Jealousy

Rollo Tomassi

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Appologies all for my recent absence here. Life has gotten in the way and I do have to apply myself at work. I've also had the interesting experience this week of helping sort out a situation for a girl who works for me and has become (in a round about way) a personal counseling project. KARMA SUTRA and STR8UP are familiar with this girl's story to a degree (yes, it the one I spoke of at dinner), but a lot has developed and I didn't have her permission to relate much of anything here (I always practice confidence) until recently. Which brings me to the topic of my thrread here; but before I elaborate on her story let me relate a principle I've been exploring recently.

Back in 2003 I lived in Reno, Nevada. And I can remember one distinct morning I was driving from the gym into work and I was waiting at a stop light. It was around 8am and as I slowed and stopped at the intersection, along drives my wife in her car coming from the cross traffic. I knew it was her, I saw her in the driver's seat and I knew the car (because I had bought it). Now, I have to ashamedly admit that the first thing that crossed my mind was that she was running around on me. Instant jealousy, instant suspicion. I felt that all too familiar rush of chemicals flood my bloodstream as I wondered just what the hell she was doing at that time of the morning in that particular part of the town. I later realized that she had chosen that particular route to avoid an accident that was snarling traffic on the freeway, but I can't deny that my first impulse (however fleeting) was one of jealousy, suspicion or potential betrayal. My wife of (then) 7 years, who'd never in that time ever gave me pause to question her committment triggered, for about 10 minutes, a jealousy-suspicion - and the effects of which we're quantifiable in that adrenaline-endorphin rush leading to irrational imaginations.

As most of you know I have a stellar marriage (10 years in July thank you) and I'd like to pride myself on pragmatism and rationality, but I wont deny that my first thought was suspicion. I think this is a fascinating aspect of our psycho-evolutionary development as a species so I did a bit of research on this for the book I'm presently writing. It was easy to find study after study of this jealousy effect not only in humans, but primates and most advanced mammals - hell, even some birds get jealous! All of this is triggered by certain environmental prompts according to situation. A very complex ****tail of hormones is released into our bloodstreams when such conditions are met, leading exactly to the feelings and irrationality I experienced that morning. Jealousy is a very well studied dynamic and one that has latent survialism functions. Obviously one of our biological imperatives in this life time is ensuring the fidelity in the choice of our partners with whom we've decided to share parental investment (or potentially will share it with). So imperative is this that our own biologies have evolved to react to even the suspicion of infidelity. This is the root of these very volatile emotions.

All this brings me to a particular AFC that I've recently had the displeasure of dealing with (albeit at arms distance). Roy, 23, like all proper AFCs bought into the pollyanna idea that moving in with his girlfriend, Joanne, would be great, they'd get married and live happily ever after. One problem is that Joanne was just getting over a 2 year relationship with her Jerk, up and coming rockstar, boyfriend and was not yet "over him." She had to move out though, and Roy in all of his AFC zeal played 'savior' and they got a one bed appartment in another state. Roy has classic ONEitis (as I define it) and also suffers from a 'savior' schema (i.e. "I'll fix her problems and she'll reciprocate intimacy in gratitude"). He'd already played Surrogate Boyfriend in the Friend Zone with Joanne for over 5 years prior to their living arrangement. In the 8 months since they began cohabitating, there has been nothing but unresolved strife in the relationship. Roy, like most AFCs is also an identifier - the more he can make himself what he believed she was looking for in a guy the less genuine identity he possessed. Joanne responded to this by pining for the ex-Jerk boyfriend and the opposite qualities that he exhibited, he became the challenge and the object to chase. All of this culminated in her taking to trips back to see the Ex in an attempt to restart a better relationship with him.

Now all of this happens with Roy's implicit knowledge. He KNOWS her feelings, he sees her behaviors, she doesn't try to hide anything from him and it's all above board. There is no subterfuge and she unequivocably has made her intent clear - she plans to move back to the state where the Jerk is. Yet inspite of all of this, Roy still seeks confirmation of his jealousy and affirmation of his own self-image. In my estimation he has become 'addicted' to the chemical rush induced by the jealousy prompt. He constantly badgers Joanne with batteries of questions to which he already KNOWS the answers too, but still they come. She is incredibly stressed in this and it's taking a physical toll on her, meanwhile Roy tries to ascertain facts and feelings he's already confirmed for himself and soaking up the jealousy rush rather than moving on and doing what I think most of us can see ought to be the more ratioonal course of action.

Obviously I can't go into absolute detail here of all the instances I know about the relationship, but what I'm focusing on is this mental attachment to this jealousy and the physical attributes that perpetuate the cycle. As humans, we LOVE this sh!t. Even the minor amounts of stimulation that our popular culture can feed us through titalating media - Jerry Springer type shows, desperate housewives, soaps, romance novels - is evidence of a physical craving.

For a while we had a rash of threads dedicated to "I think my girl is cheating on me", "I'm in an LDR and I don't trust her" or "How should I act around/how do I get back at my Ex." All of these are rooted in the latent function of our biological response to jealousy (or it's potential, suspicion) and I think understanding how this works in us is the key to resolving these situations.
 

Desdinova

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Yet inspite of all of this, Roy still seeks confirmation of his jealousy and affirmation of his own self-image. In my estimation he has become 'addicted' to the chemical rush induced by the jealousy prompt.
Although I can see this happening with women (eg. she's chasing after the jerk), I really can't see it with men. I've been in the guy's shoes and this is what was happening:

Guy asks girl a question such as "Don't you love me?"
Girl answers with "I love you as a friend"
Guy refuses to accept the answer he doesn't want to hear and asks her again at another time.

It's all denial. The guy wants to hear the answer he's looking for. He will continue to pursue that answer until he hears it or gets a obvious rejection (restraining order). Even if she tells him "I hate you", he'll pursue her and tell her that he can change. Again, he's looking for the answer he wants, and he's willing to work for it.

He'd rather live in denial than accept the truth.
 

Rollo Tomassi

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DES: In that instance you're correct. However, he also consistently snoops and pries into her personal space and 'checks up' on her with the preknowledge that he's no longer an intimate of hers. In addition, he'll make accusation of her or attempt to baselessly scold her with the intent of learning what she's doing. In this (and in the interrogation) I think it's the physical rush and the emotions that follow from it that perpetuate the cycle.
 

Latinoman

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I believe jealousy is a clear sign of insecurity. I don't feel jealousy. I am currently incapable of feeling jealousy. Here is why: Because I don't view any man to be above me. Some, I might view as my equals. But none to be above me. If my partner decides to see another man, then, in my eyes that reflects bad on her. Not on me. I'm confident enough as to see what qualities.

Now, am I capable of feeling "anger" or an acute sense of awareness? Of course! I (and some men) live under a code of respect. The adrenalyne that some of us feel when we believe we are going to caught somebody doing something to disrespect or take advantage of us is similar to what you describe as jealousy. What you felt was that awareness. It was not jealousy.
 

Latinoman

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No offense, but concerning Joanne...let's not kid ourselves here. Her behavior is one of a slut and disrespect for her man and herself. She is playing games and at the same time looking for sympathy.
 

Men frequently err by talking too much. They often monopolize conversations, droning on and on about topics that bore women to tears. They think they're impressing the women when, in reality, they're depressing the women.

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Latinoman

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Latinoman said:
I believe jealousy is a clear sign of insecurity. I don't feel jealousy. I am currently incapable of feeling jealousy. Here is why: Because I don't view any man to be above me. Some, I might view as my equals. But none to be above me. If my partner decides to see another man, then, in my eyes that reflects bad on her. Not on me. I'm confident enough as to see what qualities.

Now, am I capable of feeling "anger" or an acute sense of awareness? Of course! I (and some men) live under a code of respect. The adrenalyne that some of us feel when we believe we are going to caught somebody doing something to disrespect or take advantage of us is similar to what you describe as jealousy. What you felt was that awareness. It was not jealousy.
Now...here is a way to differentiate "jealousy" for "acute sense of awareness" (for lack of better term): the outcome.

The outcome? Yes. What would be the outcome if you catch her betraying you with another man. If you do something destructive, then that's "jealousy" (unless you found her having sex in YOUR house - that's the equivalent of a man breaking into your home and some action shall be taken).

If you simply dump her and don't give her a second chance...then you did NOT feel jealousy.
 

resilient

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Ah.. my biggest relationship issue that I can never seem to get handled...
  1. What's the best method to avoid jealousy of her guy friends and persistant ex's completely?
  2. Should one plate spin to combat those feelings that lead to oneitis?
Jealousy is valid if she's kinoing guys infront of you or having emotional affairs (usually to vent about you) with other men who are interested in her. It shows disrespect and lack of interest level to you. I've also learned it shows insecurity to confront her about persuing other guys while in a relationship with you or to call a guy out and tell him to respect your relationship and not make any further advances with your g/f | wife. It's at this point where all power is lost and given to her because you reacted and kicks you to the curb for getting jealous at her wh0ring instincts.

I've been told in the past to not show signs of jealousy/insecurity and let her sh!t tests past, but man that's just not cool if she secretly wants the other male friend or will sleep with him while your away. Not cool.

The only solution I can think of is spinning plates, but does that keep their interest level reeled in for a healthy LTR. I'd rather try to control my emotions than control her. Either way.. man can still trump her with the walk away card. Let some other AFC pick up the baggage when you bail on her I say.
 

Rollo Tomassi

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LATINOMAN: Sorry, but I don't buy it. I'm not saying there aren't methods for regulating and controling the effects, but to say you don't feel jealousy is disingenuous. What you do with that impulse is another thing entirely - you can allow it to evolve into insecurity or you can do as you've done and keep it in check. It's a biological response and comes with liabilities, but to say it doesn't happen is false.
 

Latinoman

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"What's the best method to avoid jealousy of her guy friends and persistant ex's completely?"

Are they better than you? If you feel they are better than you, then I see why you might feel jealousy. Either way, there is something call respect. A concept that women truly don't understand in the sense that they don't see how important is for a man to be respected by others. We live by that code.

"Should one plate spin to combat those feelings that lead to oneitis?"

Sorry, but I don't know what oneitis is.


"Jealousy is valid if she's kinoing guys infront of you or having emotional affairs (usually to vent about you) with other men who are interested in her. It shows disrespect and lack of interest level to you."

Jealousy is NEVER valid. In fact, jealousy is how insecurity manifest on you. If she is doing all those things, then she lacks respect for you. You MUST put a stop to it. You see? You are suppose to COMMAND respect. If you don't COMMAND respect, then she will start doing those things, in which case you must DEMMAND respect. If she still lacking that respect, then you dump her and stop 100% communication with her.

" I've also learned it shows insecurity to confront her about persuing other guys while in a relationship with you or to call a guy out and tell him to respect your relationship and not make any further advances with your g/f | wife. It's at this point where all power is lost and given to her because you reacted and kicks you to the curb for getting jealous at her wh0ring instincts."

I disagree. DEMANDING respect is not a show of insecurity. Telling her to "stop talking" with somebody is not the correct approach. I mean, she is suppose to have friends too. But talking to an ex-boyfriend that she used to be INTIMATE and had sex (only exception is ex-husband due to children) or doing KINO in a man is lack of respect for you and you must tell her that. Now, you notice that you are NOT telling her what to do. You are simply telling her what you don't like. You are giving her the choice to do whatever she wants. And if she choose to disrespect you (even after you told her that you feel you are disrespected), then you simply dump her.

"I've been told in the past to not show signs of jealousy/insecurity and let her sh!t tests past, but man that's just not cool if she secretly wants the other male friend or will sleep with him while your away. Not cool."

Simply tell her what you don't like and the importance of living a code of respect it is to you. But don't tell her what to do. Once again, if she STILL choses to do those things, then dump her and stop 100% communication with her.

"The only solution I can think of is spinning plates, but does that keep their interest level reeled in for a healthy LTR. I'd rather try to control my emotions than control her. "

That's a possibility. Controlling emotions is very important. But at the end...demanding (and preferably commanding) respect is the most important thing.

I have a very attractive woman. I know that men look at her. But NONE dare to play games with her...certainly not when I'm there. Do you know why? Because I command respect. If the men were stupid as to try something, it is up to her to put a stop to them...if she tries and they continue, then it is up to me to demand that respect. But if she doesn't try, then I need to talk to her...if she continues, then I dump her.

Simple as that.

And this is my opinion on this issue.
 

Latinoman

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Rollo Tomassi said:
LATINOMAN: Sorry, but I don't buy it. I'm not saying there aren't methods for regulating and controling the effects, but to say you don't feel jealousy is disingenuous. What you do with that impulse is another thing entirely - you can allow it to evolve into insecurity or you can do as you've done and keep it in check. It's a biological response and comes with liabilities, but to say it doesn't happen is false.
To say that it happened when I was younger and in my 20s (still developing into the man I wanted to be) is correct. To say that I recognize that to be an issue of insecurity and in a way putting another man at a higher esteem than me; consequently, I worked on that is also correct.

Feeling anger or having an acute feeling that somebody (your woman) is trying to play you and having that feeling translate to anger (due to the disrespect) or hurt is another thing. It is more adrenalyne and an acute feeling that something POTENTIALLY bad could be happening. The feeling of betrayal and potential hurt.

Jealousy is watching her with another man. You didn't watch her with anyone. So, how can you feel jealousy of another man?

Envy is another bad feeling. And that is in my view even worst.
 

Never try to read a woman's mind. It is a scary place. Ignore her confusing signals and mixed messages. Assume she is interested in you and act accordingly.

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Desdinova said:
It's all denial. The guy wants to hear the answer he's looking for. He will continue to pursue that answer until he hears it or gets a obvious rejection (restraining order). Even if she tells him "I hate you", he'll pursue her and tell her that he can change. Again, he's looking for the answer he wants, and he's willing to work for it.

He'd rather live in denial than accept the truth.
I agree with Desdinova here. This is an all too familiar scenario for me. (See the sticky of my thread at the top of the forum.)

While suspicion and jealousy do indeed produce a physiological response, it is not a pleasant feeling. I never sought out that feeling, I just didnt want to believe what I was seeing and hearing. It is easier to live in denial than accept an excruciating truth. At least you can sleep at night with denial. Jealousy will eat you alive.
 

Desdinova

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However, he also consistently snoops and pries into her personal space and 'checks up' on her with the preknowledge that he's no longer an intimate of hers.
He's still looking for the answer he wants. He can't accept the fact that she just quit loving him (remember, the woman is perfect), so he's going to find the answer: who or what caused her to stop loving him? Once he knows that, he can change it, threaten it, or eliminate it.

He's likely already told her that he can change, and she's responded with "it's not you, it's me". But it couldn't be her, because she is the "perfect woman".

I didn't want the drama that I had with my ex. I wanted us to live happily ever after. When she left, I looked for the answer of who or what caused her to stop loving me. I found the proof he existed, but I had no clue who he was. What would be my next step after I found out who he was? I had no clue. My actions were based on my emotion.

The pussified man is trained to behave very much like a woman, acting on his emotions. However, from what I can see, drama doesn't give man a much needed emotional rush. Men seem to prefer continuous happiness and will work through a lot of bull5hit hoping to achieve it.
 

penkitten

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i really enjoyed this thread.

i believe that acting out due to jealousy is not usually a good thing, and that we should all learn at some point that until another person crosses a line (where they are cheating ) that we should just keep our cool and let things roll off our backs. we shouldnt have to check up on the other person and we shouldnt have to feel like we should pry either.

the only problem with this is that alot of people want to be so laid back about it that when someone starts actually cheating on them they just let the other person walk all over that line.


i hope what i just wrote made sense to some one out there.
 

Bourne

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This is good thread.

Anyone care to elaborate on how to get rid of feeling jealous and how to deal with it. How you guys dealt with it and what tips/advice can you give us?
 

newbie81

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Bourne said:
This is good thread.

Anyone care to elaborate on how to get rid of feeling jealous and how to deal with it. How you guys dealt with it and what tips/advice can you give us?
Feeling jealous is normal.

But you choose how you react to these feelings/emotions.

Best thing is to don't care
Just don't care about her talking about other guys
Just don't care about her seeing other guys

SHOWING that you're not jealous confirms that you are
1.not needy
2 confident

As long as she doesn't cheat on you, don't care!
 

Create self-fulfilling prophecies. Always assume the positive. Assume she likes you. Assume she wants to talk to you. Assume she wants to go out with you. When you think positive, positive things happen.

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Interesting thread. Never thought of it in that way (mainly because I haven't given it all that much thought), but it makes perfect sense, Rollo.

Funny that, even though I've never cheated on a GF (though that's when I tend to have the most opportunities), nor have I ever (to my knowledge) been cheated upon, I tend to have low expectations regarding people's fidelity. I think men tend to be naturally programmed to want sex with any woman to which they're sufficiently attracted, and women tend to want the available man to which they're most attracted -- whether or not they have to share him. To go against this tendency takes a great deal of love for one's partner and (if the person is generally considered desirable enough) a great deal of discipline and strength.

This is totally congruent with jerks and b1tches being jerks that way because they can be. Those who can get most anyone they want have to be of exceptional character not to go ahead and do it -- or to even be straight up about what they're doing.
 

Sinistar

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Agreed, a good thread indeed!

I know I've run this idea before, but it seems relevant here.

Rollo, when Mrs-T rolled through that intersection my guess would be that it was an event that you did not expect? And since you probably did not expect it, it most likely triggered your self-confessed (and albiet relatively benign) bout of jealousy. I like how you went into detail explaining that the rush was quite chemical, an extremely important learning lesson in life, that often feelings which seem out of place can be based on simple, recognizeable, manageable chemical reaction in our bodies.

Now I would like to hypothesize that had you previously expected Mrs.T to generally travel that route and at those times, your reaction might have been quite different (actually indifferent). Perhaps a simple smile or chuckle. So is it possible that your 10 minute bout was triggered by some type of conditioning or more likely the first instance of a certain expectation being falsefied (for lack of a better word right now).

Going on to Roy and Joanne, or Colossus or whomever I have to think the root of our AFC tendencies/reversions are also unhealthy expectations (or atleast allowing ourselves to formulate them).

I really liked your breakdown of Roy's behaviour. First of all, you are not placing the blame solely on the woman. It takes two to tango and Roy is doing his share of things wrong. At the core, he simply appears to be mega-AFC and using the text-book rescuer/saviour approach to get a girl. Flawed and hopeless we all know, yet he does it and will continue to do so until she walks out on him.

And why is this. Because in his mind he is now filled with an unhealthy set of expectations. For example, I have saved her so I expect her to fall into my arms, love me forever, never leave, blah, blah, blah.

And this brings me to Desdinova's point regarding denial. Yeah, any of us who manage to get ourselves into these messes (and I'm thinking we all have or most of us wouldn't be here) are stir crazy at this point with denial.

Actually, I'd like to take that a bit farther. I really see it as seeking validation (a obvious reframe of denial). Roy wants to know that she is perfect and his perfect world she would select him. And I believe these next words are the key....he desperately needs validation...he needs to know that she needed him.

When our expectations (healthy or unhealthy) are being met, we tend to be more at peace and have no great need for validation. On the other hand when our expectations (especially unhealthy ones) are shattered our bodies and brains go haywire. Jealousy, anger, obsession, depression, analysis, justification, rationalization, etc. Things everyone around us can see except us.

Someone asked how your can cure/avoid/prevent jealousy. I actually do not believe it can be truly avoided. At some point, just as in Rollo-T's example, an expectation/conditioning (whether trivial or not) will be shattered triggering a very simple, yet overpowering chemical reaction that our brains somehow seem to desire.

The best we can do to ward off ONE-itis, jealousy, obsessions, is to realize and avoid unrealistic expectations in the first place. And if its too late, some of the best (and most difficult) medicine is to discover this for ourselves or have someone we trust just tell it to us straight and knock the sh!t out of us with some brutal truth.
 

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JonJack - Good advice man. So if your girl is constantly hanging out with ex-bfs, guys who have interest in her and you're left on the sidelines as sort of her side show act, then that is an appropriate time to pull her aside and end things. If she was clearly hanging out with ex's, guy interests, etc. then it's blatantly apparent that her interest level in attraction for you is rapidly dropping and she's beginning to spin her plates or find the next branch for her to latch onto. I think David D warns against this behavior. He says to spot the red flags or warning signs of her waning interest and to dump her before she gets the chance to sleep with other men behind your back. Most of the time it's the comfort zone and predictability that kills us and promotes them to cheat on us behind our backs.

Bottom line:
Don't show signs of jealousy, BUT! and that's a big but (no pun intended lol) if she actively disrespects you by seeing all these guys or past lovers than it's time to drop her plate and find some new plates to spin. There's only so much sh!t testing a man should respectively take.

Perfect "RESPECT" analogy: (from mirrorofthesoul.blogspot.com blog)
There comes a point in which every new drop overflows the already full container. It is at that point that tolerance evaporates and one goes on the offensive.
 

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newbie81 said:
Feeling jealous is normal.

But you choose how you react to these feelings/emotions.

Best thing is to don't care
Just don't care about her talking about other guys
Just don't care about her seeing other guys

SHOWING that you're not jealous confirms that you are
1.not needy
2 confident

As long as she doesn't cheat on you, don't care!
Telling someone to "not care" when they're jealous is akin to telling Hellen Keller to find my car keys. It's not possible. Not caring does nothing to assuage the feeling nor stop the flood of emotions which come with the onset of jealousy. The way I've been able to keep that demon at bay is by confronting and analyzing that which makes me feel that way. I've realized it's an internalized mechanism to guard that which you percieve is yours. We're all territorial in nature. The trick is to accept the fact that you own nothing but what you were shat out with. After that you're pickin' daisies.

Rollo, This is a great post. When are we all on for dinner again?
 

newbie81

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KarmaSutra said:
We're all territorial in nature. The trick is to accept the fact that you own nothing but what you were shat out with. After that you're pickin' daisies.
I agree. What I meant was that some people react to feeling jealous by starting to act like Colombo and their gf.
 

Don't always be the one putting yourself out for her. Don't always be the one putting all the effort and work into the relationship. Let her, and expect her, to treat you as well as you treat her, and to improve the quality of your life.

Quote taken from The SoSuave Guide to Women and Dating, which you can read for FREE.

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