It's gotten to the point where...

...I'm almost ready to tell girls, "Hey, let's f**k", just to filter them out.

I was chatting with this girl last night...I can tell right away she's one of these "damaged goods" types, one who's been with a lot of guys that have "used her" because she's too stupid to see it coming. You know, the PoF profile that says, "I'm not interested in hooking up, don't waste my time". As if a guy you haven't even met is going to love you platonically and unconditionally from day 1, or be attracted to you because of some dumb sh*t you wrote in a profile.

Anyway, we chat a little bit, I crack some jokes, get her laughing, and then she asks to see a pic of me besides what I have on MY profile. Reluctantly, I take one in front of the mirror, and ask her if she wants to see the "shirtless pic". I expect her to say, "No, TMI", but to my surprise, she's like, "Yeah, I want to see if you're fit." To which I respond, "I'll show you mine if you show me yours".

That sets her off. "What, you mean a sexual pic? I'm not into that. I don't know if I want to talk to you any more romantically if you're after sex. Blah blah blah." I guess she's used to guys backing off and being like, "No baby, I wanna love you for who you are" who don't even KNOW her yet.

Instead I'm just me..."I don't think I can date a girl that every time I get a little physically playful I get accused of wanting 'one thing'. Of course I want 'that thing'...every guy does. It's not ALL I want, but yeah, you're attractive."

*bzzt*...window closed.

That's why PoF sucks.

But it got me to thinking...some women REALLY expect that kind of crap. They expect a guy, sight unseen, to fall in love with them with ZERO sexual motivation, based on a picture and a paragraph on a crummy dating service.

I mean, REALLY. No need to hang out, learn about each other...I'm supposed to be desperate for love like every other chump out there, read the profile, and think, "yes, this girl will work for a lifelong companion....you've got my buy-in".

The funny thing is...THESE are the girls who get USED by guys who are less scrupulous than I am.

In this conversation before this shirtless discussion, she had mentioned how she met some guy online, he was talking about how "he loved her" and crap after a MONTH of dating her, then he suddenly became distant, started standing her up, blowing her off, etc.

Now what happened that made him suddenly flip the script like that? Isn't it obvious? She finally F**KED HIM.

I didn't want to say anything, but this poor girl is getting clowned like a three-ring circus because she's too stupid to tell that a guy who claims to be "in love" after a month is either a fool or a liar. He got the same script I got...only he chose to lie to her, tell her that he loved her, and take advantage of her trust and ignorance to get in her panties.

And then she's like, "I'm tired of guys who only want one thing". The paradox is this...the guys who are OVERT about wanting that "one thing" will NOT take advantage of a woman like that. THOSE are the ones, though, that are rejected out-of-turn at the slightest tease, fresh move, or suggestive comment.

The ones who she keeps around are the ones who profess their love out of the corner of their mouthsm acting like three dates with her is enough for him to be in love, all the while thinking, "c'mon, c'mon...just a little further and I've got her!"

This is why withholding sex BACKFIRES on women. Because NO GOOD MAN is going to tolerate a b!tchy girl talking about how she hates guys who like sex. EVERYONE likes sex...and good men have better things to do with their time than deal with a woman who's prudish to the point of being a b!tch.

The ONLY guys who hang around a girl who expects to be able to withhold sex are saps/beta males who hope to sneak into her panties with the "friend" approach, and the silver-toungued lay-artists who tell them "what they want to hear", namely that she's such a wonderful person.

Here's a hint to the ladies...if it seems like guys are "only interested in you for one thing", maybe it's because that's all you have that interests them. Girls with sparkling personalities that men actually WANT to be with...they can fool around all they want and it won't help OR hurt their chances.

It's getting to the point where I just want to go back to a college-age overt sexual approach with women...not necessarily verbally, but heavy-kino, hard eye-contact, suggestive tone, and suggestive teasing/flirting.

It seems like it's the people who "demand maturity" who are the most IMmature of them all. All of the smartest people I know know better than to take this "love" crap so seriously.

squirrels said:

I mean, REALLY. No need to hang out, learn about each other...I'm supposed to be desperate for love like every other chump out there

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She probably feels the same way about sex. As in: No need to hang out or learn about each other, just give you the sex (or in this case at least a topless photo). But I agree you were just being playful with her and she overreacted.

squirrels said:

The ones who she keeps around are the ones who profess their love out of the corner of their mouthsm acting like three dates with her is enough for him to be in love

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That's curious, because according to this forum, that should be a massive turn off to women. And yet, you're saying that those are the only guys who are succeeding with this chick.

zekko said:

That's curious, because according to this forum, that should be a massive turn off to women. And yet, you're saying that those are the only guys who are succeeding with this chick.

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YES. Because they can SELL it. Essentially, this girl, aside from being decent looking physically, is NOT a high-value target. She's "damaged goods", so concerned with finding someone to validate her that a guy who's good at selling the whole "love story" can get in her pants reasonably quickly. Now it's not going to happen on the first date, obviously. But these guys are willing to play the game long enough to hook up with her, I guess.

I have never been able to do that...pretend to be all about a girl when really I just want to get into her pants. I know people who HAVE used that approach and it's worked for them. Sometimes I wish I WAS less scrupulous.

You'd be surprised how effed up people these days are in the head, and how easy it is to take advantage of that. The problem is that when a decent guy DOES come along for this girl, one who's straight-up and honest and not "playing games", she'll blow him off out-of-turn.

Truth is...women (most women) are dumb. They have all these ideas in their head about what love and romance are supposed to be, and what makes a good romance, passed down from friends and family, cliche half-truths that have been misinterpreted, fairy-tales, and retarded magazines full of articles by people who spout whatever they think as if they are authorities. Most of what they "know" is wrong.

I've reached a point where I don't even feel compelled to take them seriously...that offends a lot of them, but goddammit, I don't have time to waste on this crap.

squirrels said:

a guy who's good at selling the whole "love story" can get in her pants reasonably quickly.

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I've seen guys good at faking this also.

But it still seems strange, since they tell you here on this forum that women will view you as a beta wuss if you are too romantic or express love feelings too quickly. They pretty much tell you here to go in the complete opposite direction. They tell you to laugh at these guys playing the romance card because the women will supposedly be getting wet for you because you don't. And yet there seems to be a fairly large number of guys out there who are quite successful with this approach.

zekko said:

I've seen guys good at faking this also.

But it still seems strange, since they tell you here on this forum that women will view you as a beta wuss if you are too romantic or express love feelings too quickly. They pretty much tell you here to go in the complete opposite direction. They tell you to laugh at these guys playing the romance card because the women will supposedly be getting wet for you because you don't. And yet there seems to be a fairly large number of guys out there who are quite successful with this approach.

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Depends on the girl.

I'm saying be on the lookout for girls who complain about "all men only wanting one thing". Chances are she is desperate for affection and will put out within a couple of dates if you're willing to bullsh*t about being into her.

If you're NOT, then this can be an indicator to not waste your time...because chances are all she's got to offer is sex anyway.

Welcome to my world.

I too am not the type to lie and lead-on, and I definitely see a difference in my sexual success rate now versus the days when I'd jump through that extra hoop to get a chick in the sack.

I'm now a lot less apologetic about having a sex drive, and I cut to the chase pretty quickly once it's apparent that a woman doesn't have much else to offer other than her body. (And a LOT of them simply don't... Sorry.) What's ironic is these chicks think they're soooooo smart that they're constantly psyching themselves out and deluding themselves about the values of their ****s. They're becoming more prudish by the day, yet they do little-to-nothing to develop any facet of themselves aside from their exteriors.

I just can't take them seriously anymore.

DMSR76 said:

Welcome to my world.

I too am not the type to lie and lead-on, and I definitely see a difference in my sexual success rate now versus the days when I'd jump through that extra hoop to get a chick in the sack.

I'm now a lot less apologetic about having a sex drive, and I cut to the chase pretty quickly once it's apparent that a woman doesn't have much else to offer other than her body. (And a LOT of them simply don't... Sorry.) What's ironic is these chicks think they're soooooo smart that they're constantly psyching themselves out and deluding themselves about the values of their ****s. They're becoming more prudish by the day, yet they do little-to-nothing to develop any facet of themselves aside from their exteriors.

I just can't take them seriously anymore.

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Yes, that's exactly what I'm saying. Women who have been hyped up on hyper-feminist opinions coupled with idle compliments from guys trying to get into their panties...they start assuming that just because they are good-looking and so many guys want to bang them, they must be "high-quality", and automatically bridge the gap from "high-quality" to thinking that they're smarter, more interesting, wiser, more cultured, more fun, etc, than they really are.

"Look upon my perky breasts...am I not a goddess?? How DARE you suggest that I am not awesome in every way! Who are YOU, mere mortal, to suggest that you need to get to KNOW me better before you can commit to loving me?? LOOK at my body! How much time do you need? Hurry, now...get down to your knees before someone beats you to it!"

Yet they're still single. Because no guys out there are good enough for them, right?

Please, tell me about your time sitting on a beach in Costa Rica and how it somehow makes you "more cultured" that you've been out of the country. Wow, you could buy a plane-ticket and a hotel room just to do the same "nothing" you always do. Tell me how interesting your life is, when you spend every night in front of the TV watching your favorite shows in your crummy, depressing basement-apartment, leaving only to go to your turd secretarial job. Oh yeah, that makes you a "professional" woman. I should be intimidated by your business-savvy because you can file alphabetically and send E-mails. Maybe if your t!ts are big enough they move you to marketing-lackey. Then you've REALLY made it, baby!

You can blow off only so many women before you start getting TIRED of this atttitude...and you start to wonder, where are all the GOOD women?

Surely not where I'M looking.

squirrels said:

Please, tell me about your time sitting on a beach in Costa Rica and how it somehow makes you "more cultured" that you've been out of the country. Wow, you could buy a plane-ticket and a hotel room just to do the same "nothing" you always do. Tell me how interesting your life is, when you spend every night in front of the TV watching your favorite shows in your crummy, depressing basement-apartment, leaving only to go to your turd secretarial job. Oh yeah, that makes you a "professional" woman. I should be intimidated by your business-savvy because you can file alphabetically and send E-mails. Maybe if your t!ts are big enough they move you to marketing-lackey. Then you've REALLY made it, baby!

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Bring it, Squirrels! :cheer:

squirrels said:

Please, tell me about your time sitting on a beach in Costa Rica and how it somehow makes you "more cultured" that you've been out of the country. Wow, you could buy a plane-ticket and a hotel room just to do the same "nothing" you always do.

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Ah...... The chick-travel phenomenon.

They always brag about traveling and whatnot, yet all this 'exposure' and opportunity for new perspective somehow does nothing to cultivate within them the most basic sense of humanity. After all the random, pseudo-lesbian jet-setting, they return oozing the same sense of entitlement and simplemindedness they had before they got on the plane. Amazing how that works.

Let's take inventory on the wonder that is single womanhood these days:

• Wack personality

• Little-to-no depth of character

• Little-to-no discipline (unless it involves 'protecting' their ****s)

• Hypergamous outlooks on dating

• No sense of reciprocity (the man does aaaaall the work in the interaction)

• Poor understanding of femininity

• Nice tits

• Nice ass

• Nice legs

• Pretty face

Hmmm.... Sounds like a winner. For one night at least.

First of your problem is POF lol

Secondly, I've noticed this trend as well, women withholding the cooch to try to "trick" you into a relationship, I see it all the time, with chicks now trying it on me. They want me to chase them, "woo" them etc. I've talked about this on my blog with one chick ("roofie chick") these chicks online arent worth a date or even my time. The sad part of it all is, that most of them aren't even that good looking once you meet them.

one chick I met recently went from a 7 to a 4. She was 60 pounds heavier, if that's the case I rather not be seen in public @ all and have fatty blow me on my couch then send her on her way!

Squirrels, I can relate to what you are saying and you make some valid points.

However, I've read my sisters messages she gets on POF and it disgusts me. I've heard the stories from her and many others of guys sending pics of their privates with out ever going out with them. Women are tired of this behavior. They are a bit jaded about it and have little tolerance for anything that resembles another dose of it.

You did little during your interaction to portray yourself as something different than another perv looking for sechs. She called you out for it and you reinforced her belief of you. Yes you did so in a joking manner but she didn't take it as such.

Its kind of like this......most of the experienced guys on this forum have almost no tolerance for flakes or golddiggers. Most shut down at the first hint of anything that resembles that possibility. This girl hates pervs so her defense mechanism kicked in and she shut you out. The two things are very similar.

A little subtleness goes a long way with a chic. They are masters at decoding subtleness. I think you could have made your point in a less direct manner and not offended this chic. The term "calibration" comes to mind. Leaving a little mystery about yourself never hurts either.

squirrels said:

You can blow off only so many women before you start getting TIRED of this atttitude...and you start to wonder, where are all the GOOD women?

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In their young years!!

I used to date around my age (early to mid 30s) but at one point I realized that all I was seeing in this range were Damaged Goods, Golddiggers, Single Moms, Unrealistic Expectations, etc. In other words, women that were fucked up.

I decided to go younger. Much younger. One of the best decisions I've made in my life: youth, with the flexibility of being molded to my liking.

Surely not where I'M looking.

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Well, certainly PoF is not a place to find quality women.

"Be mindful of your surrondings, Luke."

When you are trolling (using fishing vernacular here) in a lake replete with toxic waste guess what more likely or nor your going to land a fish that's mutated or not edible. It's very rare that you will get a fish that's suitable for eating.

PoF is for hooking up and to expect anything else would be somewhat silly.

Also remember that internet dating requires the least amount of interaction on a personal basis. Look what Rollo said about texting it applies to internet interactions as well. It can be used in a way that's highly beneficial but only as supplemental to real-world interaction.

The key here is expectations. They need to be lowered here for the simple reason that it's hard to filter through the internet people's pasts, their actual physical appearance, and how they interact.

When you meet in person you can make quick decisions and already know if there is something there or not.

I would go as far as to argue that PoF etc is inherently geared towards women because it allows them to have lots of men hit on them and they get to anonymously filter out the undesirables. However, as a male you don't really learn because you're not getting any body language or talk to read, whereas when you ask a girl out in person or get a number you can make judgements based on body language, tone, and content. Real world failures are an imperative to growing and understanding your weak areas and becoming better at interacting with women.

My suggestion is that you should work real world game and avoid pusruing internet women until the time you become supremely proficient at real world game and internet gaming is a like 5 or 6th source for meeting women.

This original thread comes off as being too outcome dependent, which is a big time killer for guys when it comes to women.

DMSR76 said:

Ah...... The chick-travel phenomenon.

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Thats actually pretty funny, I've noticed this also. I swear they do it just to have pictures to put on facebook. Yeah, I've been out of the country plenty of times, do I care? No. I've spent the cost of a weekend trip to mexico over the weekend at various bars and restaurants. So what's their point?

squirrels said:

Please, tell me about your time sitting on a beach in Costa Rica and how it somehow makes you "more cultured" that you've been out of the country. Wow, you could buy a plane-ticket and a hotel room just to do the same "nothing" you always do. Tell me how interesting your life is, when you spend every night in front of the TV watching your favorite shows in your crummy, depressing basement-apartment, leaving only to go to your turd secretarial job. Oh yeah, that makes you a "professional" woman. I should be intimidated by your business-savvy because you can file alphabetically and send E-mails. Maybe if your t!ts are big enough they move you to marketing-lackey. Then you've REALLY made it, baby!

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I don't like the term but this is basically a sh!t test. She is just throwing out her life experiences to see how yours match up. If yours are equivalent or outdo hers, she will probably drop the superior attitude. You may not like the chosen yardstick but she is free to judge you on whatever criteria she likes. I've been all over, both for work and play (in fact, I want to go surfing in Costa Rica this fall) so I don't have too many issues with this test. The issue I have is no stability at home, which is a different yardstick -- but everyone has different strengths and weaknesses.

I haven't posted in a while, but I felt like chipping in on this thread because it seems like the same old negativity this forum is infamous for. Squirrels I think you are going about this the wrong way. You are wishing for a quality women so you can have a good time. Instead you should be focusing on having a good time, and simply learn to cope with the actual women who are out there with all their flaws and imperfections so you have positive interactions rather than frustrating ones. Quick example? Wearing a condom can mean the difference between a good time and a catastrophe. Same imperfect girl -- it's your own actions towards her that make the difference.

Theoretical question: would you rather have a fun day with a 4, or a sh!tty depressing day with a 9? Personally I'd take a fun day with a 4. It wouldn't involve sex, maybe you'd go to 6 Flags or something -- but you are having fun and making your life better. On paper this is easy, but what actually happens? I think the majority of guys on this forum would choose a sh!tty depressing day with a "9" headcase, since they're locked into chasing a phantom with a pretty face because they think only that will make them happy.

This is why guys are so stupid. You become a casualty of dating stress, at which point you are a walking red flag (and endlessly harping on about "quality women" qualifies) which will warn away well-balanced women who know better. You are wearing that good or bad experience the rest of your life -- maybe that sounds melodramatic, but its true. Your experiences stay with you, for better or worse. That's why the term "damaged goods" exists.

More relevantly to your case, Squirrels, you chose to spend your time getting into email drama on POF, when you could have done something that brings value to your life. I'm not telling you to make excuses for the flaws of other people, or blame yourself for their issues, but turning the mirror inward is always more productive because your choices start with you and you can affect them. That "quality woman" thing is never going to come true and your probably know that.

If you are getting burnt out on women, change what you're doing. There is nothing complicated about that.

zekko said:

I've seen guys good at faking this also.

But it still seems strange, since they tell you here on this forum that women will view you as a beta wuss if you are too romantic or express love feelings too quickly. They pretty much tell you here to go in the complete opposite direction. They tell you to laugh at these guys playing the romance card because the women will supposedly be getting wet for you because you don't. And yet there seems to be a fairly large number of guys out there who are quite successful with this approach.

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a

The key to silver tounge devil game is to tell her what she wants to hear while agressively trying to get into her pants. She knows you wanna fuk and she's getting what she wants to hear...win and win.

It's betas/afcs/chumps who tell her what she wants to hear and never make a move.

pof, in terms of meeting decent women is a silly pastime, however i find it a great source of amusement and its also great for trying out lines and techniques to find out the various responses, its funny what sh!t you can get away with and you really can gain a degree of insight into women if you can engage them for a while.

The chick is just looking for "leverage", thats all. When they know they can make you wait, it means they're in control of the frame. She's probably looking for more of a provider, a guy she can sink her teeth into.

Young, attractive women are the complete opposite. They're after whatever gives them tingles, and it certainly isn't nice, romantic guys.

It all depends on how valuable any given woman is. Lower value = Nice Guy, higher value = a--hole. These terms aren't to be taken literally.

I do understand what you are saying. She's female, you're male -- there is a reason you are both talking and you know very well what the dynamic is there. However, everyone has different backgrounds, a level of comfort with their own bodies or own sexuality -- some people rush into things more quickly than others. Maybe she just didn't know you well enough for that quite yet -- doesn't mean she wouldn't -- and hell if you keep working to know her better she may go with it. I wouldn't rule it out just yet. But I would say sometimes being too strong can push a woman away, there are some women who have been used & abused and place some level of walls around themselves to see what this man is "really after". And if she's really after a relationship and you're not -- then it's good that things didn't flow exactly. But yes, using sex to hold over someone or to inflate a person's level of power in a relationship is manipulative and not someone worth spending time with. But all things too have ebbs and flows...ie, sometimes I myself am mentally not there and sex is not my prime motive [albeit as a male this is probably more rare than a female].

I do not know what it might be like to be a woman exactly, but I can imagine the levels of sexual aggression she receives from the outside world of males can make her this way. As a female, especially a good-looking one, men are eying them up and down all day -- this can make a woman feel somewhat defensive, IF she is after some form of relationship beyond pure sexual encounters (and truth be told there are many women who are simply just looking for sex). Maybe she wanted a boyfriend, ect and this scared her or was too strong given whatever level of rapport you have.

/EDIT/ I would say though too some women *crave* and desire this male attention ... probably a lot of them ... which can be frustrating because then when you're trying to seal the deal she acts offended...why? Maybe she's just a prude b.tic man, who knows. You seem like a guy who has plenty of options, no big deal.

One thing that's overlooked here is the fact that this chick was cool with the idea of him sending her a shirtless pic, yet she turned into a Puritan when he jokingly suggested she reciprocate.

Regardless of whether the interaction was online or not (this sort of thing certainly happens face-to-face as well), the bottom line is a guy is bound to get tired of dealing with Takers all the time. These people make poor impressions, yet they always expect to receive some type of royal treatment. This is in spite of the fact that they never pull their weight during interactions with the opposite sex.

I understand exactly where the OP is coming from with his observation.