Looking for some advice about tonight

I met the HB from my dance team today to give her a dance lesson. I have been getting IOI's from her... Tuesday at practice she runs up to me and gives me a huge hug, sent me a facebook message after practice asking me if I would give her personal lessons, responds to kino, squeezes the hand when i squeeze hers, ect ect.

So I'm giving her the dance lesson and I'm probably being too ****y and too much of a jerk, but I do give her occasional validation. I tell her when she does a good job, but I am also really negging on her a lot. She's a very very pretty girl, 18, freshman, single. I told her to bring her laptop so I could show her videos from a website I belong to that demonstrates the different patterns, and while she'd be practicing, I would just say her name and motion with my fingers for her to come over with my back turned. I'd lead her down with my hand on her shoulder and leave it around her while we watched the video. no problems from her.

We were working on waltz, which can be sexy (and was sexy the way I was doing it... gotta maintain that thigh body contact!), but I wanted something sexier. So we switched to salsa.

I had already shown her some of this but threw her in to a really advanced me that ends with me running my hands down her head through her hair across her body and ending on her waist. I just hold her there, spin her behind me making sure to keep my left hand along her abdomen the whole time to keep track of her, catch her with my right hand and whip her around. It's a very sexy move (we agreed on this).

She said she didn't ask her other friend for lessons because he said he viewed her as a friend like a sister and nothing else, so I assumed that to be an IOI and that she had not friendzoned me. Why the hell would she? We have been litterally playfully hitting eachother the whole time.

Somewhere in the middle of this I did a cold reading game with her... I asked her to guess a number between 1-4. It was not 3. Had her guess a number between 1-10. Not 7. But then she told me I was always 1 higher than her, which gave me a great opportunity to remind her that I was always 1 step ahead of her and on top her!

So I have to leave, and I have been making it a point to physically lead this girl. I push against her shoulder whatever direction I want her to go, so I lead her out. As we're walking, I ask her what I'm gonna get in exchange for these dance lessons, and this is where I think I screwed up!

I should have just told her I wanted a kiss, but I didn't. She said she had already given me her number, and I told her that didn't count because I had it before the lesson. I told her to come up with something better. We're walking through campus and she turns to leave for her dorm, and again, I use my hand on her shoulder to lead her back around and tell her "No, we're not at my class yet". So she keeps following me and we're just talking about bullsh$t now.

I wasn't running routines on this girl because I'm trying to become more of a natural, and I'm really not sure how it's going. But she played in to the idea that I'm this big sexy guy who's in charge and what not. Whatever bullsh$t I said, she went along with.

When we got to my class I gave her a hug and she's like a foot shorter than me. I was going to kiss her, but I would have had to have bent down weird. So when she moved to leave, I grabbed her and turned her around and put my hand on her head and moved in for a kiss, and it's not like she resisted hard, but I do think she pulled back a little. So I maintained eye contact for a few seconds longer than was comfortable and literally pushed her away... to hard I think, because it knocked her sunglasses off!!! And she said something about that I can't remember, and I deflected it.

So, 1st question, should I have just gone for it and kissed her?

2nd question. How could I have made the interaction better after the lesson and gotten my kiss.

3rd. I'll see her tonight at the swing lesson and I don't feel like I'm done.

What I think I'm going to do is this: They have a break in between the 2 hour lesson and I'll dance with her once and ignore her the rest of the first hour. Then, during the break I'll take her next door where there is a piano and tell her I have to show her something... a new song. And play her a song I wrote that really isn't new, but she won't know. Tell her to close her eyes. And kiss her.

Yes? No? What would you do?

Brother you really REALLY need to stop approaching kissing a girl like some sort of engineering problem! You are coming up with all kinds of schemes/scenarios on how to kiss her. Normally when you do this is when YOU FAIL. You are putting too much pressure on yourself and trying to come up with a script for something THAT HAPPENS NATURALLY! Kissing is something that happens naturally. If she sees it coming, if it feels scripted it will all feel creepy to her.

Stop thinking about "how to kiss her" and instead keep doing what you're doing. Keep dancing with her which is natural kino, keep neggin her, keep building attraction. You are in a great situation you are touching her body all the time due to the dancing. I would ask her out one on one on a non-dance lesson date.

f283000 said:

Brother you really REALLY need to stop approaching kissing a girl like some sort of engineering problem! You are coming up with all kinds of schemes/scenarios on how to kiss her. Normally when you do this is when YOU FAIL. You are putting too much pressure on yourself and trying to come up with a script for something THAT HAPPENS NATURALLY! Kissing is something that happens naturally. If she sees it coming, if it feels scripted it will all feel creepy to her.

Stop thinking about "how to kiss her" and instead keep doing what you're doing. Keep dancing with her which is natural kino, keep neggin her, keep building attraction. You are in a great situation you are touching her body all the time due to the dancing. I would ask her out one on one on a non-dance lesson date.

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I am putting too much emphasis on that. Thank you for bringing me back to reality. If you were to visualize sexual escalation as a staircase, I look at kissing as a stair I'm attempting to reach.

I've gotten very good at number closing a girl. It's not something that I even worry about anymore. Sexual touch, like what I described above, kino, whatever you call it is also something that is becoming natural. I'd like to move up the next leg of the staircase to kissing.

So, point taken, but it also seems to me that while it shoudn't be the focus of my attention, it's something that still needs to be addressed and dealt with. Men are supposed to lead, and if I'm not thinking about kissing the girl and creating an enviornment of attraction for that to happen (naturally, perhaps) and don't take the lead with the kiss, it's just not going to happen. It sounds like there is a certain balance there (tell me if I'm wrong though). Like, looking back retrospectively, I can say with a lot of confidence that it would have been much more natural to kiss the HB the first time I seriously thought about it when we were sitting with my arm around her next to her laptop. And I should have gone for it there, and actually gone for it with conviction, and not some half a$sed attempt at trying to feel out whether or not she's interested.

So F283000 (that's a jet plane, right?), do you agree with my conclusions here?

And second, I'm not really sure what the best approach to this whole thing is. When I read Mystery and Style's material, they wait for 3 IOI's and ask the girl if she wants to kiss them. Yes and maybe = yes, no = buying temp is not there.

Other people advocate just f$cking kissing the girl. Any opinion there?

I don't know why people would pretend like there is some magical equation involving IOI's to kiss someone. You know how many people have successfully kissed / made out a girl without over analyzing and making some sort of forumula? WAYYYY more than people who tried using a formula / think about it, I'm sure.

Why would you ask her? Have you ever kissed a girl before?

You hang out w/ them, have a good time. When you "feel it" you kiss them, it's that simple. I'm not talking about "waiting for the right time" or the "perfect" moment.

Ex. Mine and my EX's first date was her coming w/ me and a few friends to our capitol to a protest. It was probably a few hours or so of walking around the capitol at night when my buddies ducked into this little cubby to light a cigertte or something. We were standing there, I just felt that urge in the pit of my stomach(like now is the time!), so I kissed her. Boom, we make out. That easy.

joverby said:

I don't know why people would pretend like there is some magical equation involving IOI's to kiss someone. You know how many people have successfully kissed / made out a girl without over analyzing and making some sort of forumula? WAYYYY more than people who tried using a formula / think about it, I'm sure.

Why would you ask her? Have you ever kissed a girl before?

You hang out w/ them, have a good time. When you "feel it" you kiss them, it's that simple. I'm not talking about "waiting for the right time" or the "perfect" moment.

Ex. Mine and my EX's first date was her coming w/ me and a few friends to our capitol to a protest. It was probably a few hours or so of walking around the capitol at night when my buddies ducked into this little cubby to light a cigertte or something. We were standing there, I just felt that urge in the pit of my stomach(like now is the time!), so I kissed her. Boom, we make out. That easy.

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I'm just regurgitating what other "gurus" have said. I've never asked a girl to kiss me before. I don't know how many girls I've kissed, but it's a pretty decent number.

Take home message then - if what I'm doing is working, I shouldn't f$ck with it.

Always go for the cheek kiss when you part ways.

You'll know by the way she responds whether she wants to proceed. The cheek kiss needs to become as natural as shaking a man's hand. The key is to be confident as you do it, which might take some practice.

I've only had 3 girlfriends in the past year but have probably kissed 100 women on the cheek in that time. Many times they turn their head so the cheek kiss became a lip kiss.

Like F283000 said, I would stop going for the kiss so aggressively. Instead create an atmosphere where at the right time and the right place, she is ready.

How to tell she is ready:
When you are fairly close together and she keeps on looking between your eyes and your mouth, back and forth. When she does that she is 100% ready for a kiss. Bank on it.

Never ask her for a kiss, ever. Nor should you tell her you'd "like to kiss her". That kills the mood for her. Believe me, those guys she drools over in her "romance" novels (women's porn) never talk about a kiss. They just do it.

Look for her eyes looking at the mouth. That's your green light.

Be very careful about negs. They are not to be used on insecure girls at all, except when they really need to be put in their place. Negs are only for disarming a woman who has an attitude. They have the opposite of the desired affect on insecure girls.

****y/funny should be used sparingly. It is not the main course, rather it is the seasoning, a tool for you to use in a controlled fashion. Many guys take it way too far and think that every response has to be CF.

I would say to pace yourself a little better. Girls need the stage to be set by the man. It's all about positioning yourself for the strike (the kiss).

Look for the eyes oscillating between your eyes and your mouth. When you see that, it's a go.

Hope that helps.

What your doing sounds very scripted and structured, and INTENSE as F****CK. I would work on relaxing, breathing and work on showing your dominance and sexuality in much more subtle ways. The whole description of what happened made me cringe because of the over thinking of it all and the awkwardness that must ensue. Be patient, don't rush things, be more chill and relaxed, just let things happen naturally and don't be afraid to make a move....but also don't be afraid to just be yourself & let things progress naturally (no thought, just instinct). The girl is not a math problem to be solved....

@Atom Smasher, you explained how to tell if she's ready for the kiss, but did not say anything about creating the atmosphere. Could you elaborate on that?

@yuppaz As I think about everything that happened, I'm really surprised it wasn't more awkward. This was a good lesson for me showing that while you can manipulate social interactions to a point, you can't script them. And I can't approach gaming a girl like one of my biochem mechanisms.

I'm really not sure what kind of impression I left on her. It was a strong one, whatever it was. I didn't see her tonight at dance practice, but there are a billion reasons that could have been. I'm supposed to work with her again tomorrow (or, today) so I guess I'll have a better idea of that when I wake up. You all can form whatever idea you want to about whether or not I totally bombed out, but I don't think I did. Even though I acted halfway retarded, I feel like I made it all appear congruent. Even when I didn't kiss her at the end, the way I pushed her away and just held her eye contact in retrospect almost makes me think that I was looking at her with lust and trying to make a decision about whether or not I would select her... and I didn't. Even though that's not really what was happening in my gray matter... I really do think I did a good job of conveying that, especially when I pushed her away and laughed. For some girls, that level of power/dominance is extremely attractive, and for others its very scary and creepy. For yet others, it's both. So I guess I'll find out. I haven't gotten any messages from her telling me to leave her alone and none of our mutual friends said anything to me, so I'm going to proceed from the assumption that the game is still on. That being said, I would like to emphasize again that all of this was retarded and could have been much simpler.

I feel like I've made some big steps with this stuff - earlier in my life, I would have had a really hard time with what happened this morning. And today, I called up my buddy and laughed about it all. I feel like I'm disassociating from "the game" and not taking things personally anymore, which is really positive for me.

Tomorrow is going to be crazy... lunch date, dance lesson, dinner date, then going out to the salsa clubs.

So you chickend out?

joverby said:

So you chickend out?

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Yea. I'll admit it. I should have just gone for it.

So to all the guys out there who read this remember something very important: It feels markedly worse to chicken out than it does to get shot down.

This will not happen again.