Any advice on how to fight a traffic violation

R

Rubato

Guest
I got pulled over today for going 32 over the speed limit. I have a prior from July going 17 over.

The long and the short of this is that if I get convicted of this, I will lose my license for 6 months to a year!!!

I can't have that happen.

Besides finding a good attorney, do any of you have any advice about how to go about fighting this? If I had been going 3 miles an hour less, I wouldn't be in this position, and I can make a pretty good argument using the doppler effect principle from physics that that the radar could be inaccurate by at least 3 miles per hour. I can explain all of that to you if you'd like. But really, I need some ideas on the best way to resolve this situation without having a 4th degree misdemeanor and my license suspended.

Ideas?
 

Vice

Master Don Juan
Joined
Oct 23, 2007
Messages
2,006
Reaction score
186
Was the equipment the officer used to track your speed calibrated? Was his training on said equipment current?

Best thing is to just follow the speed limit; you save more gas that way.
 

joverby

Master Don Juan
Joined
May 12, 2011
Messages
599
Reaction score
9
I like where Vice is going with it. That's the type of approach a lawyer would use. Just have to create reasonable doubt that he could've made a mistake in using the equipment or the equipment could be faulty etc.

Other than that just level with the judge and talk about how you need it to work and contribute to the economy etc. Also if you are in any clubs or volunteering that would probably help as you can state that for a reason you need the car.
 
R

Rubato

Guest
Vice said:
Was the equipment the officer used to track your speed calibrated? Was his training on said equipment current?

Best thing is to just follow the speed limit; you save more gas that way.
I have no idea to either of those 2 questions, but realize they are important. They will be addressed at trial.

I do have some legal training (I was pre-law for 4 years, have a BA in political science and worked in a lawyers office for ~1 year doing legal research, filing, and briefing) and plan to file a discovery motion tomorrow morning in the court for the following items:

-FCC Public Safety Radio Services (or Radar) License
-Radar Documents:
-Make, Model, Serial Number, Options, Age
-Manufacturer Certificate of Calibration
-Operator manual and Specifications
-Calibration Lot Sheets (date, due, lab)
-Tuning Fork documents:
-Specifications (Band, Speed, Resonance, Resonance Tolerance)
-Calibration Log Sheets (date, due, lab)
-Officer Training/Qualifications:
-Certificate of Competency
-Training Material
-Officer Training Records
-All Policies pertainting to radar use
-Officer Notes (my case), and log book (from today).

I have constructed a map using satilte images from tax maps (I don't think the courts would rule against the accuracy of a map used to collect taxes). I am going to plot the minimum and maximum estimated distances between my car and the police car on the road and submit a petition for the officer to verify my information and correct if necessary. I am going to leave later tonight and measure the width of the road, the lanes, and my car. I have obtained the width of the police car from the manufacturer's website.

Using this information, it's possible to construct a probability plot based on the estimated minimum and maximum distances the police officer and I agree we could have been seperated by at the time of the interception that describes the percent error of the radar. There is error inherent in all radar operation when it is not used at 0 degrees (straight on). It detects a signal as a function of cosine and thus is perfectly accurate at 0 degrees and perfectly inaccurate at 90 degrees (perpendicular). The officer tagged me at 87 miles per hour in a 55 mile per hour zone. That puts me at 32 miles per hour over. If I had been going 29.9999999999 miles over, I would not be in this position. That means if I can prove the radar was inaccurate by 6.25% or more, I will be fine. I don't mind another speeding ticket.

So my case is not that I wasn't speeding, my case is that I was not going 87 miles per hour, but going less than 85 miles per hour. The doppler effect will also be useful in resolving this case in my favor.

So this is where I am at. I haven't given any of the math because I don't think most people will care.

Does any one have any other ideas I may not have thought of?
 
R

Rubato

Guest
Vice said:
Was the equipment the officer used to track your speed calibrated? Was his training on said equipment current?

Best thing is to just follow the speed limit; you save more gas that way.
I have no idea to either of those 2 questions, but realize they are important. They will be addressed at trial.

I do have some legal training (I was pre-law for 4 years, have a BA in political science and worked in a lawyers office for ~1 year doing legal research, filing, and briefing) and plan to file a discovery motion tomorrow morning in the court for the following items:

-FCC Public Safety Radio Services (or Radar) License
-Radar Documents:
-Make, Model, Serial Number, Options, Age
-Manufacturer Certificate of Calibration
-Operator manual and Specifications
-Calibration Lot Sheets (date, due, lab)
-Tuning Fork documents:
-Specifications (Band, Speed, Resonance, Resonance Tolerance)
-Calibration Log Sheets (date, due, lab)
-Officer Training/Qualifications:
-Certificate of Competency
-Training Material
-Officer Training Records
-All Policies pertainting to radar use
-Officer Notes (my case), and log book (from today).

I have constructed a map using satilte images from tax maps (I don't think the courts would rule against the accuracy of a map used to collect taxes). I am going to plot the minimum and maximum estimated distances between my car and the police car on the road and submit a petition for the officer to verify my information and correct if necessary. I am going to leave later tonight and measure the width of the road, the lanes, and my car. I have obtained the width of the police car from the manufacturer's website.

Using this information, it's possible to construct a probability plot based on the estimated minimum and maximum distances the police officer and I agree we could have been seperated by at the time of the interception that describes the percent error of the radar. There is error inherent in all radar operation when it is not used at 0 degrees (straight on). It detects a signal as a function of cosine and thus is perfectly accurate at 0 degrees and perfectly inaccurate at 90 degrees (perpendicular). The officer tagged me at 87 miles per hour in a 55 mile per hour zone. That puts me at 32 miles per hour over. If I had been going 29.9999999999 miles over, I would not be in this position. That means if I can prove the radar was inaccurate by 6.25% or more, I will be fine. I don't mind another speeding ticket.

So my case is not that I wasn't speeding, my case is that I was not going 87 miles per hour, but going less than 85 miles per hour. The doppler effect will also be useful in resolving this case in my favor.

So this is where I am at. I haven't given any of the math because I don't think most people will care.

Does any one have any other ideas I may not have thought of?
 

At this point you probably have a woman (or multiple women) chasing you around, calling you all the time, wanting to be with you. So let's talk about how to KEEP a woman interested in you once you have her. This is BIG! There is nothing worse than getting dumped by a woman that you really, really like.

Quote taken from The SoSuave Guide to Women and Dating, which you can read for FREE.

Bible_Belt

Master Don Juan
Joined
Jul 27, 2005
Messages
17,104
Reaction score
5,735
Age
48
Location
midwestern cow field 40
Even lawyers don't represent themselves, especially for traffic tickets. When you pay the right attorney, what you're buying is his experience with that judge, state's atty, and courtroom. He'll know what you can plead down to, and what you can get, versus what you can't.

Don't just plead innocent, request a trial, and then impersonate Perry Mason. That may have worked for somebody, somewhere, but the odds are that it won't be you. You'll have to pay extra court costs, and the judge will give you the maximum fine and punishment, because he'll be mad at you for wasting his time.

A good attorney is worth the money, but there are a lot of bad ones. The lawyer I use is a younger guy. Old lawyers tend to be lazy. And so are the younger ones whose daddy owns the firm where they work.

Also, a common lawyer scam is that they get you to hand over the retainer fee based upon a promise to use some sort of crooked connection at the courthouse to get your case dismissed. Then they say that person quit, you get the standard plea deal that everybody gets, and they keep all your money for doing nothing. There's no one to complain to if you thought you were doing something illegal in the first place.
 
R

Rubato

Guest
@Bible Belt - key word..... "right attorney".

It's easier said than done to find the "right attorney".

And don't worry. I wasn't planning on Perry Masoning this one. I just want to know what I'm talking about before I meet with the lawyer so I can minimize what I pay him for. I'm experierenced enough in law to know that lawyers, especially the good ones, aren't cheap.
 

speed dawg

Master Don Juan
Joined
Jun 9, 2006
Messages
4,766
Reaction score
1,235
Location
The Dirty South
How about you sack up and pay up?

Most police officers and state troopers won't even attempt to pull you over unless you are going 10 mph over the posted limit. This is from a state trooper's mouth. The reason is so there is no confusion about calibration and all that other garbage.

You were speeding, you got caught, so pay up, pal. Or go spend all your money hiring a top notch lawyer.

If you're on the verge of losing your license for 6 months, it sounds like you're just a dumbass who needs to learn a lesson about driving.
 

azanon

Master Don Juan
Joined
Aug 8, 2006
Messages
2,292
Reaction score
41
Rubato said:
I got pulled over today for going 32 over the speed limit. I have a prior from July going 17 over.

The long and the short of this is that if I get convicted of this, I will lose my license for 6 months to a year!!!

I can't have that happen.

Besides finding a good attorney, do any of you have any advice about how to go about fighting this? If I had been going 3 miles an hour less, I wouldn't be in this position, and I can make a pretty good argument using the doppler effect principle from physics that that the radar could be inaccurate by at least 3 miles per hour. I can explain all of that to you if you'd like. But really, I need some ideas on the best way to resolve this situation without having a 4th degree misdemeanor and my license suspended.

Ideas?
Never just pay and plead guilty. The past 2 times I went to court over traffic volations, I was let off. Basically only pay a fine if you want to ensure that you lose.

You're the one with attorney experience, but it is my understanding that you can't represent yourself in traffic court. If the maximum fine is a suspended license, I'd definitely get an attorney unless you have some way to work around losing your license for that period.

How about instead of making some lame argument about his radar being off 3 mph against your favor, you simply say the officer must have made a mistake and pulled over the wrong person? The chance you'd be accused of purgery are essentially 0. It's your word against his. And this is only IF the officer shows, and IF the judge actually wants to hear your case. Of course show up dressed casual business, be professional, and not emotional.

Like I said, the last time I went, the judged "passed my case for 6 months". I think he was just tired of hearing cases that day. It's a big deal to you, but to them this is just daily routine.
 

Kupid Diggs

Don Juan
Joined
May 5, 2008
Messages
116
Reaction score
10
Location
Japan
I'm glad this topic has came up...

I too got a speeding ticket about a month ago. I was driving up to Chicago to see my mother. Anyway, I got a speeding ticket in southern Illinois. The officer said I was doing 85 in a 55 zone, a construction zone at that. The officer said that I am required to come to court. I thought that was strange.

A couple of weeks ago I looked at my case online and found out that I am facing criminal charges (Class B Misdemeanor)... :rolleyes:

I don't need this right now. About a week ago I swore into the United State Marine Corps, and I'm in the Delayed Entry Program.

So now I have to take off from work and drive 3.5 - 4 hours away to appear in court. This is a hick town and I'm a black male. So I'm scared they are going to throw the book at me. I can't afford to hire a lawyer...

Does anyone have any advice on what I should do?
 
R

Rubato

Guest
speed dawg said:
How about you sack up and pay up?

Most police officers and state troopers won't even attempt to pull you over unless you are going 10 mph over the posted limit. This is from a state trooper's mouth. The reason is so there is no confusion about calibration and all that other garbage.

You were speeding, you got caught, so pay up, pal. Or go spend all your money hiring a top notch lawyer.

If you're on the verge of losing your license for 6 months, it sounds like you're just a dumbass who needs to learn a lesson about driving.
@Speed Dawg - I really hate "cop" attitude. I really do. That was one of my biggest motivating reasons for me to become an attorney. And I'm glad I didn't now, because if I had to put with that bullsh1t every day, I'd want to hang myself. And cops aren't the only people who have this attitude - politicians, lawyers, state officials, and random joes on the street have it too.

As a political scientist, I am categorically morally opposed to what government officials call "preventative justice", which is not really justice at all. It's punishing people, not because they actually did something to impinge upon the rights, liberty, and/or agency of another person, but because they COULD have. That is such a bogus philosophy that if taken to its logical conclusion, could screw up the world in a Minority Report sort of way that you don't really want to imagine. If you can't drive in a such a way as to keep yourself from damaging other people's property and injuring them, then you shouldn't be driving. If you do those things, I'm totally fine with the state exercising its power to limit your liberty.

But I didn't. And I won't entertain any arguments about "could haves" and "what ifs" and nonsense like that because reality isn't based upon possibilities, it's based upon actuality. And I (and I think any other reasonable person out there would be too) am against punishment exercised according to a possibility. Are you against preemptive war? Why? Are you against the state levying corrective action against a potential criminal? Why?

All this being said, I'm not going to "sack up" (whatever the f#ck that means) and let the state revoke my license without making them work for the power they hold, particularly when I don't believe I actually did anything wrong besides violate a provision some politician invented (that I disagree with) before a lot of us (and myself) were born and had the agency to consent to his or her exercise of power and/or the provision enacted.

Before you start running your mouth about how poor of a driver I am, why don't you look at my flawless accident record. Speed violations don't do anything except raise revenue for the state and waste an innocent person's time. Accident violations, on the other hand, are actually serious issues that require corrective action.

-end rant.


@everyone else.

I contacted a lawyer this morning and got some of the best free legal advice I've ever received. He told me my Doppler effect defense was awesome, but that I would need an expert witness in order to use it. I'll have to find a physics grad student I can pay to show up and court and validate my figures if it gets that far. It might not.

He told me to plead not guilty at my arraignment. Then file 3 motions, the motion for discovery I cited earlier in the thread, a motion for a pretrial, and a motion to waive my right to a speedy trial. All of the data I get from discovery will give me all the information I need to know about whether the officer was legally and technically qualified to use the radar and whether the radar was in appropriate technological shape to be used. It will also give me the information I need to make specific equations about the Doppler effect.

The motion for pretrial will give me an opportunity to speak with the prosecuting attorney and try to convince him to move the charge down 3 miles per hour so that I'm not at risk of losing my license or plea bargain so that I'm still charged with a 4th degree misdemeanor, but I don't lose my license.

The motion to waive my right to speedy trial will extend the date for my trial, which will do 2 things. First, if I keep seeking continuances (things that push the date of the trial back), it will make it less likely that the police officer will show up, and if he doesn't, I can motion for dismissal (aka, I win). The county the case is in has 2 judges who are notoriously known as hanging judges and the people are sick of it. One of them is up for reelection this year and is poised to lose by large margins in all polls. If I can delay the case until January, I will have a 50/50 chance at getting this new guy, who has a much more lenient reputation.

That's all for now. I will update this thread as I get more information. If I'm successful, it will be a good resource for people who need to fight moving violations.
 

speed dawg

Master Don Juan
Joined
Jun 9, 2006
Messages
4,766
Reaction score
1,235
Location
The Dirty South
Rubato said:
It's punishing people, not because they actually did something to impinge upon the rights, liberty, and/or agency of another person, but because they COULD have.
There was no could have about it. You were speeding and recklessly driving according to our law. Like I said, pay your fine or spend the law fees.

If you're just trying to beat the reckless driving charge, maybe you can. Typically if you get your speedometer checked within 24 hours of the ticket, the judge will give you some leniency.

My opinion is, however, that you probably were going over the reckless driving limit and just want to get out of punishment. Your record indicates you are a reckless driver if you're facing your 4th misdemeanor.

So, in closing, stop crying.
 

azanon

Master Don Juan
Joined
Aug 8, 2006
Messages
2,292
Reaction score
41
IMO, the issue is not whether you're going to find a lenient judge with that approach, rather one that's going to be willing to set a precedent in his court room that radar guns readings are discredited within a 6.25% margin of error. On this point, let me wish you good luck because you will most certainly need it. You think they are going to give up a major source of revenue because some punk drags a physics student in on his case? (no offense intended)

Dude, just show up and say you didn't do it. On second thought, don't get a lawyer. An innocent person wouldn't show up with a lawyer in traffic court.

......................

(response) They have you clocked or the car that was right next to you speeding? Surely the Cop inadvertently pulled you over instead. He must have gotten you two confused. ;-)

Sorry I had to respond that way. There's some dumb rule here that you can't post more than 10/day. My average is about 1/day but I had a bit of free time today.
 
Last edited:
R

Rubato

Guest
speed dawg said:
Your record indicates you are a reckless driver if you're facing your 4th misdemeanor.
Please read what I type if you are going to comment on it. This is not my 4th misdemeanor. It would be my 1st. It's a 4th degree misdemeanor.

I am trying to get out of ORC 4151.21D1 specifically, which is not a reckless driving charge, but a speeding charge. The county of offense happens to be the only county in Ohio that suspends a license under this charge. This is an interesting point, because the ORC states that any deviations of lesser ordinances cannot vary substantially from the ORC. I would say this provision does, becuase the ORC doesn't discuss license suspension until the 3rd violation of 4151.21D1 in 1 year or the accumulation of 12 points.

@Azanon

Just show up and say I didn't do it? I don't see that working very well. They already have a radar reading that clocked me at a given speed. This is a pretty clear cut thing. I agree to your point of them not going to be willing to give up a major source of revenue, but 6.25% represents less than 3 miles per hour. That's not that much. I don't think the county would have a problem raising revenue because they weren't able to give tickets to people exceeding the speed limit by 3 miles per hour!

And why would an innocent person show up in court with a lawyer? Because they're smart enough to realize that justice is not always served in our courts and they're trying to protect themselves.
 
R

Rubato

Guest
This is what a motion for discovery looks like

I finished writing up my first of 3 motions today. For your consideration and should you ever need one, this is what a motion for discovery looks like. It's a very standard document and you should be able to use it in whatever jurisdiction you are in with slight modifications. When in doubt, visit the court and they should legally have to provide you with sample filings of whatever it is you want to file:

IN THE MUNICIPLE COURT OF (Whatever county/jurisdiction you are in)
(City), (State)

(Insert Plaintiff name)
Plaintiff,

vs.

(Insert Defendant name)
Defendant

Case number: (Insert case number)

MOTION FOR DISCOVERY

NOW COMES the Defendant, (insert defendant name) pro se, and for his Motion for Discovery, hereby states as follows:

1. That on 10/31/2001 Defendant was served with a complaint at law and summons.

2. That (Insert name of defendant) is the named defendant herein.

3. That THE OFFICER is the (insert state name) State Highway Patrol Officer who issued the complaint to which this motion applies.

4. That in order to properly answer said allegations to the Complaint at Law, Defendant is in need of obtaining discovery in this matter, including, but not limited to the following items:
A) FCC Public Safety Radio Services (or Radar) License;
B) The following Radar documents:
1. Make, model, serial number, options, age;
2. Manufacturer certificate of calibration;
3. Operator manual and specifications;
4. All calibration log sheets produced between the dates 10/31/2010 and 10/31/2011 inclusive (date, due, lab);
5. All maintenance and/or repair history documents of the radar device;
6. The speedometer deviation records for the vehicle the officer was driving when he issued the complaint to which this motion applies.​
C) The following Tuning Fork documents:
1. Specifications (band, speed, resonance, resonance tolerance);
2. Calibration log sheets produced between the dates 10/31/2010 and 10/31/2011 inclusive (date, due, lab).​
D) The following officer training/qualification documents:
1. Certificate of competency;
2. Training material;
3. Officer training records including dates, location, and instructor name and address;
4. Date that the officer first used the radar device;
5. Information relating to the educational background of the officer, particularly education designed to impart the requisite skill necessary to properly make detailed measurements based solely upon visual observations.​
E) All policies pertaining to Radar use.
F) All officer notes, police reports, memorandum, flash messages, supplemental reports, incident reports, and all documents regarding the case to which this motion applies.
G) A detailed map of the enforcement jurisdiction of the officer.
H) The citation issuance policies presiding over the officer.
I) Demographics of the people stopped and cited by the officer during the past twelve months, including, but not limited to, race, ethnicity, age, gender, and type of car being driven by the person stopped.
J) All other relevant evidence regarding the officer's ability to make sound judgments, including non prescription and prescription drug use (regardless of whether under the care of a qualified physician) such as:
1. Stimulant/Attention Deficit Hyperactivity Disorder/Narcolepsy/Sleep Shift Work Disorder medication such as Adderall, Ritalin, or Provigil;
2. Allergy medication such as Benadryl, Atarax, or Zyrtec
3. Cough/cold medications such as Dextromethorphan or NyQuil;
4. Diarrhea medications such as Loperamide;
5. Narcotic painkiller medications such as Vicodin, Percocet, Dilaudid, or Morphine;
6. Hypnotic medications (sleeping pills) such as Ambien or Lunesta;
7. Antidepressant medications such as Prosac, Lexapro, Trazadone, or Remeron;
8. Anxiolytic medications (anti-anxiety) such as Xanax, Ativan, or Klonopin;
9. Muscle relaxants such as Soma or Flexeril;
10. Anti-emetic medication (anti-nausea) such as Phenergan or Zofran;
11. Alcohol;
12. Any schedule I drug;
13. Any herbal/alternative medicine products such as Valerian root or passion flower;
14. Any other potentially mind altering/impairing product.​
K) Any medical diagnosis's of the officer that would influence his ability to exercise reasonable judgment including but not limited to any sleep, personality, anxiety, neurological, or behavioral disorders, depression, or chronic pain.
L) L) Any extenuating circumstances affecting the officer that may have impaired his ability to exercise reasonable judgment including but not limited to any familial, job, medical, related problem or any other problem/circumstance.
M) Any accusations of misconduct of the officer.
N) All other relevant evidence regarding the summons and complaint.

5. That the discovery requested is crucial to the defendant's defense in this matter.

WHEREFORE, Defendant, (insert name of defendant) respectfully requests this Honorable Court to grant Defendant's request for Discovery, including the reports from the (insert state name, if applicable) STATE HIGHWAY PATROL.

Respectfully submitted,



By:___________________________ (your signature goes here)


(insert name of defendant), pro se
(Insert address and telephone number of defendant)




That's it guys. I'll be writing the motion to set for pretrial and waiver of a speedy trial later this week. I'll also write about any objections I face with discovery, how to deal with them, and if necessary, how to depose and cross examine the police officer if the clerk of courts and other ancillary staff are not cooperative with my discovery motion. This could all be a very valuable resource for someone.
 

Vice

Master Don Juan
Joined
Oct 23, 2007
Messages
2,006
Reaction score
186
Here's the lesson guys:

They key is PREVENTION, so you can focus your time and energy slamming hot babes instead of doing all this sh*t.
 

PrettyBoyAJ

Master Don Juan
Joined
Dec 19, 2010
Messages
2,586
Reaction score
339
Age
34
Location
Atlanta
I got a speeding ticket going 109 in a 55. Technically points wise they can't suspend my license but the judge might have something to say about that. My court date is December 7. The police officer told me I could just pay the fine and don't worry about court but the lady in the office was talking about 1914$. So I'm going to court to talk to the judge and try to get it reduced to 900 or something and hopefully he won't suspend my license. Wish me luck guys and it was just a speeding ticket. No reckless driving or nothing. I was just trying to get home in a timely manner before I got sleepy.
 

GrekTrick

New Member
Joined
Nov 2, 2011
Messages
3
Reaction score
0
You can appeal to that and winning is very easy in most of this kind of cases.
 

spider_007

Master Don Juan
Joined
Mar 23, 2005
Messages
3,073
Reaction score
16
Location
ontario
Not sure how it works across the border, but here in Canada i just give my trafic lawyer $400 and he calls the prosecutor and reduces the charge down to a $60 fine and no points....did a number of them like that.
 

Peace and Quiet

If you currently have too many women chasing you, calling you, harassing you, knocking on your door at 2 o'clock in the morning... then I have the simple solution for you.

Just read my free ebook 22 Rules for Massive Success With Women and do the opposite of what I recommend.

This will quickly drive all women away from you.

And you will be able to relax and to live your life in peace and quiet.

Top