For all those who got dumped and hoping for a chance to get back.

cynetix said:

I guess I have more to say on the principle of moving from LJBF to LFRN (I'm sure you can guess that one http://www.sosuave.com/ubb/wink.gif.

You've heard it before. "It can't be done." "Okay, it can be done but it's usually not worth it." "Let it go."

But how not-worth-it is it? Well, I will TELL YOU how to get out of LJBF (providing it's possible) and set up obstacles in your way. So if you are that AFC seeking to get the girl of your dreams to stop thinking of you as a neutered cactus, then read on and try to persevere.

So: if you truly are in the friend zone AND have hope of getting out, do the following steps.

1....WAIT, STOP THE BUS. There are some PREREQUISITES!

0a. Decide if she is important enough for this. Now, most guys in the friend zone got there because they think that she is The One, so with this kind of thinking how would it be possible to not think she was important? The AFC in this situation would naturally come to me on hands and knees saying, Yes, cynetix, if there's anything I could do to get her...I will do it! Cook for you for a year? NO PROBLEM. Just tell me where to sign.

Good. You need to be willing to cook for me for a year (and if you can't cook, you'll have to learn!) because that's the kind of sacrifice to which you are committing. Actually, cooking is not even a CONTINUED EMOTIONAL INVESTMENT, so you're better off making meals for me.

Okay, of course we aren't talking about cooking literally. But if you don't have that kind of willingness, isn't that a sign that she is not important enough? Let me answer that for you: yes.

0b. Decide if ANYONE is important enough to you for this affair.

If I told you that there is someone better than her out there that you can get, how would you respond?

Response 1: You're right.
cynetix: Good answer! You win a shiny new freedom. Here're the keys.

Response 2: I know, but I don't think I can find/get whomever she is.
cynetix: So what you're saying is that she's the best you can do? That's cattle crap. You're playing the very rewarding video game of dating, and you finally managed after all these years to beat the first level before dying, and that satisfies you? My advice, my dear friend, is to work on that self-confidence. Fill your life with fun, not this same old self-pity!

Response 3: No, there is no one better.
cynetix: *reminisces* Hmm...I once thought that too. Okay, it's worth a shot.

I hope I have loosened, if possible, the idea that she is The One. If you don't
think she is, don't even bother trying.

0c. Look at the effect you have on her.

Don't spend too long on this one. Just ask yourself if she has the time of her life when she's with you. Do you make her truly happy? Happy because she's with you, and not because you buy her gifts or listen to her girly-talk? If not, stop here. It is not worth it.

0d. Examine your gut to find out if you have hope, a.k.a. What About Physical Attraction?

Of PARAMOUNT importance. Does she touch you naturally? Disregard what she has said, even if it seemed blatantly flirtatious or complimentary at the time. Look into your gut and ask yourself if she is attracted to you. You ALREADY KNOW. If you say "yes" but have a guilty feeling in your gut, it is probably no. You need to move on, brother.

So you've made it all the way to here, and I commend you. But you know, the hard work hasn't even started. So let's get going.

1. Cut her off. No phone calls, meetings, e-mails, messages, instant messages, or cutesy notes.

Cutting her off WILL ENSURE that she initiates contact with you sooner or later. If she doesn't, then she doesn't give a shìt.

If you see her on your normal schedule, do your best to avoid speaking with her. Even cut down on eye contact and warm smiling as much as you can without being an ass-hole about it. And see #2.

2. On your end, make sure your excuses are good and valid for why you haven't talked to her/seen her, when you finally do. By the way, you REALLY should be doing things like pursuing your own life and its hobbies and taking care of school/work. What the hell is the point of getting her if you don't even have a life?

3. This is where it gets complicated. You need to very vigilantly keep up a pattern FOR A WHILE where she does most of the initiating and you do too but very infrequently. The ratio of her initiating to your initiating will vary on your situation, but at the LEAST it should be 2 to 1, and there should be LONG gaps between the occasions you spend together.

When you do spend time together, it will be a balance between making sure she has a GREAT time (you can reminisce about old times, but not too much!), but don't draw it out.

Know this: you will think the game is over--that she likes you now, that she wants you now--but it is not!. Do not end the game here. You have sacrificed too much time to be running the foolish risk of ruining everything. It is possible that when you get enough signals you will think you have reached your goal. But I say that it is still very precarious, unless she straight-out tells you she wants to go to bed with you.

Keep it up longer. You may think the game is over time and time again. Keep it up until you are SURE.

Reading this, are you starting to fear that she will not give in? Realize: that fear = fear of lost girl. Everyone says this, and I will say it too: You Must Be Willing To Lose Her!

This is why there are all those prerequisites above. Not only must she be really worth your time, but your CONTINUED EMOTIONAL INVESTMENT in this affair must also be worth your time.

4. The holy grail, a.k.a. Her Warm Juices

Well, in some way or another there will be a reconciliation between the two of you. She might be fed up with your unresponsiveness, aloofness, unavailability and whatnot. She might be annoyed that you are always running out on the conversation and leaving her wanting more. She might even be pissed at you by now, and not just pretending to be pissed.

She must be pleading with you to spend time with her. She must be willing to show that she has missed you so incredibly. Believe me, you will know if she sees you differently than she did before. Her entire pattern of actions will be completely unrecognizable from what she used to do.

So now it begins. Ask her out on a date, as if it were the first time ever. Touch her lightly, use your eyes to tell her you want to devour her, and kis...

*the record falls off*

This is how far I have gotten. I cannot advise more because it would not be from my experience. But in two weeks I will let you know.

Good luck, gentlemen. This is a serious-sounding post, but I still remind you to have FUN with her! Be happy, alive, and confident. You need to adopt DJ mentality before you bother with any of this.

cynetix

[This message has been edited by cynetix (edited 01-26-2002).]

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cynetix said:

Update 1.

My friends, I would like to thank you. I have finally taken control of my (love) life. Aside from this girl with whom I have wanted a serious LTR, there are other relationships where I've completely turned things around. There is even one girl who has agreed to the terms of the "booty call" because she cannot stand the idea of not being with me--she wants monogamy, but knows that I don't, and is "trying to get used to how non-needy" (her words exactly!) I am now.

So what has happened with this wonderful girl (a 9.5 and 10 on the looks and personality scales, to me) who LJBF'ed me more than a year ago?

I asked her out last week to a hike this last weekend. We went up into the mountains, and it was rainy and cold and would have been a miserable outing if it were not for my positive attitude and our mutual sense of adventure. It turned out to be an absolute blast.

On the way back, she started reminiscing about another time we spent together months ago, and I stopped the car immediately in the middle of the road and kissed her. She was, obviously, extremely surprised, and speechless.

I stepped on the gas again and made conversation continuing where we had left off and held her hand off and on. By the time we returned to town half an hour later she was excited, telling me how enjoyable the day was. By the time I dropped her off and kissed her again and left her room with a seductive "bye" and a grin, she was all smiles.

I will vigilantly hold off contact for at least a week--easily done, since I have a busy school schedule--and ask her out again.

I will post again on this subject as it further develops. This girl is mine.

cynetix

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cynetix said:

Update 2.

Things are much different than I had anticipated. The news is bad, but it's also good.

After our hiking date which we both so much enjoyed, we had a few outings which I initiated. Knowing I was very much in control, I'd call her up about once a week and tell her we were going out. She was always enthusiastic. On one occasion she was sick in bed and had been coughing all day--I didn't know this until we met up--but still wanted to go out. That was the night I went to kiss her again but she declined because she didn't want to get me sick. Some of you might have seen that post over in the Discussion forum.

So how did things change? Did I lose control? Did I exude AFC behavior all of a sudden? Did I decide she was less beautiful? Did someone else come along?

No, not really.

I decided that I was putting too much emotional investment into the affair. I thought about the Don Juan forums and how I wrote about my long-term goal of making her crave me (this thread). I realized that even though I could continue and probably end up hot and heavy with her, it was taking too long and was by far too arduous a task.

You guys have to understand something about her. I've known this girl for 18 months, and both of our lives have been transformed in positive ways by our mutual company.

When I look back on all this time pursuing her (not my sole project, but you know what I mean), I do grant that I made many mistakes in the beginning with AFCness. Magically, she stayed interested through tried-and-true fück-ups on my part. For example, 14 months ago I gave her the "Friend Or Lover" ultimatum (she declined). 11 months ago, after we had been dating for a while, she couldn't make it to a camping trip I had planned for the two of us. I blew up, and all my insecurities came out: I told her that the fact she cancelled was prime evidence she didn't care about me enough.

But no, despite all this, my AFCness was not the primary problem. It WAS a huge problem, and has since then been remedied to a huge degree (I have you soldiers to thank for that!), but the reason we are incompatible is the girl herself.

She has an issue with emotional attachment that I am no longer willing to help her deal with. There's actually a lot about this, which is quite personal to her, so I won't get into any of it. Regardless, it's something she needs to figure out on her own. All this time we have been dancing circles around each other: she withdraws, she approaches; she steps way back yet complains about our not being intimate enough.

A month ago, I finally understood all of this and decided to cut all contact. I understood that I really, truly needed to be okay with just walking away if my love life was going to continue positively. I understood that it would be painful but moving on was an imperative.

It was painful...but today I am starting to see clearly again. There are other girls around, and one I'm particularly interested in, with whom I had a nice swimming/dinner date last weekend (whoo--swimming is a delicious KINO opportunity, by the way!), but I no longer care that much about this whole LJBF transition anymore. I hope that, soon, I can not care at all.

I was scared to write an update before today, because I didn't want to bring this thread to a negative ending. This was, I know, an utterly ridiculous fear to harbor.

I was compelled to write, because I have finally internalized the necessity and desire to leave her permanently.

In short, this LJBF -> LFRN transition is not worth it.

cynetix

[This message has been edited by cynetix (edited 03-14-2002).]

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cynetix said:

The issue of "The One"
The "update" I had promised to post happened so long ago that it barely seems like an update anymore, but I will still write of it, and also give an update to that update *grin*.

First, I need to qualify for you what this girl means to me and the role she seems to have played so far in my life. This subject of "her role in my life" is a HUGE one and of GREAT interest and I will address it again at the end of the post as well as right now.

She's really special to me. I had major one-itis, for sure, and it was actually justified. (Plenty of cases of one-itis are NOT as justified, meaning they arise primarily because you do not have enough going on in your life and/or are desperate to get it on with the only love interest that is currently paying any attention to you.) On these grounds, I can now reveal the conclusion:

We are not together...not even really talking...but I believe it is a good thing, and while we really may end up together one day, I sincerely believe our ways will part for at least several years, and that is good.

So, to rewind the tape to that "amusing update"...!

She went on a trip overseas and upon returning was so excited to see me that she wanted to do stuff all the time. I was a little surprised by this but indulged her a little and figured I'd try her out to see where she was on the whole romance thing.

So I asked her once when we were out to lunch how her love life was doing, and she said nonexistent. She asked me about mine, and as I did have some rather complicated girl drama issues I told her about some of it.

A little background here: we had never talked about relationships. Maybe it was always that way and maybe it contributed to the LJBFing in the first place, but that was just the way it was.

So now here she was dying to know and prodding me about details, almost apprehensively so. She wanted to know if I was seeing anyone, the sexual intimacy details involved with them, etc. There had been none of this in the past.

So...interesting. I dropped her off and we arranged to meet later in the evening.

Much later we walk to this park and she's hanging on to me like a drunk girl who can't walk straight (though she's sober) and is telling me how much she had missed me and so on. I am getting so many vibes that I decide the night is a good night to close the deal.

On our way back we start talking about learning from past experiences, and the conversation happens like this:

Me: It's awesome being able to look back on situations that used to intimidate you but realizing that they don't anymore.
Her: Like what?
Well like simply talking to girls for example...I used to be so intimidated but now it's so obvious that it's not really a big deal.
I see...Good job!
But it's funny...I can't reconcile why I was able to get over that so easily, but

*I circle around in front of her and put my arms on her waist*

when I do this, I still feel scared shìtless. Why is that?
*Clearly nervous now* I don't know, why is that?
Hehe, I was hoping YOU would answer that!
Well I feel it too--this uncomfortable feeling (not a good sign)
I think we need to resolve it once and for all
I agree. How do you think we could do that?

From there, I gave her the look, and then moved in to kiss...and this is where you are welcome to flame away for my approach above...because she pushed me away.

!!!

I really thought she was telling me all day and night that she wanted me, with her language and gestures and posture and all that, but I was utterly wrong. I even asked her why she was scared, and she said that it was possible she was scared, but more likely that she just didn't want to.

This was "amusing" to me because I would have never in our past have been able to do this, and now that I was able...it ended up this way.

We are leaving the distant past now...

---
To date, our contact has fallen off. I know that you all (or anyone that is interested in this thread) wished very much that my sequel would be a "positive" one, something that will give you hope. A story to validate the LJBF to LFRN transition and show that it is possible.

I don't have a story that enacts it like you want to see it...but what I have to say subsequently is extremely positive.

You see, I was very right and very wrong when I said long ago that I needed to end our relationship and we were incompatible. I was right that our relationship needed to end, but compatibility was always there, and I always knew it, no matter how much I tried to deny it.

The point is, I have only recently really, truly, confronted the actual issue at hand, which is this: WHY did I like her so much? Why do I feel she is without flaw, even though I know logically that she OF COURSE CANNOT BE PERFECT? Passing her off as "not significant" is DENIAL. I know that the DJs here will tell you again and again that she's "just another fish in the sea."

It is true, but there is SOMETHING, or many things, about her that is very special, and I say you should not overlook that. It will always come back to haunt you until you face it. Embrace it. Use that intuition to discover WHY you like her the way you do. WHAT is it about her that turns you into a simpering AFC no matter how suave you are with the other girls?

Do you not realize that because she drives you nuts from wanting to be with her, that she is compelling you to improve yourself? To know yourself better, to become more confident, to rid yourself of those flaws that you feel she exposes every time you come anywhere near her?

I believe that her role in your life is to make you a better man. Were it not for her, you would be an ignorant fool still bumbling around in darkness. Her presence is capable of lifting you up higher than you could ever have imagined. And thus her presence is a double-edged sword. You cannot have her, you will not have her, at least not at this stage in your life (we are probably talking about anytime within the next five years, if at all), because if you DID then you would not be compelled to improve.

Therefore.

Let her disappear.

You cannot succeed until you do.

cynetix

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NMMWCR said:

I believe that her role in your life is to make you a better man. Were it not for her, you would be an ignorant fool still bumbling around in darkness. Her presence is capable of lifting you up higher than you could ever have imagined. And thus her presence is a double-edged sword. You cannot have her, you will not have her, at least not at this stage in your life (we are probably talking about anytime within the next five years, if at all), because if you DID then you would not be compelled to improve.

Sounds like Jungian synchronicity to me. You had some kind of internal issue that needed to be dealt with so your subconsious latched onto this girl to provide you with incentive to confront an internal fear.

There is an amusing (if wordy!) primer on this precise process at http://www.seducingwomen101.com Worth a read if you want to dig at the root of WHY you develop irrational compulsive behavior around certain women who happen to display your archetype characteristics.

Great post cynetix. There are far too posts around here delving into what our compulsions MEAN. Everyone is so busy trying to figure out HOW that hardly anyone takes to the time to determine WHY.

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cynetix said:

Originally posted by NewMan
So what I get here, is that us guy's are really miss reading these womens intentions - or rather their words do not correspond to their actions?

So the question is, how do we differentiate and really find out what the hell is going on?

...

I think as guys we give women to much power over us.
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Exactly! We give them SO MUCH, in fact, that the only way to really KNOW what the hell is going on is to NOT HAVE TO CARE!

Does that seem ridiculous? If so, think about it long and hard.

The mere attitude we have of wanting to know what's going on inside women's heads and what their intentions are is severely counterproductive.

The bottom line is, these girls LIKE us. A whole lot, I might add! If we could only just let them like us without second guessing their moves and getting in THEIR way, all battles would be won. (At least, they used to like us--and we, by not already "knowing" that they did, gave ourselves the grand opportunity to screw everything up.)

Do you think it's mere coincidence that the more you like a particular girl, the more she seems to fück with your head?

Do you think that you like her that much BECAUSE she has the tendency to fück you up so you can't think straight anymore?

Of course not.

You're getting fücked up because you like her so much.

Look at it this way: any girl you are ready, and feel you have to "fight for" is almost by default unavailable to you because you feel she is putting up a fight. It is almost a surefire signal that you are not ready, because the greatest obstacle in the way is still your own inchoate self. And if you really understand where I am coming from, then it is crystal clear that this is good news.

cynetix

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Stugots26 said:

It depends. My LDR plate backed off because she was really starting to like me (I was doing everything right), so she freaked out and pushed me away. I agreed to it, and went NC for 20 days. She got in touch just before New Years trying to invite me out to see her. I basically said, "Uh no, you pushed me away and started treating me like a second class citizen. I'd love to see you, but you're coming to my city if you want to see me." Immediately she booked a ticket and is now purring like a kitten getting ready for a weekend of getting the **** fvcked out of her, wanting to make it up to me.

It's not always that they dump you for someone else, sometimes they get overwhelmed by how much they're into you and worry that they'll get hurt. But attraction is not a choice, so if you give them time and space they eventually succumb to the attraction. I admit it's the minority of cases but it can happen. You also have to do ABSOLUTELY EVERYTHING TEXTBOOK from the beginning. No begging, no calling, no texting. If you sense a dump in your future, just prepare for her return, and don't ignore once she reaches out.

I have never had a woman not come back and regret her decision to end things with me. If you accept the "breakup" and don't seek closure, they will check back in and you can at least get some sex. If you've evolved as a man and a Don Juan, you can totally be in control of the relationship and have her mesmerized by you. Totally doable.

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Stugots26 said:

It depends. My LDR plate backed off because she was really starting to like me (I was doing everything right), so she freaked out and pushed me away. I agreed to it, and went NC for 20 days. She got in touch just before New Years trying to invite me out to see her. I basically said, "Uh no, you pushed me away and started treating me like a second class citizen. I'd love to see you, but you're coming to my city if you want to see me." Immediately she booked a ticket and is now purring like a kitten getting ready for a weekend of getting the **** fvcked out of her, wanting to make it up to me.

It's not always that they dump you for someone else, sometimes they get overwhelmed by how much they're into you and worry that they'll get hurt. But attraction is not a choice, so if you give them time and space they eventually succumb to the attraction. I admit it's the minority of cases but it can happen. You also have to do ABSOLUTELY EVERYTHING TEXTBOOK from the beginning. No begging, no calling, no texting. If you sense a dump in your future, just prepare for her return, and don't ignore once she reaches out.

I have never had a woman not come back and regret her decision to end things with me. If you accept the "breakup" and don't seek closure, they will check back in and you can at least get some sex. If you've evolved as a man and a Don Juan, you can totally be in control of the relationship and have her mesmerized by you. Totally doable.

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Stugots26 said:

I sensed her pushing me away. She just didn't initiate like she had been. It was night and day, immediate, and so I knew what to expect. I did try to communicate, but she didn't seem interested and I also had a friend and colleague die and she knew about it and didn't even bother to express her condolences. She just wasn't being the loving woman I knew she usually was with me. So I just accepted it and did my own thing.

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Stugots26 said:

If you were with her for any significant (even just a few months) period of time and you could tell that her emotions were engaged with you, like she would gush and gush and just be obsessive about you, then she'll reach out eventually. Guaranteed. Women who are intimate with men who they were in love with for any period of time do not disappear forever.

When she gets in touch, just assume it's because she wants to see you and say, "Hey, great to hear from you. When are you free to get together?"

If she tells you when she's free, you invite her over to your place and tell her to bring wine. She's got work to do to win you over again. She's got to invest before you do. Make sure you seduce her and seal the deal. If she won't come over, say that it's been a long week and you'd just like to chill at home but if she doesn't want to, she should get back to you in a couple of weeks and maybe you'd be up for something more formal then (takeaway). Of course when she tries again, you give her the exact same routine (come over to your place). She has to be willing to make the effort.

If she won't make a date or makes excuses tell her to check her calendar and let her know when she's free and end the conversation. Ask her on 2 consecutive occasions and then never bring up getting together again until she brings it up first. She'll either stop contacting you or bring it up herself.

You've got the tools to reattract her, because at some point - if she is seeing another dude - he's going to screw up.

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GS750 said:

If she realizes what she's lost, maybe she'll come back and behave. If she's seeing someone and he fvcks up she may appreciate you more than ever.

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