state of competition with other potential women. This is the primary reason C&F and Neg Hits work like magic - they are intentionally ambiguous, covert forms of communication that a woman intrinsically understands. Men who'd never attempt to be C&F or dream of risking a Neg Hit (or a back handed compliment) who muster the courage to do so often express the shock and surprise at how well the techniques work. The reason? He's spoken her covert language for the first time in his life.

Think of dealing with a woman you perceive as being manipulative as a sort of psychological Jiu Jitsu. Use your opponent's energy against her.

 

[joekerr31]

rollo, i always respect your posts, but im goign to banter a bit on this one.

with regards to communication, i agree with you, each gender has their own forms. men often puff out and pound their chest like a gorilla (figuratively speaking) as a means of asserting dominance. that is a form of manipulation just as assuredly as woman's ability to be seductive and flirtatious.

so all's even on that front.

but when it comes to cold and calculating manipulation - ie. using your opponents weakness against them, women are MUCH more apt to be manipulative than men.

for women, its sex. women will use sex to get what they want. women will also use a mans low self esteem to get what they want. they will do this, with their real intentions completely disguised. they are doing this with an outcome in mind but will keep that to themselves. and they will do this with total disregard to any damage they are causing the male. they will manipulate until they reach the point where they simply conclude that no amount of manipulation is going to make this guy 'the one' for them - at which point they will toss him aside without a moments thought.

whereas with men. if a woman is having a hard time in life, a lot of men will NOT use that to manipulate her. yes, some will. but many men will be genuine in their assistance. they won't leverage the womans weakness just to get laid and then toss her aside with no regards for her feelings. perhaps folks will disagree with me on this.

anyway, i personally think women are MUCH more apt to be manipulative with total disregard for the person they are dealing with. in essence, they want what they want and they are going to use any tactic to get it.

heck women are more manipulative of other women than men are! women will gossip and lie about each other to assert dominance over the ranking of their social circle. men simply do not engage in this behavior to the extent that women do.

i think men are much more up front and straight forward in going after what they want.

its merely the natural order of things. the weaker of two organisms is always going to learn to be more cunning and manipulative to protect its survival against a stronger organism.

 

[Latinoman]

Now...this is a great thread.

 

[jophil28]

I have to say this to Joekerr - your posts are so 'downhome making good sense' -There is ALWAYS some comment or conclusion that you write that I can "take to the bank "

 

[Jestor]

Unlike men, women tend to "ask" or "hint" rather than just tell you. Problem is when they ask, ask, ask, hint, hint, hint (nagging) - then it becomes a problem.

 

[Latinoman]

I agree with joekerr's explanation.

 

[STR8UP]

Women don't generally have malicious intent.

They are simply reacting to a perception of an off balance in supply and demand. Women are such emotional creatures that they can't differentiate between QUALITY attention they get from men, and the QUANTITY of attention they get from every slobbering Tom, ****, and Harry that crosses their path.

Women aren't evil. They are just reacting to the attention they get.

 

[##17]

My take:

(1) A woman's biological obligation is to herself and to her children, NOT to the man or men in her life. (Those aren't my opinions, they're biology's drive. Ignore this at your peril.) To that end, it is in A LOT fo women to use her suitors' tendencies for resources even if she has no desire to for any of them (e.g., she'll take free dinners and gifts from the `nice guys' in her life, telling herself that she is only 'doing these guys a favor' by 'giving them a chance', while she craves and sleeps with the 'bad boy' whom she can't ever see herself leaving). Also, she cares about the feelings of a man only as long as she is attracted to him and desires him to stick around. When she loses attraction for him, she stops caring about him.

To a lot of us guys who prize loyalty, that seems cold. But that's reality, and I'm not trying to be cynical either. Knowing the above can make it a lot easier dealing with the end of a relationship.


(2) Women are a lot more socially savvy than men in that they seem understand a lot better than men how having strong personal boundaries makes someone more attractive. Think about it and consider this: women love sex just as much as we do. But they have been trained to say no. Men seem to be chaing women a lot more than they seem to be chasing us. Connection between these two things?

 

[bigjohnson]

Women are way better at being subtle than men are by and large. Humans all like to get our way to some extent but women are on average more adept "out of the box" at getting their way via subterfuge.

That's my experience anyway.

 

[Rollo Tomassi]

Women don't generally have malicious intent. Women aren't evil. They are just reacting to the attention they get.

This was pretty much going to be my follow up response to JOKERR. When you consider the dynamic of manipulation you've got to look at the underlying intent behind it. Both men and women manipulate each other; some grossly and blatantly so, and the rest subtley and/or unconsciously so. The difference is in our methodolgies of manipulating each other. We grind our teeth at what we perceive is manipulative behavior in women and get upon or soap boxes claiming a moral high-ground because these "evil women just wont shoot straight with us." Women's pseudo-flirtatious behaviors frustrate us because ideally we'd like to think that a woman would (should) be forthright in displaying signs of sexual interest with us - but, this is the rational, deductive thinking of men that women are all too ready to exploit. It frustrates us on a physical, emotional and rational level, because it's ambiguous enough for her to claim innocence, (the feminine prerogative) but specific enough for a man to misinterpret intent because it plays on that physical and emotional desire.

All of this presumes a woman is to a greater degree conscious of being manipulative and has an intended goal to achieve in being so. What most guys would complain of as being manipulative behavior is more often than not prompted by an attention seeking need. It would be easy for us to say "well that's really 'shallow'" or to write a woman off as "low quality" or an AW, but the fact of the matter is that women use attention as a self-affirmation as well as social proof. It's nature and nurture - attention serves a biological need AND is a socialized dynamic. In the land of women, attention is the coin of the realm.

Women are going to do what women will do, but the final point on all of this (and the one I was initially trying to make) is that in order for a situation to be manipulative you need 2 participants. You are only as manipulated as you are willing to allow yourself to be, and the best way to counter this is to understand how women communicate and what their latent motives are. Again, it's easy to cry foul and want to change the game - it's something else to learn to play the game well. Don't wish it were easier, wish you were better. You know a woman will manipulate you to some degree (sh!t tests are a good example), but if you are prepared for them, understand what motivates them and know how to confidently respond to them in such a way that her attempts to manipulate are turned to your advantage, you'll find yourself far less frustrated in the long run.

 

[joekerr31]

All of this presumes a woman is to a greater degree conscious of being manipulative and has an intended goal to achieve in being so. What most guys would complain of as being manipulative behavior is more often than not prompted by an attention seeking need. .

agreed, but that doesnt make it less manipulative.

women are constantly setting boobie traps (no pun intended) as ways of getting attention from their man, or to manuever him into a certain position or way of thinking.

it may be understandable, but its still manipulation. it may be beneficial, but its still manipulation. it may be subconscious, but its still manipulation. it may be in the quest for attention, but its still manipulation

and when you add up such behaviors, i believe, that you see a lot more of it from women than you do from men.

im not even saying its wrong. what i am saying is that women grow up in a world build on manipulation and hence are experts in its use.

i mean, even at teh most basic fundemental level they manipulate their looks much more than men do. from clothing to make up - they are masters at creating 'more than meets the eye'.

some women use manipulation positively, others are simply careless and ignorant in its use, and others use it callouslly.

but in my mind a woman wields manipulation the way a samurai wields a sword. whereas (most) men have no idea how to use a sword, they are more like vikings with big sledge hammers. hehe.

anyway, when it comes to the role of manipulation in the genders, i still argue that women are much more manipulative than men.

moreover, i would argue, that anyone, man or woman, who lacks the ability to confront issues head on has no choice but to be manipulative. that's actually the root cause of manipulative behavior - the inability / fear to address something openly or head on.

rollo, you've said many times that women communicate covertly. need i say more? their very form of communication is based on manipulation - they say one thing but mean another. and the reason they communicate covertly is because they've been conditioned to get what they want not by being direct, but rather by tactfully moving their opponent through various hoops using emotional prods.

but who knows, maybe we just have a difference in our view of manipulation. take bible belts recent scenario of his gf not answering his calls. in my opinion that's manipulation. she's manipulating him in to a spot where she can dump his *ss and feel guilt free over doing so. instead of just telling him 'its over' she's more than happy to let him dangle there endlessly until she either gets another guy or decides the spider has had enough fun with the fly.

 

[##17]

agreed, but that doesnt make it less manipulative.

women are constantly setting boobie traps (no pun intended) as ways of getting attention from their man, or to manuever him into a certain position or way of thinking.

it may be understandable, but its still manipulation. it may be beneficial, but its still manipulation. it may be subconscious, but its still manipulation. it may be in the quest for attention, but its still manipulation

and when you add up such behaviors, i believe, that you see a lot more of it from women than you do from men.

im not even saying its wrong. what i am saying is that women grow up in a world build on manipulation and hence are experts in its use.

i mean, even at teh most basic fundemental level they manipulate their looks much more than men do. from clothing to make up - they are masters at creating 'more than meets the eye'.

some women use manipulation positively, others are simply careless and ignorant in its use, and others use it callouslly.

but in my mind a woman wields manipulation the way a samurai wields a sword. whereas (most) men have no idea how to use a sword, they are more like vikings with big sledge hammers. hehe.

anyway, when it comes to the role of manipulation in the genders, i still argue that women are much more manipulative than men.

moreover, i would argue, that anyone, man or woman, who lacks the ability to confront issues head on has no choice but to be manipulative. that's actually the root cause of manipulative behavior - the inability / fear to address something openly or head on.

rollo, you've said many times that women communicate covertly. need i say more? their very form of communication is based on manipulation - they say one thing but mean another. and the reason they communicate covertly is because they've been conditioned to get what they want not by being direct, but rather by tactfully moving their opponent through various hoops using emotional prods.

but who knows, maybe we just have a difference in our view of manipulation. take bible belts recent scenario of his gf not answering his calls. in my opinion that's manipulation. she's manipulating him in to a spot where she can dump his *ss and feel guilt free over doing so. instead of just telling him 'its over' she's more than happy to let him dangle there endlessly until she either gets another guy or decides the spider has had enough fun with the fly.

I agree 100% with this. I also think that accepting that women play games is part of evolving into a mature man. The AFC thinks that most women are pure and open and straight-on. A recovering AFC (or a guy who has gotten burned too many times) on the other hand, sees the games that women play and hates them for that. A mature man accepts that certain things are just part of female nature, accepts it, and works with it.

 

[Mr.Positive]

I agree 100% with this. I also think that accepting that women play games is part of evolving into a mature man. The AFC thinks that most women are pure and open and straight-on. A recovering AFC (or a guy who has gotten burned too many times) on the other hand, sees the games that women play and hates them for that. A mature man accepts that certain things are just part of female nature, accepts it, and works with it.

This is a GREAT point. I find a lot of women are non-stop entertainment because of this actually.

I'm starting to see that women are constantly using small forms of manipulation, whether consciously or subconsiouly. I think Wyldfire had a post about this, although in her terms, it was how woman try to lead a relationship for the better, by making it seem that their man is leading. It's all really manipulation.

A close female friend confided to me that she does this...an example, when deciding where to eat, she will hint at several resturaunts that she enjoys...but lets the man decide. That way, she gets to eat where she wants to, and he feels manly by making the decision.

I love it actually. I see when women are doing this, and it just cracks me up. To me it's very feminine and cute....as long as the manipulation isn't devious.

Furthermore, I like to go along with some subtle manipulation from women sometimes, and then trump other forms. It keeps women on their toes. It creates an up and down sort of feeling with them, that they can't figure it out. It can drive them crazy, in a good way!!

Women are just being women, it's up to us to see this manipulation and decide what to do. It's all about recognizing the motive, if it's a good one or bad. Just have fun with it..

 

[Sinistar]

rollo, you've said many times that women communicate covertly. need i say more? their very form of communication is based on manipulation - they say one thing but mean another. and the reason they communicate covertly is because they've been conditioned to get what they want not by being direct, but rather by tactfully moving their opponent through various hoops using emotional prods.

...I somewhat disagree with the above statements. Yes, women are indirect and conditioned to be so. However, the underlying motivator is not manipulation - it is their primary fear - insecurity. Women have learned (actually I think it is instinct) that it is safer (for them) to be indirect, to infer and to imply rather than to directly state facts and truths.

If a woman didn't want a guy around anymore and she had no fear of him whatesover (ie physically) she would just tell him to f off as soon as she had moved on. She would not manipulate or imply or infer, she would just be matter of fact about it.

People with learn to use manipulation in order to gain power and things they can not otherwise take directly.