Dating advice from a woman that actually works!

It's pretty well accepted here that most women don't give very good advice on how to pickup women. But this "wingwoman" actually had some decent advice:

http://articles.cnn.com/2011-07-14/...ls_1_women-nice-guys-secrets-men?_s=PM:LIVING

"You have to think about picking up girls the exact same way you think about picking up a box. You just do it."

I have been studying this "game" stuff for a few years now and that's about as good a summary of what it all boils down to as I've ever read.

To be fair of course, this woman has seen it from a guy's perspective and she is more aware of how the sausage is actually made compared to the average broad who only sees the finished product.

She raises more good points than most, but she's clearly in the dark about attraction triggers.

She says: "Women DO NOT like bad boys. Not sure who started this rumor, but they must be shot immediately. Women do not sit around with their girlfriends and say "Oh, Marni, I can't wait to meet a lazy, unreliable jerk who treats me poorly and feeds on my insecurities."

She seems to have no understanding that women think they don't like bad boys, but in fact they sexually respond to bad boys. That fact is a little too painful and humiliatng for a modern woman to face.

She also says, "Women want to be approached, as long as it's by the right person."

LOL, the "right" person. Well, that's the crux of the problem, is't it? How is a man supposed to know he's "the right person" and therefore has a green light? If we turned the tables and made it so women are the ones who risk rejection, then we would see how easy it would be for me to ease her mind by telling her that men are fine with being approached as long as it's the right person.

Other than those female blind spots, the advice is pretty solid.

Atom Smasher said:

She raises more good points than most, but she's clearly in the dark about attraction triggers.

She says: "Women DO NOT like bad boys. Not sure who started this rumor, but they must be shot immediately. Women do not sit around with their girlfriends and say "Oh, Marni, I can't wait to meet a lazy, unreliable jerk who treats me poorly and feeds on my insecurities."

She seems to have no understanding that women think they don't like bad boys, but in fact they sexually respond to bad boys. That fact is a little too painful and humiliatng for a modern woman to face.

She also says, "Women want to be approached, as long as it's by the right person."

LOL, the "right" person. Well, that's the crux of the problem, is't it? How is a man supposed to know he's "the right person" and therefore has a green light? If we turned the tables and made it so women are the ones who risk rejection, then we would see how easy it would be for me to ease her mind by telling her that men are fine with being approached as long as it's the right person.

Other than those female blind spots, the advice is pretty solid.

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I agree all she got right is that the man has to act and get over his mental hesistencies, but she didn't even show much empathy for how much of a burden that can be for many guys and painted woman as angels. Just as her comments about women not liking "bad boys" doesn't jive with observed reality of female behavior, her comments that personality matters and looks don't matter much is also off. When she said women are interested in character and not appearance, that is even more laughable than saying women don't respond sexually to bad boys. The last thing women are attracted to and care about is character. Women wouldn't know character from a hole in the ground. Women are all about appareances and superficialities. Personality is appearance in the superficial reality they operate in.

She, basically just like every other woman does, painted women as admirable saints. Women don't like bad boys and don't care about looks and care about character!? LOL if that were true average looking, good guys would be getting girls on the time and good looking bad boys would be the ones getting rejected. Do they really?

My view is women do care a lot about a guys' appearance, don't care or know about character, and are attracted to good looking bad boys. Women just rationlize that their bad boys have good character and the not so good looking good guys lack character. See it's all in how you define personality, character and what is good and bad guy behavior .

Lexington said:

"You have to think about picking up girls the exact same way you think about picking up a box. You just do it."

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I read that article last week and thought about posting it. I can't say I agreed with everything she said, but she did appear to have better insight into the subject than most women.

The quote about picking up the box is good. Because once you start going into more depth then you start introducing all these half truths or things that are only true for some people or things that are only true in certain situations, and it all gets to be a complicated mess.


Unlike Atom Smasher, I do agree with what she says here:
"Women DO NOT like bad boys. Not sure who started this rumor, but they must be shot immediately. Women do not sit around
with their girlfriends and say "Oh, Marni, I can't wait to meet a lazy, unreliable jerk who treats me poorly and feeds on my insecurities." Women like nice guys, not wimps, pushovers or pleasers; nice guys with a backbone and strong sense of self."

This is not to say women will not respond to a bad boy, but that is just one type she might respond to. I tend to think women go through a phase where they like bad boys (usually when they're very young - high school or shortly thereafter). I don't they think want a lazy, unemployed guy who doesn't treat her right, and isn't socially calibrated. She might put up with it for awhile, but if the guy treats her like bad, she WILL get rid of him eventually.
Unless she's a head case.

The problem is there is no definition of "bad boy". Every time I ask for a definition of what a bad boy is, all I get is a list of admirable (good) qualities.
I don't see how a bunch of good qualities = "bad". It makes no sense to me.

To me, a bad boy would be a lazy, unemployed, probably alcoholic, guy who is unable to adapt to society in a productive way, and doesn't know how to socialize properly/get along with people. I don't see what's so sexy about that.

I have never had to act that way in order to attract females. So I think this whole "bad boy" thing is more a marketing gimmick than anything else. A "type" that is easy for gurus to teach to guys who are the least common denominator (who have nothing else going for them).

Atom Smasher said:

She says: "Women DO NOT like bad boys. Not sure who started this rumor, but they must be shot immediately. Women do not sit around with their girlfriends and say "Oh, Marni, I can't wait to meet a lazy, unreliable jerk who treats me poorly and feeds on my insecurities."

She seems to have no understanding that women think they don't like bad boys, but in fact they sexually respond to bad boys. That fact is a little too painful and humiliatng for a modern woman to face.

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As Zekko pointed out, you omitted the next sentence and that took what she said a little out of context:

"Women like nice guys, not wimps, pushovers or pleasers; nice guys with a backbone and strong sense of self."

Like Zekko alluded to, a lot of the arguments on this forum and arguments about romantic relationships in general happen because there are no clear definitions of various terms.

The main "bad boy" traits that we encourage on these forums are having a backbone and a strong sense of self. Sure a lot of douchebags have these traits as well and those can be attractive to women, but it is not the abuse and unreliability that attracts these women but rather the positive qualities.

A douchebag with these positive traits is still generally more attractive than a supplicating, spineless "nice guy" who communicates through his actions that he is of lower value than the girl. If the guy himself believes himself to be of lower value than the girl, why wouldn't she feel the same way?

Very good points about the bad boy and I agree most women aren't attracted to the abusive, unemployed definition of bad boy. And also that it is more of a younger girl thing. When one thinks about what is the definition of a bad boy that causes women to sexually respond, I'd define it this way. The opposite of what a nice guy would be inclined to do (as men understand based on what mainstream society and women have told it). It'd be hard to explain what I mean but I'll give examples.

-A nice guy doesn't make a move on the girl on date because he doesn't want to ruin a possibility of a budding relationship by rushing into sex. Doesn't want to "use" a woman he is not interested in for more than sex

-Women test guys and see if they respond in a PC/nice/emotional supportive way or not.

-Being upfront and honest about your feelings and intentions with the girl.

-I couldn't think of another specific example but think of all the nice "AFC" things guys do and even post about on here and the girl stop responding sexually to him.

So being anything short of guy acting with only his interest in mind and being sexual seems to put you in the nice guy zone.

I'm not explaining my point very well. I don't buy into the bad boy thing either as that woman defined it (that is my point that it is al lin the definition). But I've had to keep things very superficial with women, hint at being a player and act not that interested in females to get them to act sexual.

All I can say is how I would define nice and how the average guy would also does not seem to trigger a sexual response as often and as well as not doing those things.

The problem is there is no definition of "bad boy". Every time I ask for a definition of what a bad boy is, all I get is a list of admirable (good) qualities.
I don't see how a bunch of good qualities = "bad". It makes no sense to me.

To me, a bad boy would be a lazy, unemployed, probably alcoholic, guy who is unable to adapt to society in a productive way, and doesn't know how to socialize properly/get along with people. I don't see what's so sexy about that.

I have never had to act that way in order to attract females. So I think this whole "bad boy" thing is more a marketing gimmick than anything else. A "type" that is easy for gurus to teach to guys who are the least common denominator (who have nothing else going for them).

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"Bad boy" can certainly be a nebulous term, but if I had to think of an archetypical bad boy I'd think of someone like James Dean, Maverick from Top Gun or a lot of rock stars. These guys aren't a$$holes, but they do bring about an air of excitement and unpredictability which makes them attractive in the eyes of women. These archetypes can be quite nice and even tender at times, but they typically project a high sense of self-worth and would never be accused of being pvssies.

In the context of pickup/game/whatever, the term "bad" generally means "naughty" as opposed to evil or immoral. I think a lot of people get hung up on that word and they assume that bad boy refers to that guy we all know who is a terrible human being but somehow very good with the ladies. While that guy may possess negative traits such as being abusive and whatnot, it is the positive bad boy traits that tingles women's 'ginas.

You guys arent getting my point. They KNOW a bad boy is bad for them. They KNOW that he will cause her heartache. But the fact remains, they have an UNCONTROLLABLE physiological response to the bad boy. This is not a choice; it is ingrained in them. The girl who proclaims her love of a nice guy, even one with backbone will melt inside when in the presence of a masculine bad boy. Thats why she keeps on going to those movies and reading those books.

Almost always, hyper-masculinity is present in the bad boy. Similar to how we can be attracted to a beautiful woman who is bad for us.

Atom Smasher said:

You guys arent getting my point. They KNOW a bad boy is bad for them. They KNOW that he will cause her heartache. But the fact remains, they have an UNCONTROLLABLE physiological response to the bad boy. This is not a choice; it is ingrained in them. The girl who proclaims her love of a nice guy, even one with backbone will melt inside when in the presence of a masculine bad boy. Thats why she keeps on going to those movies and reading those books.

Almost always, hyper-masculinity is present in the bad boy. Similar to how we can be attracted to a beautiful woman who is bad for us.

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I thought I was getting your point and agreeing with you earlier, but not sure that most women are attracted to a bad boy as defined as one that is bad for them and will cause them heartbreak. I agree they have uncontrollable sexual attraction to a guy who is not devoted to them or validating them, but I don't think they even cognizantly view them as a bad boy. I still think it is a matter of different definitions and perceptions of what a bad boy is and isn't.

Some girls maybe with personality disorders, drama queen or ones that have been with the guy for some time may know the abusive guys is bad for them and can't help but be attracted to him, but in the earliest stages and with most girls I don't think they are attracted to that.

Better than the phrase bad boy is player. Women are attracting to a guy who they suspect fvcks lots of women. Women don't ever admit it and don't want it out in the open. But the main point is I don't think they experioence any heartbreak or know that they are attracting to guys who aren't "nice".

"Women DO NOT like bad boys. Not sure who started this rumor, but they must be shot immediately."

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Well that's one way to silence them, I guess, but that's pretty much a confession of guilt.

I'd say most of what she wrote was crap. They dig bad boys, they dig good looks, and they will overlook almost anything if you make their gina tingle.
KC

Obviously a lot of women are into bad boys. The problem is a large segment of the pickup community has twisted this into "ALL women want bad boys". Which, in my life experience, is simply BS.

The definitions of "nice guy" and "bad boy" on pickup sites are questionable as well:
"Nice Guy: A weak, needy, desperate, supplicating, sissified wimp with no options with the opposite sex."
Notice how there is nothing "nice" in that definition at all?

"Bad Boy: A strong, confident, masculine male who does what he wants and speaks his opinion, is sexually in demand, and does not get emotionally attached to women too easily or too early".
Notice how there is nothing "bad" in that definition?
In fact, you could probably reverse the definitions and be more accurate.

Lexington said:

"Bad boy" can certainly be a nebulous term, but if I had to think of an archetypical bad boy I'd think of someone like James Dean

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When I think of the idealized bad boy, Dean is who I think of, specifically in Rebel Without a Cause. Notice right away that this is a teenage drama.

In the movie, Dean is harassed by a gang of teenagers whose behavior is considerably worse than his own. You might say they are "badder boys" than he is. Yet, you don't hear girls swooning about those guys who were attacking him in the movie. I'd say Dean's appeal had a lot more to do with his celebrity, looks, and charisma than with being "bad".

I consider myself a nice guy with a backbone. Nice in the way that I was raised to treat people with a certain level of respect. Yet I was raised that men should be masculine also. I have never had to mistreat a woman to attract her.

Stagger Lee said:

I agree they have uncontrollable sexual attraction to a guy who is not devoted to them or validating them

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I liked you first post, Stagger Lee, I agree with most of what you said there.

I do not give a rat's @ss about 99.999999% of the females on the planet. If this indifference or not giving them validation was the key to attracting them, most of the women in the world would be clawing over themselves to get at me.

Yet, the one woman I actually DO care about, my girlfriend of eight years, she is the one who is most attracted to me and appreciates me the most.
If women only want guys who abuse them, or don't validate them, how does that work out?

Stagger Lee said:

Better than the phrase bad boy is player. Women are attracting to a guy who they suspect fvcks lots of women

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It would be more true to say that they want a guy that a lot of other women want. They want a guy that will make their friends jealous of them. Having a reputation as a player can actually put some women off. That's why they tend to not recommend that you broadcast about all the plates you are spinning.

Dear Lexington,
No offense Old Chap,but this Ladies take on the matter is quite absurd....more like the ideas that Women would like to believe than the truth....she has points,the personality thing can swing a decision,and yeah,in the long term it is THE all important aspect...but in the short term it is looks,status(Mazooma) and HEIGHT....sure work out in the Gym,but that is more for the benefit of YOUR confidence levels,than her attraction....if you aint rich,you have an average looks, and most importantly you have Ducks diseaze(You are a short arvse) then dance like Jophil did!!!or even better play a cool musical instrument,remember you make up your mind about taking the plunge in 3.5 Seconds,she takes 2.5 seconds.So maybe check her irises out after 5 or so seconds,then proceed with confidence.

Scaramouche said:

this Ladies take on the matter is quite absurd....more like the ideas that Women would like to believe than the truth....she has points,the personality thing can swing a decision,and yeah,in the long term it is THE all important aspect...but in the short term it is looks,status

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Do you realize you've just said the EXACT same thing this girl said?
I quote from the article:
"Obviously, in the first five seconds, she judges a man based on his looks. But after that, something interesting happens: A man's face shifts according to how he makes a woman feel."

Isn't this the exact same thing that is taught here?
You said, just like she did, that personality is the ultimate aspect.

Espi said:

I rarely trust a woman's advice about attracting women; it's kind of like asking a fish how to fish.

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You guys are just blindly responding to the fact that she is a woman (basically spouting the pickup company line that anything she says should be dismissed just because she is a woman. Just like the community brainwashes you to do). Why don't you discuss what points you agree or disagree with instead?

The prey does not teach the hunter how better to catch it.

Why women give bad dating advice.

The problem is most guys simply parrot the words women have told them over the years when they asked them "What do women want in a guy?" and then think it works since they got it straight from the horse's mouth. Unfortunately, too many guys, especially recently, have bought the same line women have been repeating for ages thinking it's a way to put themselves at an advantage when all it does is disqualify not only them, but the poor suckers who hear 'chick advice' from another guy, repeat it and the cycle continues.

The 'chick advice' phenomenon is a socio-evolutionary fail-safe mechanism meant to filter women's selection process of less desirable men from more desirable (competition worthy) men. Think about this - women almost uniquely own "relationship advice" in the media. There are a few notable feminized male exceptions (i.e. the Dr. Phils), but the ones who don't align their opinions along a feminine-first priority are tagged as misogynists and marginalized or ridiculed.

On some level of consciousness women know they're full of shît when they offer up the 'standard' chick advice. They know they're being less than genuine when they see this advice regularly contradicted by their own behaviors. Women (and now men) repeat in article after article how well developed the female capacity is for communication, so it follows that they must know to some, maybe subconscious, degree that they are being less than helpful if not deliberately misleading. Even the mothers with the best interests of their son's at stake still parrot these responses. It's like a female imperative. Why?

For the answer, all you have to do is look at the bios of single women on any online dating service. When asked to describe the characteristics they find desirable in a man, the single most common responses are confidence, decisiveness, independence. Traits that would require a man to be a Man and have the foresight and perseverance not to take things at face value. The guy with the capacity to call a woman's bluff with a confidence that implies she is to be worthy of him rather than the other way around is the Man to be competed for. Essentially the 'chick speak', 'chick advice' phenomenon is a shít test writ large on a social scale. And even your own mother and sisters are in on it, expecting you to get the message and see the challenge for what it really is, without overtly telling you.

Most guys are natural pragmatists, we look for the shortest most efficient way between two points. The deductive reasoning that follows is that if we want sex, and women have the sex we want, we ought to ask them what conditions they require from us in order for us to get it. The problem is that women don't want to tell us this, because in doing so it makes us less independent and and more compromising (and lazy) in our own identities in order to get at her sexuality. This is counter to the decisive, independent and masculine Man they really want and is evidenced in their behaviors. He should know what women want without asking because he's observed them often enough, been successful with them often enough, and taken the efforts to make decisions for himself based on their behaviors, especially in the face of a world full of women's conflicting words. This makes him the commodity in the face of a constant contradiction of her own and other women's motives, words and behaviors.

She want's you to get it on your own, without having to be told how. That initiative and the experience needed to have had developed it makes you a Man worth competing for.

It's clear to me that a lot of folks responding here dismissed that woman's article out of hand simply because she's a woman. As I pointed out, she is a "wing girl." She helps guys get girls, so unlike most women, she sees the courtship game from the other end and that has given her insight into attraction that most girls don't have.

You guys arent getting my point. They KNOW a bad boy is bad for them. They KNOW that he will cause her heartache. But the fact remains, they have an UNCONTROLLABLE physiological response to the bad boy. This is not a choice; it is ingrained in them. The girl who proclaims her love of a nice guy, even one with backbone will melt inside when in the presence of a masculine bad boy. Thats why she keeps on going to those movies and reading those books.

Almost always, hyper-masculinity is present in the bad boy. Similar to how we can be attracted to a beautiful woman who is bad for us.

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1) You haven't clearly defined what exactly is a "bad boy"
2) What traits in the bad boy are women attracted to?
3) Can a nice guy with a spine also be "hyper masculine?"

this Ladies take on the matter is quite absurd....more like the ideas that Women would like to believe than the truth....she has points,the personality thing can swing a decision,and yeah,in the long term it is THE all important aspect...but in the short term it is looks,status

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See Zekko's post above in rebuttal to this

The prey does not teach the hunter how better to catch it.

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That's not quite correct in this particular context because as a "wing girl" the prey actually helps the hunter to catch prey.

Rollo Tomassi said:

The prey does not teach the hunter how better to catch it.

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I can't reiterate this enough. I've all but given up on trying to help friends because they are so indoctrinated by women and society at large that it's too "uncomfortable" to accept this.

Despite "seeing" the sh-t all around them they continue to be in denial about it. Instead of taking this statement for what it's worth, it has to be taken out of context and to extremes to make it look counterintuitive.

You can get a good idea about what women want if you look back at your highschool days when things were more "raw" and in your face. The most wanted chicks were with the "popular" guys, who more often than not, were considered bad boys in some form or another. None that I can remember were ever responsible, upstanding individuals who did all their homework and behaved as required. If ever a guy who fit this discription were to land one of these chicks, it was over in a microsecond.

Lexington said:

That's not quite correct in this particular context because as a "wing girl" the prey actually helps the hunter to catch prey.

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How often does this work though? Most men are left to their own devices if they want to get some a--.

I once saw a great commercial on TV.

This girl is talking to her girlfriend on the phone. She is telling her friend that her blind date is on his way to pick her up.

She says, "For me to like him, he's going to have to dress like a regular guy with out pretensions.

Cut to the guy dressed to kill in a super-stylish outfit complete with cool sunglasses.

"He mustn't be into material things."

Cut to the guy's huge house in the background as he gets into his Lambo.

"He is going to have to love and respect nature."

Cut to Lambo shooting down the road, uprooting flowers along the side.

"He must be gentle and not aggressive".

Cut to Lambo shooting past a 30mph speed limit sign as the wind of the car makes the sign shake and rattle back and forth.

"I hope he doesn't try to buy my affections with flowers and candy. Oops, there's the bell. Gotta go"

Cut to her opening the door, and Mr. Bad Boy is standing there with flowers and candy.

Cut to her eyes opened wide and her body language indicating she is melting inside from attraction.

This is one of the best commercials I've ever seen and it perfectly illustrates my point. Most women think they want a polite, respectful gentlemen. What they ACTUALLY physiologically respond to is masculinity and the traditional characteristics of the bad boy.

Nature always has her way. Always.