Hi all,
Someone emailed me the other day asking for my thoughts about an interaction he had with a chick he found attractive in the gym that he goes to.
I wrote a very long response, because his story got me thinking about the whole concept of desire versus obligation, and how the art of seduction is really about how to cultivate a woman's attraction and her desire for you, it is not about trying to appeal to her sense of fair play, or feelings of obligation, or her wish to be percieved as a nice person, and so on.
So, for those who have the time and inclination, here I am posting his email to me, along with a lengthy discussion about the themes it brought up. I figured some of you out there might have some interesting and helpful insights to add.
Note, by the way, that I am posting his email here with his express consent, and I'm also referring to him by the pseudonym of "Richard" to protect his privacy.
First I will post his email, followed by my response. Oh, and because this is such a long post covering so much, feel free to requote & respond to just a small piece of it!
************
Hi DB,
I just had a fairly unpleasant C&B experience tonight, and I'm still trying to make sense of it. I'm not asking for or expecting answers. I just need to talk to someone, and I would appreciate your patience.
I had been sarging a chick who works out and teaches at my gym. I've known her for about two years, though not well. Not only was she hot-looking, but she had a cool, down-to-earth personality.
A few months ago, around the time I started learning SS, I started moving in on her. My sarge was drawn-out and very imperfect. Still, I patterned well enough so that it got a favorable response from her.
A little over a week ago, I went up to her, said outright she was cute and I wanted to get to know her better. She seemed torn but clearly open to the possibility of going out. She said she was uncomfortable with people at the gym knowing that she was going out with someone there.
I understood her concern, but I just couldn't find the words to reassure or comfort her (damn!), so I ended up saying nothing and just got her phone #. In the days after, we crossed paths but felt uneasy going forward.
I do admit I didn't convey comfort or reassurance in my demeanor, as I myself felt uncomfortable in the gym. This might have undid me in the end.
Goddamnit, DB, I was so goddamn close - THIS close - and I blew it!
I called her but couldn't reach her. Finally, at the gym I went up to her and asked to talk to her outside.
She kept stalling and said she had to go. I persisted and said, "well, let's make time then." She got mad that I persisted and finally left. Only later did I learn that this incident was the dealbreaker.
She called that night, and left a terse, unfriendly message saying we shouldn't go out. I called her 2 days later and she repeated her message.
I feel I have a good reason to be angry at her, even despite my imperfect sarge. I was respectful and direct, and I gave her no justification for her unfriendly behavior. She never acted like this before. I actually don't mind her rejection, but it's the *way* she rejected.
On ASF or SS we're so super-conscious of power dynamics between the sexes that it seems almost quaint to think a woman can and *should* show grace and kindness, even when they ditch a guy.
But maybe such acute awareness is justified. I thought about going up to her and saying, "you know, I don't mind rejection. But your unfriendly behavior was gratuitous."
But if I express such indignation, I lose because all she sees is a guy who didn't get what he wanted, and now he's just whining. The appeal solely to integrity is the tactic of the weak and defeated, and even if she did agree with me, she would feel only indifference or contempt.
I don't know, DB. I know the PU game is best viewed coolly, and that we employ some degree of predictability when analyzing chick behavior. And I do admit f**king up, and I can argue even that I got what was coming.
On the other hand, I wonder: is a chick's character worth recognizing so that when she behaves rudely - even during a sarge - criticism is warranted and not irrelevant?
I know, I know - guys on ASF will say, "tough, that's the way it is," and I mostly agree. But I wonder if that kind of thinking about chicks is sometimes a little too linear.
From one angle, I can be justly criticized for causing her unfriendliness. Yet, the fault was purely tactical, not because of my lack of integrity. The mistake was akin to using the wrong fork at the dinner table.
The funny thing is that by being unpleasant, she undid anything unique I had previously saw in her. She became just another b**ch, vindicating all the predictability I had just questioned above.
DB, I hope you understand. I'm a little bent out of shape right now, but I'll be fine. Well, anyway, this was a learning experience, and even the bad experiences are good ones.
Richard
******************
DeepBlue reply:
Hi Richard,
Before I get started, there is one thing you will need to keep in mind. Namely that the things you did, you did because they flow from how you see things, your logic about the world, and even though some of the things you did, did NOT get the results you wanted, a part of you is inevitably going to continue viewing what you said and did as being “right” and the things I’m going to suggest will to some extent seem “wrong” to you.
If you are going to benefit from my suggestions, you have to trust in the possibility that maybe the things I say are right for you, even if on a gut level they might at first seem like they can't possibly be right. Consider them, give them a chance, and you may find that they ultimately become a comfortable fit for you, while bringing you the outcomes you seek.
Richard wrote:
Hi DB,
I just had a fairly unpleasant C&B experience tonight, and I'm still trying to make sense of it. I'm not asking for or expecting answers. I just need to talk to someone, and I would appreciate your patience.
I had been sarging a chick who works out and teaches at my gym. I've known her for about two years, though not well. Not only was she hot-looking, but she had a cool, down-to-earth personality.
A few months ago, around the time I started learning SS, I started moving in on her. My sarge was drawn-out and very imperfect. Still, I patterned well enough so that it got a favorable response from her.
A little over a week ago, I went up to her, said outright she was cute and I wanted to get to know her better.
DeepBlue reply:
Sorry you had an unpleasant crash & burn, I guess that’s why they call it “burn”.
To begin with, I see two things that went wrong right off the bat.
First, it sounds like you presented her cuteness as the basis for your wanting to get to know her better. That probably reflects the honest truth about how you feel, but it is a RICHARD-centric approach. In other words, I see what is in it for you--you get to be with a cute girl. But what is in it for her? The fact that you find her cute? If she were unattractive or unpopular then it could mean a lot to her to be with a guy who thinks she is cute, just so that in his eyes she gets to be cute. But you said she is “hot” looking so that isn’t enough. She probably knows that a lot of guys find her attractive. So there needs to be something more drawing her to you.
It could be that you get into a discussion that is SO fascinating to her (let me emphasize the words: *to her*) or it could be that you are so sexy that she finds herself getting excited by talking to you, or it could be that you appear to be very popular and she is drawn to you for social status, etc.
The point is that your side of the equation is obvious--you are drawn to her because she looks hot. The other half of the equation is for you to be a guy whom SHE feels drawn to. That is the girl-centric half of the equation--her needs, her wants, her desires--that is the side of the equation you need to provide. It’s a bit like a salesman trying to sell a product.
How far is a salesman going to get talking about how much he’d love to have the customer’s money? He has to pitch what the product is going to do for the customer. And when YOU are the product, then there is the added complexity that pitching your own value must be done indirectly.
Why? Because desirable guys are accustomed to having women eagerly pursuing them. This means that any effort you put into making a woman desire you has to appear effortless and unintentional or it will backfire--any visible effort you put into trying to attract women is associated with unpopular guys who aren’t accustomed to having women chasing after them. (This concept is most difficult for those guys who are used to being highly rewarded for putting a lot of visible effort into solving problems at work.)
Richard wrote:
She seemed torn but clearly open to the possibility of going out.
DeepBlue reply:
Based on other things you described, I see two possibilities here:
One is that she was torn, but only because she wanted to say no, and at the same time she wanted to avoid hurting your feelings or create an uncomfortable situation--especially considering that she is likely to run into you again in the gym.
The other possibility is that she genuinely did feel a spark of interest at that point, and it conflicted with an ingrained resistance to overtures by gym members.
Richard wrote:
She said she was uncomfortable with people at the gym knowing that she was going out with someone there.
DeepBlue reply:
That sounds like a good description of an ingrained resistance to overtures by fellow gym members! Which brings me to the second problem with the “you’re cute, and I’d like to get to know you better” approach which is that it doesn’t distinguish you from the general mass of other gym members. On the contrary, it makes it easy for her to perceive you as “just another gym member” hitting on her, and that will trigger her general resistance to opening herself to overtures from that whole category of guys. In your approach, you need to find a way to come across as being “different from the rest”.
Richard wrote:
I understood her concern, but I just couldn't find the words to reassure or comfort her (damn!), so I ended up saying nothing and just got her phone #. In the days after, we crossed paths but felt uneasy going forward.
I do admit I didn't convey comfort or reassurance in my demeanor, as I myself felt uncomfortable in the gym. This might have undid me in the end.
Goddamnit, DB, I was so goddamn close - THIS close - and I blew it!
I called her but couldn't reach her. Finally, at the gym I went up to her and asked to talk to her outside.
DeepBlue reply:
Going up to her and asking her to talk outside may have made talking into a BIG deal. Sometimes that's ok, but since she’s already a bit leery about her involvement with you, the last thing she wants is to have that feeling amplified by making the meeting into a big deal. That’s why she kept stalling--it’s like you’re calling her into the Principals office for a “serious talk”. Bottom line is that you need to find a way to have those convos come up in a more casual way--at least until you get to the point where she is clearly eager to talk to you. At that point, it’s okay to make a bigger deal out of taking time to talk because she will like it.
Richard wrote:
She kept stalling and said she had to go. I persisted and said, "well, let's make time then."
DeepBlue reply:
Aaaack! You are bullying her! You probably don’t realize it, and don’t think you intend to bully her, but you are. Why should she make time???? You’re essentially saying that she “should” make time. Why? Just because YOU want it? You have shifted over to guiding her through feelings of *obligation* based on notions about what is fair, what she “should” or “shouldn’t” do, and so on.
That is not seduction. It is a form of pressure. You want to be guiding her actions by creatively managing her feelings of attraction and desire, not some sense of obligation or fair play.
Listen very carefully here, because this is the essence of everything I have to say here. She has to WANT to spend time with you. THAT has always got to be your goal. You’re getting caught up in pursuing the objective of spending time with her, and proceeding in an efficient goal oriented way you are losing sight of the essential goal which is to make her WANT to spend time with you.
The reason you’ve been doing this is because you’ve been focusing on your RICHARD-centric goal of being with a cute girl, and you have not been thinking enough in terms of what a woman wants, and the art of making HER want and desire being with you.
The rationale in your head might be, “ha, if I can get her to spend time with me then I’ll be able to work my magic on her and make her really desire me.” But that magic must begin from the moment she first sees you. You aren’t getting a date, then making her desire you. You are making her desire to talk to you, making her desire to give you her number, making her desire to get together with you and spend more time with you. These are essential intermediate level victories you must win in order to make genuine progress. Making her WANT you every step of the way is the difference between seduction and rape.
Instead you are jumping ahead. As a guy you are ready to have sex with that hot babe, right now! That has made you impatient with her needs, and has caused you to overlook the significance of these little victories--the cultivation of her desire, step by step--in the seduction process.
If you get her to WANT to give you her number, you should consider that a far greater victory than the actual fact of getting her number. Having a chick’s number doesn’t count for much. Having her eagerly awaiting your call is what counts. I have tens of thousands of chicks phone numbers--after all, they are all sitting there in the public phone book. The real achievement is making her want to give it to you, and making her long to have you call her.
If she did have any spark of interest in you, then your job is to nurture that little spark and fan it into flames of full blown desire. You do that by being a magnet. Pull not push. You have to operate through the force of *attraction* rather than the force of pressure, every step of the way.
You are relying heavily on “shoulds” in your expectations towards her:
I ask for her number so she should give it, I call her so she should want to talk, I ask her to get together so she should agree, etc.
The “should” expectation arises entirely from your own wants, not from hers. If you want to work with her reality you have to discard most of those shoulds. Not all, but most. If she says she’ll meet you at 3:00 sharp then she should be there at 3:00 or close to it.
But if you ask her to meet you, you will either succeed at making her want to meet you, or you won’t. Get rid of the idea that she “should” want to talk to you or get together with you just because you want to. That thinking comes from your own needs, your own urgency, and that whole perspective will reveal itself in your demeanor, making her feel pressured. The problem is that this approach actually works, in the short run, and that often leads guys into viewing it as the right way to proceed. You CAN force a yes from a chick that way, because she’ll give in to the pressure, but later she’ll look for a way to get out of it and you’ll end up dismissing her as yet another “flake.”
Rather than running after a girl, trying to get her to do things, strive to bring about in her a desire that draws her to you. Then reward her, by giving her opportunities to be with you. That way you are *attracting* her to you, rather than trying to push and prod her into various agreements which you then try to hold her to. The first path leads to success, the second path creates the illusion of progress, but is a dead end.
Whatever you do, always keep in mind that the goal is to get her to reach for you, emotionally speaking, every step of the way. Even the words “get her to reach” is risky here, because words like “make her,” “get her” and so on are frequently associated with the push approach, and the idea is to step back and learn to create a situation that makes her eagerly seek you.
If a guy isn’t accustomed to being pursued by women, this approach can seem very alien making it difficult to switch gears and then he stay’s stuck in the pursuer role. That isn’t all bad--the devoted pursuer type often appeals to women who want to get married--such women often seek guys who will pursue her ardently enough to jump through one hoop after another till finally he jumps through the hoop of marrying her.
But if your interest is mainly sexual, because you have a hard on for some hot babe, in that scenario you must make her pursue you. Sure, you still make the *overt* moves, and on the surface it may look like you are pursuing her, but that’s an illusion. What is really happening is that you are making her reach for you emotionally (just as her *looks* have drawn you towards her, emotionally) and then your overt moves come to her not as pressure, but as a reward for successfully pursuing you.
In your case, you as a man, feel a full blown desire for the gym chick because she looks hot, and that desire you feel is pressuring YOU. And, feeling yourself being pressured, you are passing that pressured feeling on to her, because you’d like her to feel the same urgent level of interest towards you that you feel towards her. Your desire hit you suddenly, and naturally you wish she’d hurry up and feel the exact same way towards you, PRONTO!
But to be a good Casanova, you must let go of that impatience. Incidentally, if you’ve ever read a “Penthouse Letter” that sort of fantasy about immediate gratification will interfere with real life success. That fantasy is misleading. It is very rare for a woman to go from being strangers to wanting to f**k in a matter of minutes, and when it happens it is usually in a special place, the chick is in an unusual state of mind--on top of the guy being both perceptive enough to recognize the girl’s smoldering feelings of lust, and also ballsy enough to act on it.
Yes, I realize you weren’t trying to get the gym girl to f**k you then and there, but your approach is almost as pressured as if you were. And the essence of “pressure” is that you are in the mindset of trying to nudge her into doing things she apparently doesn’t feel like doing, instead of focusing 100% on bringing out & working with her attraction and her desire so that she’ll eagerly WANT to do those things.
The process of making a woman want you is in some ways similar to training a dog to jump through a hoop. But instead of making the woman jump, you are making her reach for you emotionally, inside.
You do what you can to get that first little spark of desire and then when she reaches for you, you *reward* that in some small way. With kino, or a flattering remark, or a big smile. But then you have to take a small step back, emotionally, and wait for her to emotionally reach out a little bit more, before you reward her again. It’s like a dance. And it takes some patience. To cultivate feelings of *longing* in her, you must periodically give her room to indulge in feelings of longing.
Guys who feel pressured by their own sex drive, or by the insecure fear that the girl may not reciprocate with similar interest have a tendency to run after a woman, to crowd her, trying to *make* her agree to things and it is counterproductive. It fails to make her desire him so the approach is doomed from the start. That is the sort of approach that always leads to some guy complaining about how a woman agreed to something, but then she rudely backed out or “flaked”.
Richard wrote:
She got mad that I persisted and finally left. Only later did I learn that this incident was the dealbreaker.
DeepBlue reply:
Because you were singlemindedly focusing on what YOU want, based on a RICHARD-centric view, and pushing for that as though her interest in you were irrelevant, when you should have been gradually developing her initial spark of interest into something greater through repeated steps of withdrawing slightly, then rewarding her when she takes a step towards pursuing you.
Richard wrote:
She called that night, and left a terse, unfriendly message saying we shouldn't go out. I called her 2 days later and she repeated her message.
DeepBlue reply:
The sequence you initiated here is simple:
Each time you pushed, she pulls back.
She pulls back, you pushed even more.
You push even more, she pulls back even more.
Instead of drawing out her impulse to pursue you by being the one to pull back now and then, you did the opposite. You cultivated her impulse to push you away, by pursuing her whenever she pulled back.
Building attraction is a bit like a tennis rally. You hit the ball to her, then wait for her to hit it back. If she isn’t hitting it back fast enough for you, you can’t just keep on hitting more balls to her. You must get a back and forth rally going.
Richard wrote:
I feel I have a good reason to be angry at her, even despite my imperfect sarge. I was respectful and direct, and I gave her no justification for her unfriendly behavior. She never acted like this before I actually don't mind her rejection, but it's the *way* she rejected.
DeepBlue reply:
I see this often. When a guy becomes too focused on his own needs, and his objective of having a girl give him a phone number, or having her agree to spend time with him, it becomes too easy for him to overlook the essential step of getting the girl to WANT these things. Instead, it rapidly deteriorates into a push, push interaction every step of the way, asking for her number, asking for her to go outside, asking for her to agree to something. You need to jettison that viewpoint entirely.
Women will tend to go along with those little nudges, because they fear confrontations, but I guarantee they will be dropping hints the whole time that they don’t feel interested. They will make excuses, they will stall, they will exhibit a bored look on their face or even act a little rude.
Unfortunately, some guys become so accustomed to pushing for what they want, instead of attracting the woman into seeking him, that they keep pushing, and when the woman starts dropping even more blatant hints that she isn’t interested the pressure-oriented guy is liable to confront her about how she is being rude or unfriendly or whatever. Since chicks usually try to avoid confrontations, she may say that she is sorry and politely agree to something, but that is just more illusory success because it fails to accomplish the all important step of making her WANT the things she is agreeing to.
So...the fact that you were “respectful and direct” is not relevant from the standpoint of seduction. She doesn’t owe you her number or a date or sex, just because you are respectful and direct. Nothing short of arousing her interest and her desire so that SHE is seeking to be with you will do.
Richard wrote:
On ASF or SS we're so super-conscious of power dynamics between the sexes that it seems almost quaint to think a woman can and *should* show grace and kindness, even when they ditch a guy.
But maybe such acute awareness is justified. I thought about going up to her and saying, "you know, I don't mind rejection. But your unfriendly behavior was gratuitous."
DeepBlue reply:
As far as her owing you politeness is concerned, it sounds like she was polite at first and she hinted many times that she wasn’t interested, and it is only because you continued pursuing her that she finally blew up about it.
Let me say again that women are often afraid of confrontation. If you ask her for something point blank, especially in the place where she works, then she is not misleading you by giving you her number, she is protecting herself. I often hear guys complain that a woman “should be up front about what she wants and not agree to something if she isn’t interested.” This notion--that women “should” be unafraid of confrontation--is nothing more than a rationalization that some guys lean on to excuse their use of pressure with women. You are far better off giving up that approach entirely and learning the dance of attraction, because the pressure approach is a *dead end*.
The pressure approach--leading a woman through various should’s and feelings of obligation brings only illusory progress at best.
It is NOT a form of genuine progress, seduction-wise, to get a woman’s number or get her to agree to anything if you aren’t also making her WANT those things every step of the way.
If a chick starts looking bored, or giving excuses and stalling or acts a bit rude and unfriendly, it usually means you have been pursuing her too hard, and you need to re-establish the dynamic of letting her pursue you.
Always remember that your goal is to have her desiring you--not to have her begrudgingly agreeing to things. Don’t suggest anything without first whetting her appetite for it. And as much as possible, get her to suggest the thing you want as though it was her idea.
Richard wrote:
But if I express such indignation, I lose because all she sees is a guy who didn't get what he wanted, and now he's just whining. The appeal solely to integrity is the tactic of the weak and defeated, and even if she did agree with me, she would feel only indifference or contempt.
DeepBlue reply:
Again, you didn’t pay proper attention to making her WANT things every step of the way, and once you asked her out, from that point forward everything you got from her was coerced (from a woman’s non-confrontational point of view) rather than arising from her feelings of attraction and desire towards you--feelings which you must bring out in her.
Richard wrote:
I don't know, DB. I know the PU game is best viewed coolly, and that we employ some degree of predictability when analyzing chick behavior. And I do admit f**king up, and I can argue even that I got what was coming.
On the other hand, I wonder: is a chick's character worth recognizing so that when she behaves rudely - even during a sarge - criticism is warranted and not irrelevant?
DeepBlue reply:
Sorry Richard, but I can’t fault her for being rude in this situation, because she started out by giving polite hints and excuses and it was only when you kept pushing for more that she finally resorted to rudeness.
I myself have experienced the receiving end of that. A girl I wasn't attracted to was pursuing me, and she had a way of making me feel like I either had to go along with whatever she wanted or else she’d be hurt or insulted, so to not hurt her feelings I resorted to hints and excuses.
Instead of taking a hint, she confronted each of my excuses trying to pick them apart, giving me a hard time about them. Finally one day when I was trying really hard to avoid her she countered by completely putting me on the spot. She said, “you know, I’m beginning to get the feeling that you don’t like me”!
What was I to say? If I said, “you’re right” she’d be really hurt. I felt myself about to say, “uh, it’s not that, it’s just...blah blah” and I caught myself. I realized if I said that, she’d immediately take it as a justification for continuing to aggressively pursue me and for continuing to ignore my hints that I wasn’t interested.
So I did the only thing I felt I could--I told her “you’re right, I don’t.” And I was finally free. She hated my guts for having rejected her, though in her mind she was hating me for having being “so rude”. Rude or not, she had demonstrated that she would not back off in response to anything *less* than a rude insensitive statement.
I’m not saying that the gym girl didn’t like you and that you should have pursued someone else. Not at all. The sad thing is that if you had handled it differently from the start then you might have slowly escalated her initial spark of interest into full blown desire.
Richard wrote:
I know, I know - guys on ASF will say, "tough, that's the way it is," and I mostly agree. But I wonder if that kind of thinking about chicks is sometimes a little too linear.
From one angle, I can be justly criticized for causing her unfriendliness. Yet, the fault was purely tactical, not because of my lack of integrity. The mistake was akin to using the wrong fork at the dinner table.
DeepBlue reply:
Richard, it is better not to rely on your own analysis of this situation, because your analysis is coming from the same place as the actions you chose to take at the time, and that whole way of seeing things led you down an unproductive path.
Richard wrote:
The funny thing is that by being unpleasant, she undid anything unique I had previously saw in her. She became just another b**ch, vindicating all the predictability I had just questioned above.
DeepBlue reply:
Don’t even waste your time on that train of thought. Under different circumstances the b**ch might’ve been a kitten. If you want to gain anything from this, you will do it only by being open to the possibility that the way you interacted with her gradually brought out her rejecting side, instead of her warm welcoming side.
It can be painful to realize that we must change something about ourselves, but it is also a wonderful opportunity for growth because it holds the promise of things being far better in the future. Putting the blame on her, by dismissing her as a “b**ch type” is appealing because it frees us of the need to change, but sadly it only holds the promise of repeating the same scenario again and again till it will seem as though all women were b**ches.
Richard wrote:
DB, I hope you understand. I'm a little bent out of shape right now, but I'll be fine. Well, anyway, this was a learning experience, and even the bad experiences are good ones.
DeepBlue reply:
Yes, it is a learning experience, and it’s just a matter of choosing the right lessons.
Take care,
DeepBlue
[This message has been edited by DeepBlue (edited 03-08-2002).]
[This message has been edited by DeepBlue (edited 03-08-2002).]
[This message has been edited by DeepBlue (edited 03-08-2002).]
Someone emailed me the other day asking for my thoughts about an interaction he had with a chick he found attractive in the gym that he goes to.
I wrote a very long response, because his story got me thinking about the whole concept of desire versus obligation, and how the art of seduction is really about how to cultivate a woman's attraction and her desire for you, it is not about trying to appeal to her sense of fair play, or feelings of obligation, or her wish to be percieved as a nice person, and so on.
So, for those who have the time and inclination, here I am posting his email to me, along with a lengthy discussion about the themes it brought up. I figured some of you out there might have some interesting and helpful insights to add.
Note, by the way, that I am posting his email here with his express consent, and I'm also referring to him by the pseudonym of "Richard" to protect his privacy.
First I will post his email, followed by my response. Oh, and because this is such a long post covering so much, feel free to requote & respond to just a small piece of it!
************
Hi DB,
I just had a fairly unpleasant C&B experience tonight, and I'm still trying to make sense of it. I'm not asking for or expecting answers. I just need to talk to someone, and I would appreciate your patience.
I had been sarging a chick who works out and teaches at my gym. I've known her for about two years, though not well. Not only was she hot-looking, but she had a cool, down-to-earth personality.
A few months ago, around the time I started learning SS, I started moving in on her. My sarge was drawn-out and very imperfect. Still, I patterned well enough so that it got a favorable response from her.
A little over a week ago, I went up to her, said outright she was cute and I wanted to get to know her better. She seemed torn but clearly open to the possibility of going out. She said she was uncomfortable with people at the gym knowing that she was going out with someone there.
I understood her concern, but I just couldn't find the words to reassure or comfort her (damn!), so I ended up saying nothing and just got her phone #. In the days after, we crossed paths but felt uneasy going forward.
I do admit I didn't convey comfort or reassurance in my demeanor, as I myself felt uncomfortable in the gym. This might have undid me in the end.
Goddamnit, DB, I was so goddamn close - THIS close - and I blew it!
I called her but couldn't reach her. Finally, at the gym I went up to her and asked to talk to her outside.
She kept stalling and said she had to go. I persisted and said, "well, let's make time then." She got mad that I persisted and finally left. Only later did I learn that this incident was the dealbreaker.
She called that night, and left a terse, unfriendly message saying we shouldn't go out. I called her 2 days later and she repeated her message.
I feel I have a good reason to be angry at her, even despite my imperfect sarge. I was respectful and direct, and I gave her no justification for her unfriendly behavior. She never acted like this before. I actually don't mind her rejection, but it's the *way* she rejected.
On ASF or SS we're so super-conscious of power dynamics between the sexes that it seems almost quaint to think a woman can and *should* show grace and kindness, even when they ditch a guy.
But maybe such acute awareness is justified. I thought about going up to her and saying, "you know, I don't mind rejection. But your unfriendly behavior was gratuitous."
But if I express such indignation, I lose because all she sees is a guy who didn't get what he wanted, and now he's just whining. The appeal solely to integrity is the tactic of the weak and defeated, and even if she did agree with me, she would feel only indifference or contempt.
I don't know, DB. I know the PU game is best viewed coolly, and that we employ some degree of predictability when analyzing chick behavior. And I do admit f**king up, and I can argue even that I got what was coming.
On the other hand, I wonder: is a chick's character worth recognizing so that when she behaves rudely - even during a sarge - criticism is warranted and not irrelevant?
I know, I know - guys on ASF will say, "tough, that's the way it is," and I mostly agree. But I wonder if that kind of thinking about chicks is sometimes a little too linear.
From one angle, I can be justly criticized for causing her unfriendliness. Yet, the fault was purely tactical, not because of my lack of integrity. The mistake was akin to using the wrong fork at the dinner table.
The funny thing is that by being unpleasant, she undid anything unique I had previously saw in her. She became just another b**ch, vindicating all the predictability I had just questioned above.
DB, I hope you understand. I'm a little bent out of shape right now, but I'll be fine. Well, anyway, this was a learning experience, and even the bad experiences are good ones.
Richard
******************
DeepBlue reply:
Hi Richard,
Before I get started, there is one thing you will need to keep in mind. Namely that the things you did, you did because they flow from how you see things, your logic about the world, and even though some of the things you did, did NOT get the results you wanted, a part of you is inevitably going to continue viewing what you said and did as being “right” and the things I’m going to suggest will to some extent seem “wrong” to you.
If you are going to benefit from my suggestions, you have to trust in the possibility that maybe the things I say are right for you, even if on a gut level they might at first seem like they can't possibly be right. Consider them, give them a chance, and you may find that they ultimately become a comfortable fit for you, while bringing you the outcomes you seek.
Richard wrote:
Hi DB,
I just had a fairly unpleasant C&B experience tonight, and I'm still trying to make sense of it. I'm not asking for or expecting answers. I just need to talk to someone, and I would appreciate your patience.
I had been sarging a chick who works out and teaches at my gym. I've known her for about two years, though not well. Not only was she hot-looking, but she had a cool, down-to-earth personality.
A few months ago, around the time I started learning SS, I started moving in on her. My sarge was drawn-out and very imperfect. Still, I patterned well enough so that it got a favorable response from her.
A little over a week ago, I went up to her, said outright she was cute and I wanted to get to know her better.
DeepBlue reply:
Sorry you had an unpleasant crash & burn, I guess that’s why they call it “burn”.
To begin with, I see two things that went wrong right off the bat.
First, it sounds like you presented her cuteness as the basis for your wanting to get to know her better. That probably reflects the honest truth about how you feel, but it is a RICHARD-centric approach. In other words, I see what is in it for you--you get to be with a cute girl. But what is in it for her? The fact that you find her cute? If she were unattractive or unpopular then it could mean a lot to her to be with a guy who thinks she is cute, just so that in his eyes she gets to be cute. But you said she is “hot” looking so that isn’t enough. She probably knows that a lot of guys find her attractive. So there needs to be something more drawing her to you.
It could be that you get into a discussion that is SO fascinating to her (let me emphasize the words: *to her*) or it could be that you are so sexy that she finds herself getting excited by talking to you, or it could be that you appear to be very popular and she is drawn to you for social status, etc.
The point is that your side of the equation is obvious--you are drawn to her because she looks hot. The other half of the equation is for you to be a guy whom SHE feels drawn to. That is the girl-centric half of the equation--her needs, her wants, her desires--that is the side of the equation you need to provide. It’s a bit like a salesman trying to sell a product.
How far is a salesman going to get talking about how much he’d love to have the customer’s money? He has to pitch what the product is going to do for the customer. And when YOU are the product, then there is the added complexity that pitching your own value must be done indirectly.
Why? Because desirable guys are accustomed to having women eagerly pursuing them. This means that any effort you put into making a woman desire you has to appear effortless and unintentional or it will backfire--any visible effort you put into trying to attract women is associated with unpopular guys who aren’t accustomed to having women chasing after them. (This concept is most difficult for those guys who are used to being highly rewarded for putting a lot of visible effort into solving problems at work.)
Richard wrote:
She seemed torn but clearly open to the possibility of going out.
DeepBlue reply:
Based on other things you described, I see two possibilities here:
One is that she was torn, but only because she wanted to say no, and at the same time she wanted to avoid hurting your feelings or create an uncomfortable situation--especially considering that she is likely to run into you again in the gym.
The other possibility is that she genuinely did feel a spark of interest at that point, and it conflicted with an ingrained resistance to overtures by gym members.
Richard wrote:
She said she was uncomfortable with people at the gym knowing that she was going out with someone there.
DeepBlue reply:
That sounds like a good description of an ingrained resistance to overtures by fellow gym members! Which brings me to the second problem with the “you’re cute, and I’d like to get to know you better” approach which is that it doesn’t distinguish you from the general mass of other gym members. On the contrary, it makes it easy for her to perceive you as “just another gym member” hitting on her, and that will trigger her general resistance to opening herself to overtures from that whole category of guys. In your approach, you need to find a way to come across as being “different from the rest”.
Richard wrote:
I understood her concern, but I just couldn't find the words to reassure or comfort her (damn!), so I ended up saying nothing and just got her phone #. In the days after, we crossed paths but felt uneasy going forward.
I do admit I didn't convey comfort or reassurance in my demeanor, as I myself felt uncomfortable in the gym. This might have undid me in the end.
Goddamnit, DB, I was so goddamn close - THIS close - and I blew it!
I called her but couldn't reach her. Finally, at the gym I went up to her and asked to talk to her outside.
DeepBlue reply:
Going up to her and asking her to talk outside may have made talking into a BIG deal. Sometimes that's ok, but since she’s already a bit leery about her involvement with you, the last thing she wants is to have that feeling amplified by making the meeting into a big deal. That’s why she kept stalling--it’s like you’re calling her into the Principals office for a “serious talk”. Bottom line is that you need to find a way to have those convos come up in a more casual way--at least until you get to the point where she is clearly eager to talk to you. At that point, it’s okay to make a bigger deal out of taking time to talk because she will like it.
Richard wrote:
She kept stalling and said she had to go. I persisted and said, "well, let's make time then."
DeepBlue reply:
Aaaack! You are bullying her! You probably don’t realize it, and don’t think you intend to bully her, but you are. Why should she make time???? You’re essentially saying that she “should” make time. Why? Just because YOU want it? You have shifted over to guiding her through feelings of *obligation* based on notions about what is fair, what she “should” or “shouldn’t” do, and so on.
That is not seduction. It is a form of pressure. You want to be guiding her actions by creatively managing her feelings of attraction and desire, not some sense of obligation or fair play.
Listen very carefully here, because this is the essence of everything I have to say here. She has to WANT to spend time with you. THAT has always got to be your goal. You’re getting caught up in pursuing the objective of spending time with her, and proceeding in an efficient goal oriented way you are losing sight of the essential goal which is to make her WANT to spend time with you.
The reason you’ve been doing this is because you’ve been focusing on your RICHARD-centric goal of being with a cute girl, and you have not been thinking enough in terms of what a woman wants, and the art of making HER want and desire being with you.
The rationale in your head might be, “ha, if I can get her to spend time with me then I’ll be able to work my magic on her and make her really desire me.” But that magic must begin from the moment she first sees you. You aren’t getting a date, then making her desire you. You are making her desire to talk to you, making her desire to give you her number, making her desire to get together with you and spend more time with you. These are essential intermediate level victories you must win in order to make genuine progress. Making her WANT you every step of the way is the difference between seduction and rape.
Instead you are jumping ahead. As a guy you are ready to have sex with that hot babe, right now! That has made you impatient with her needs, and has caused you to overlook the significance of these little victories--the cultivation of her desire, step by step--in the seduction process.
If you get her to WANT to give you her number, you should consider that a far greater victory than the actual fact of getting her number. Having a chick’s number doesn’t count for much. Having her eagerly awaiting your call is what counts. I have tens of thousands of chicks phone numbers--after all, they are all sitting there in the public phone book. The real achievement is making her want to give it to you, and making her long to have you call her.
If she did have any spark of interest in you, then your job is to nurture that little spark and fan it into flames of full blown desire. You do that by being a magnet. Pull not push. You have to operate through the force of *attraction* rather than the force of pressure, every step of the way.
You are relying heavily on “shoulds” in your expectations towards her:
I ask for her number so she should give it, I call her so she should want to talk, I ask her to get together so she should agree, etc.
The “should” expectation arises entirely from your own wants, not from hers. If you want to work with her reality you have to discard most of those shoulds. Not all, but most. If she says she’ll meet you at 3:00 sharp then she should be there at 3:00 or close to it.
But if you ask her to meet you, you will either succeed at making her want to meet you, or you won’t. Get rid of the idea that she “should” want to talk to you or get together with you just because you want to. That thinking comes from your own needs, your own urgency, and that whole perspective will reveal itself in your demeanor, making her feel pressured. The problem is that this approach actually works, in the short run, and that often leads guys into viewing it as the right way to proceed. You CAN force a yes from a chick that way, because she’ll give in to the pressure, but later she’ll look for a way to get out of it and you’ll end up dismissing her as yet another “flake.”
Rather than running after a girl, trying to get her to do things, strive to bring about in her a desire that draws her to you. Then reward her, by giving her opportunities to be with you. That way you are *attracting* her to you, rather than trying to push and prod her into various agreements which you then try to hold her to. The first path leads to success, the second path creates the illusion of progress, but is a dead end.
Whatever you do, always keep in mind that the goal is to get her to reach for you, emotionally speaking, every step of the way. Even the words “get her to reach” is risky here, because words like “make her,” “get her” and so on are frequently associated with the push approach, and the idea is to step back and learn to create a situation that makes her eagerly seek you.
If a guy isn’t accustomed to being pursued by women, this approach can seem very alien making it difficult to switch gears and then he stay’s stuck in the pursuer role. That isn’t all bad--the devoted pursuer type often appeals to women who want to get married--such women often seek guys who will pursue her ardently enough to jump through one hoop after another till finally he jumps through the hoop of marrying her.
But if your interest is mainly sexual, because you have a hard on for some hot babe, in that scenario you must make her pursue you. Sure, you still make the *overt* moves, and on the surface it may look like you are pursuing her, but that’s an illusion. What is really happening is that you are making her reach for you emotionally (just as her *looks* have drawn you towards her, emotionally) and then your overt moves come to her not as pressure, but as a reward for successfully pursuing you.
In your case, you as a man, feel a full blown desire for the gym chick because she looks hot, and that desire you feel is pressuring YOU. And, feeling yourself being pressured, you are passing that pressured feeling on to her, because you’d like her to feel the same urgent level of interest towards you that you feel towards her. Your desire hit you suddenly, and naturally you wish she’d hurry up and feel the exact same way towards you, PRONTO!
But to be a good Casanova, you must let go of that impatience. Incidentally, if you’ve ever read a “Penthouse Letter” that sort of fantasy about immediate gratification will interfere with real life success. That fantasy is misleading. It is very rare for a woman to go from being strangers to wanting to f**k in a matter of minutes, and when it happens it is usually in a special place, the chick is in an unusual state of mind--on top of the guy being both perceptive enough to recognize the girl’s smoldering feelings of lust, and also ballsy enough to act on it.
Yes, I realize you weren’t trying to get the gym girl to f**k you then and there, but your approach is almost as pressured as if you were. And the essence of “pressure” is that you are in the mindset of trying to nudge her into doing things she apparently doesn’t feel like doing, instead of focusing 100% on bringing out & working with her attraction and her desire so that she’ll eagerly WANT to do those things.
The process of making a woman want you is in some ways similar to training a dog to jump through a hoop. But instead of making the woman jump, you are making her reach for you emotionally, inside.
You do what you can to get that first little spark of desire and then when she reaches for you, you *reward* that in some small way. With kino, or a flattering remark, or a big smile. But then you have to take a small step back, emotionally, and wait for her to emotionally reach out a little bit more, before you reward her again. It’s like a dance. And it takes some patience. To cultivate feelings of *longing* in her, you must periodically give her room to indulge in feelings of longing.
Guys who feel pressured by their own sex drive, or by the insecure fear that the girl may not reciprocate with similar interest have a tendency to run after a woman, to crowd her, trying to *make* her agree to things and it is counterproductive. It fails to make her desire him so the approach is doomed from the start. That is the sort of approach that always leads to some guy complaining about how a woman agreed to something, but then she rudely backed out or “flaked”.
Richard wrote:
She got mad that I persisted and finally left. Only later did I learn that this incident was the dealbreaker.
DeepBlue reply:
Because you were singlemindedly focusing on what YOU want, based on a RICHARD-centric view, and pushing for that as though her interest in you were irrelevant, when you should have been gradually developing her initial spark of interest into something greater through repeated steps of withdrawing slightly, then rewarding her when she takes a step towards pursuing you.
Richard wrote:
She called that night, and left a terse, unfriendly message saying we shouldn't go out. I called her 2 days later and she repeated her message.
DeepBlue reply:
The sequence you initiated here is simple:
Each time you pushed, she pulls back.
She pulls back, you pushed even more.
You push even more, she pulls back even more.
Instead of drawing out her impulse to pursue you by being the one to pull back now and then, you did the opposite. You cultivated her impulse to push you away, by pursuing her whenever she pulled back.
Building attraction is a bit like a tennis rally. You hit the ball to her, then wait for her to hit it back. If she isn’t hitting it back fast enough for you, you can’t just keep on hitting more balls to her. You must get a back and forth rally going.
Richard wrote:
I feel I have a good reason to be angry at her, even despite my imperfect sarge. I was respectful and direct, and I gave her no justification for her unfriendly behavior. She never acted like this before I actually don't mind her rejection, but it's the *way* she rejected.
DeepBlue reply:
I see this often. When a guy becomes too focused on his own needs, and his objective of having a girl give him a phone number, or having her agree to spend time with him, it becomes too easy for him to overlook the essential step of getting the girl to WANT these things. Instead, it rapidly deteriorates into a push, push interaction every step of the way, asking for her number, asking for her to go outside, asking for her to agree to something. You need to jettison that viewpoint entirely.
Women will tend to go along with those little nudges, because they fear confrontations, but I guarantee they will be dropping hints the whole time that they don’t feel interested. They will make excuses, they will stall, they will exhibit a bored look on their face or even act a little rude.
Unfortunately, some guys become so accustomed to pushing for what they want, instead of attracting the woman into seeking him, that they keep pushing, and when the woman starts dropping even more blatant hints that she isn’t interested the pressure-oriented guy is liable to confront her about how she is being rude or unfriendly or whatever. Since chicks usually try to avoid confrontations, she may say that she is sorry and politely agree to something, but that is just more illusory success because it fails to accomplish the all important step of making her WANT the things she is agreeing to.
So...the fact that you were “respectful and direct” is not relevant from the standpoint of seduction. She doesn’t owe you her number or a date or sex, just because you are respectful and direct. Nothing short of arousing her interest and her desire so that SHE is seeking to be with you will do.
Richard wrote:
On ASF or SS we're so super-conscious of power dynamics between the sexes that it seems almost quaint to think a woman can and *should* show grace and kindness, even when they ditch a guy.
But maybe such acute awareness is justified. I thought about going up to her and saying, "you know, I don't mind rejection. But your unfriendly behavior was gratuitous."
DeepBlue reply:
As far as her owing you politeness is concerned, it sounds like she was polite at first and she hinted many times that she wasn’t interested, and it is only because you continued pursuing her that she finally blew up about it.
Let me say again that women are often afraid of confrontation. If you ask her for something point blank, especially in the place where she works, then she is not misleading you by giving you her number, she is protecting herself. I often hear guys complain that a woman “should be up front about what she wants and not agree to something if she isn’t interested.” This notion--that women “should” be unafraid of confrontation--is nothing more than a rationalization that some guys lean on to excuse their use of pressure with women. You are far better off giving up that approach entirely and learning the dance of attraction, because the pressure approach is a *dead end*.
The pressure approach--leading a woman through various should’s and feelings of obligation brings only illusory progress at best.
It is NOT a form of genuine progress, seduction-wise, to get a woman’s number or get her to agree to anything if you aren’t also making her WANT those things every step of the way.
If a chick starts looking bored, or giving excuses and stalling or acts a bit rude and unfriendly, it usually means you have been pursuing her too hard, and you need to re-establish the dynamic of letting her pursue you.
Always remember that your goal is to have her desiring you--not to have her begrudgingly agreeing to things. Don’t suggest anything without first whetting her appetite for it. And as much as possible, get her to suggest the thing you want as though it was her idea.
Richard wrote:
But if I express such indignation, I lose because all she sees is a guy who didn't get what he wanted, and now he's just whining. The appeal solely to integrity is the tactic of the weak and defeated, and even if she did agree with me, she would feel only indifference or contempt.
DeepBlue reply:
Again, you didn’t pay proper attention to making her WANT things every step of the way, and once you asked her out, from that point forward everything you got from her was coerced (from a woman’s non-confrontational point of view) rather than arising from her feelings of attraction and desire towards you--feelings which you must bring out in her.
Richard wrote:
I don't know, DB. I know the PU game is best viewed coolly, and that we employ some degree of predictability when analyzing chick behavior. And I do admit f**king up, and I can argue even that I got what was coming.
On the other hand, I wonder: is a chick's character worth recognizing so that when she behaves rudely - even during a sarge - criticism is warranted and not irrelevant?
DeepBlue reply:
Sorry Richard, but I can’t fault her for being rude in this situation, because she started out by giving polite hints and excuses and it was only when you kept pushing for more that she finally resorted to rudeness.
I myself have experienced the receiving end of that. A girl I wasn't attracted to was pursuing me, and she had a way of making me feel like I either had to go along with whatever she wanted or else she’d be hurt or insulted, so to not hurt her feelings I resorted to hints and excuses.
Instead of taking a hint, she confronted each of my excuses trying to pick them apart, giving me a hard time about them. Finally one day when I was trying really hard to avoid her she countered by completely putting me on the spot. She said, “you know, I’m beginning to get the feeling that you don’t like me”!
What was I to say? If I said, “you’re right” she’d be really hurt. I felt myself about to say, “uh, it’s not that, it’s just...blah blah” and I caught myself. I realized if I said that, she’d immediately take it as a justification for continuing to aggressively pursue me and for continuing to ignore my hints that I wasn’t interested.
So I did the only thing I felt I could--I told her “you’re right, I don’t.” And I was finally free. She hated my guts for having rejected her, though in her mind she was hating me for having being “so rude”. Rude or not, she had demonstrated that she would not back off in response to anything *less* than a rude insensitive statement.
I’m not saying that the gym girl didn’t like you and that you should have pursued someone else. Not at all. The sad thing is that if you had handled it differently from the start then you might have slowly escalated her initial spark of interest into full blown desire.
Richard wrote:
I know, I know - guys on ASF will say, "tough, that's the way it is," and I mostly agree. But I wonder if that kind of thinking about chicks is sometimes a little too linear.
From one angle, I can be justly criticized for causing her unfriendliness. Yet, the fault was purely tactical, not because of my lack of integrity. The mistake was akin to using the wrong fork at the dinner table.
DeepBlue reply:
Richard, it is better not to rely on your own analysis of this situation, because your analysis is coming from the same place as the actions you chose to take at the time, and that whole way of seeing things led you down an unproductive path.
Richard wrote:
The funny thing is that by being unpleasant, she undid anything unique I had previously saw in her. She became just another b**ch, vindicating all the predictability I had just questioned above.
DeepBlue reply:
Don’t even waste your time on that train of thought. Under different circumstances the b**ch might’ve been a kitten. If you want to gain anything from this, you will do it only by being open to the possibility that the way you interacted with her gradually brought out her rejecting side, instead of her warm welcoming side.
It can be painful to realize that we must change something about ourselves, but it is also a wonderful opportunity for growth because it holds the promise of things being far better in the future. Putting the blame on her, by dismissing her as a “b**ch type” is appealing because it frees us of the need to change, but sadly it only holds the promise of repeating the same scenario again and again till it will seem as though all women were b**ches.
Richard wrote:
DB, I hope you understand. I'm a little bent out of shape right now, but I'll be fine. Well, anyway, this was a learning experience, and even the bad experiences are good ones.
DeepBlue reply:
Yes, it is a learning experience, and it’s just a matter of choosing the right lessons.
Take care,
DeepBlue
[This message has been edited by DeepBlue (edited 03-08-2002).]
[This message has been edited by DeepBlue (edited 03-08-2002).]
[This message has been edited by DeepBlue (edited 03-08-2002).]
