Women & Sex

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OL61JreooRk

One of the single most annoying tropes I read / hear from men (more so than women) is the "Women are just as / more sexual than men" canard. Nothing stops me in my tracks more abruptly than reading this line parroted back in some form by a self-effacing white knight. This is a VERY effective feminine social convention, even internalized and spouted back by the likes of more than a few infamous PUAs.

SQUIRRELS hit me with this today:

Women are more sexual than men, but they are repressed due to a lack of "trust".

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Patently false. Men produce 17 times the amount of testosterone a woman does. It is a biological impossibility for a woman to want sex as much as, or as often as men. Trust me, when a woman says, "I don't understand why sex is so important to guys" she's speaking the literal truth. No woman will ever experience 17 times the amount of her own testosterone levels (barring steroids). Women's sexual desire is cyclical. Even at the peak of her menstrual cycle, when she's at her horniest, she'll never experience what men do 24 hours a day.

No self-interested Man is ever going to be encouraged to refute the idea that women are equally preoccupied with, equally aroused as, or equally desirous of sex as men are. We love the fantasy that women are secretly yearning for sex with us, if only society were more open and accepting of feminine sexuality. Yet in the same breath we'll hear about how slutty and aggressive women have become in western society by the same guys. It's ironic, but it gives guys hope that if they can find the secret formula to unleashing the sexual beast within every woman he'll find this insatiable she-devil to pair off with monogamously. WTF? If women were men's sexual equals, why would they not be given to the same drives that conflict with monogamy?

And women of course love to encourage and reinforce this social convention because it sounds like empowerment in the face of patriarchal sexual oppression (yes, we'd be more sexual if you'd only allow us to you evil men), while at the same time tacitly acknowledging that turns men into white knight sympathizers of the cause (i.e. feminine entitlement and primacy).

delete post.

So testosterone is the primary precursor of sex-drive in BOTH sexes??

I don't buy it.

samspade said:

I think the divorce rate owes as much to hypergamy as it does to sex drive on the part of females.

As for single mothers, that's a tough metric to use, since it only takes one time to knock a girl up. A single woman with a kid wasn't necessarily an incorrigible sex fiend before it happened.

I could be wrong though.

**EDIT*** I think I quotes something you removed, so it's moot.

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Truth is, I can think of several examples in my own experience that back up what Rollo's saying to a "T". I can think of several others that go directly against it. So I'm not sure what to make of what he's saying...I need to think about it some more, but I suspect he may be over-simplifying.

I don't think you can generalize and say that "sexuality" manifests in the same way in women as it does in men. True, women aren't testosteronized and they don't go out looking to "f*ck" something like men do. But they are looking to "be f*cked".

The motherhood instinct is primary in women...and I think that is a lot of the reason that they don't engage in the same kinds of sexual behaviors as men...because the sex drive is subservient to the motherhood instinct. (if I'm right, this could also explain the old adage that "women become more sexual in their 30s"...once child-rearing is taken care of, the woman's sex-drive no longer needs to serve the motherhood instinct)

Just my way of looking at it. I think humans are too complicated to reduce human sexuality of both genders down to a testosterone count. What Rollo said has merit, though, depending on your perspective.

Even the idea of "testosterone" has gained "wives-tale" status in today's society. Women love to use the word "testosterone" as a chiding rebuke to men's sexual behavior. "Oh he's just that way because of testosterone". To suggest that the sexual behavior of men is completely animal and the result of an undeveloped capacity for higher reason. Which, of course, is ridiculous.

You want an example of this, turn on "Spike TV". Touted as "programming for men", most of it is based on the idea that all men are animals driven by testosterone and without capability of anything beyond that. It's crap.

I laugh when I hear "men" talk about how they can't live without sex. Please.

How do we explain women those who will screw many men in a day or those with high sex drives is that in the group of women with a bit more testostrone in their system?

Powerlifter

Powerlifter said:

How do we explain women those who will screw many men in a day or those with high sex drives...

Powerlifter

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Mental illness and sexual abuse comes to mind.

This makes no sense. Why would a woman's sexual peak be the opposite of her child conceiving and bearing peak?

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It could be because women are most attractive during their peak child bearing years (when they're young). That's when they're going to get the most male attention. Perhaps to compensate for losing some of their physical attractiveness when they get older, they become more interested in seeking out sexual encounters. A woman can still have a baby in her early fourties.

Truth is, I can think of several examples in my own experience that back up what Rollo's saying to a "T". I can think of several others that go directly against it.

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Same here. In my experience, sex drives varies quite a bit from individual to individual. Some women are not all that driven to it. But I have known a lot of women who had very large sexual appetites. I agree that there is probably more at work than testosterone when it comes to sexuality in humans.

As much as I may agree with the OP, and I don't agree with all of it (for example, testosterone is but one of MANY factors controlling libido levels in men and women), I hardly see the value in ingraining in our men here and DJs in training that, "Women aren't (as) interested in sex". I admit I'm no Einstein, but I hardly see how that belief is empowering.

I believe one of the toughest things to being DJ is the plain basics.... just having the gall to walk up to a woman, cold approach if need be, and doing your thing. I hardly see how going into it with the mindset that they're already not (as) interested is helping the matter.

My suggestion? Even if it is true, do your game a favor, and believe that they want you like crazy and if they don't, then they're weird and strange and move on to the next sex-crazed woman.

Save the truisms that hurt your game for the biologist or psychologist who has to publish a paper to get his or her degree. Sometimes, ignorance really is bliss and it may even get you laid.

squirrels said:

Truth is, I can think of several examples in my own experience that back up what Rollo's saying to a "T". I can think of several others that go directly against it. So I'm not sure what to make of what he's saying...I need to think about it some more, but I suspect he may be over-simplifying.

I don't think you can generalize and say that "sexuality" manifests in the same way in women as it does in men. True, women aren't testosteronized and they don't go out looking to "f*ck" something like men do. But they are looking to "be f*cked".

The motherhood instinct is primary in women...and I think that is a lot of the reason that they don't engage in the same kinds of sexual behaviors as men...because the sex drive is subservient to the motherhood instinct. (if I'm right, this could also explain the old adage that "women become more sexual in their 30s"...once child-rearing is taken care of, the woman's sex-drive no longer needs to serve the motherhood instinct)


Just my way of looking at it. I think humans are too complicated to reduce human sexuality of both genders down to a testosterone count. What Rollo said has merit, though, depending on your perspective.

Even the idea of "testosterone" has gained "wives-tale" status in today's society. Women love to use the word "testosterone" as a chiding rebuke to men's sexual behavior. "Oh he's just that way because of testosterone". To suggest that the sexual behavior of men is completely animal and the result of an undeveloped capacity for higher reason. Which, of course, is ridiculous.

You want an example of this, turn on "Spike TV". Touted as "programming for men", most of it is based on the idea that all men are animals driven by testosterone and without capability of anything beyond that. It's crap.

I laugh when I hear "men" talk about how they can't live without sex. Please.

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I swear the more the I read articles on this site the more I start to see men, at least the men here as animals that will do almost anything just to fvck a woman. Everything seems to revolve around fvcking the next woman like we have nothing else to look forward to.
As for what Rollo said. I would in part agree that women don't want sex just as much as guys do, if they do they it usually varies from time to time. Women's interest in sex is different from a man's. I don't agree that testostorone controls everything. There are days when I feel horny and days when I don't. When I'm really busy I tend not to feel that way. On the contrary when I'm bored then I do. I don't see a hot woman walk by and my soldier stands at attention at that moment. Maybe later and then I start wondering why I'm feel horny without even thinking about it (my guess is that it might have had something to do with what I had seen earlier.)

You're wrong. It's different for different women, as I'm sure it is with different guys. I have a high libido, maybe higher than normal when I chat to my friends about theirs. The last time I didn't feel horny at all within a whole week was when I took the emergency pill...I just felt nothing. Not even a flutter of excitement or arousal. Just flat. And it kind of made me appreciate that maybe feeling sexually frustrated is better than just feeling flat, even if you don't have a partner to relieve the sexual frustration with. But I digress.

Also, on the "women's sexual peak at 30/40/etc" I believe that's less to do with hormones, and more to do with confidence and experience and learning about your body, being comfortable in your body and in the bedroom. That's why the ages is changing/decreasing, because women are more open about sex than they used to be and much more open to masturbation, they will peak quicker because they are getting confident quicker and learning to orgasm at earlier ages etc. And it doesn't just stop at learning to orgasm, there's more and more! I've always taken 'sexual peak' to mean more than just being horny a lot and stuff, I've been masturbating for about 5 or 6 years and I'm still learning more and more about my body and my arousal and stuff, and that's not even with sex so imagine how it can develop when I'm in a relationship and getting lots of sex? It's quite exciting knowing you're not at your peak and there's more to come.

And another point picking on what someone/the OP mentioned, I don't see what monogamy/infidelity has to do with libido...sure I can see how you'd think it would make infidelity more likely if it means you find it hard to say no but personally I don't think it's an excuse. You can have a high libido and have eyes for one person, you can have a high libido, have eyes for many people but still have the self-discipline to decline an offer. Loyalty is only affected by your libido if you choose it to be.

Rollo Tomassi said:

Patently false. Men produce 17 times the amount of testosterone a woman does. It is a biological impossibility for a woman to want sex as much as, or as often as men. Trust me, when a woman says, "I don't understand why sex is so important to guys" she's speaking the literal truth. No woman will ever experience 17 times the amount of her own testosterone levels (barring steroids). Women's sexual desire is cyclical. Even at the peak of her menstrual cycle, when she's at her horniest, she'll never experience what men do 24 hours a day.

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You are a very wise man to realize that the *main* determinant of sex drive is the level of testosterone in an individual, this applies to both male and females.

Unlike some of you, I am no expert on women's anatomy, sex drive, or psychology (I say that tongue in cheek). However I will address a possibility of why women claim their libidos are stronger in their 30s and now 40.

Women in their 20s and 30s are having children. So, if a woman, married or not, has 3 kids in her 20s that means that 1/2 of that decade she is either pregnant or postpartum, nursing, etc.

So now she finds herself in her 30s, she's done having babies and she's discovering or re-discovering her libido. And by this theory the reason the age has increased to 40 is that women are having children later, so the average woman who was done having kids in her 20s is now having them in her 30s, and partying in her 40s.

Just a theory but it makes sense.

azanon said:

As much as I may agree with the OP, and I don't agree with all of it (for example, testosterone is but one of MANY factors controlling libido levels in men and women), I hardly see the value in ingraining in our men here and DJs in training that, "Women aren't (as) interested in sex". I admit I'm no Einstein, but I hardly see how that belief is empowering.

I believe one of the toughest things to being DJ is the plain basics.... just having the gall to walk up to a woman, cold approach if need be, and doing your thing. I hardly see how going into it with the mindset that they're already not (as) interested is helping the matter.

My suggestion? Even if it is true, do your game a favor, and believe that they want you like crazy and if they don't, then they're weird and strange and move on to the next sex-crazed woman.

Save the truisms that hurt your game for the biologist or psychologist who has to publish a paper to get his or her degree. Sometimes, ignorance really is bliss and it may even get you laid.

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I think the older you get the less important sex becomes? I lost my viriginity at 12 and have been in pusuit of the golden ***** from then on (never found one see my sig).Heres what i did find however and this is just my opinoin?Some women just have a higher sex drive than others and the slutter ones have the highest and these are the women that im attracted to and they seem to sense the same thing in me.Call it a curse or a blessing but honestly this has always been the way its been period !! I have always had natural game and when i run accrss these women i simply call them on there flirting and tell them to prove it and or stop being a dic tease??? I think these womens upbringing causes this and haveing slutty moms just reinforces it.Since i have gotten older i now realized that i not only want sex but also want someone who im compatible with intelllectually and i find this to be a huge challange? I wanted sex daily in my teens then i wanted it about every 3 days in my 20s and 30s and now i would be happy with sex a couple times a week since i turned 40 anyone else agree with this ?How about you guys in ur 50s??

Dear Rollo,
I absolutely agree with you....So PowerLifter,"How do we explain women those who will screw many men in a day",Well an obvious group that spring to mind are the"Girls of the village"these lovely Ladies toss off maybe twenty tricks a week,no worries,Why?...because there's something in it for them...For others it can be Marks at Uni,security in their job,status a whole host of reasons....In my own case I need Svx on a daily basis,and my Lady knows I can easily find it elsewhere so she obliges,sometimes she gets so bored with the whole business that she will read her Chinese Newspaper,or even eat an apple,while I am on the job.....that's when I back away and go visiting....In my age group there are many desperately lonely Ladies,the highlight of whose life is a cup of coffee and slice of cake in some upmarket cafe,an Indian takeaway and a bunch of flowers and they are yours for the plucking.....Iqqi may also have a point,her suggestion that "Mental illness and sexual abuse comes to mind."could have a bearing,however I have only found that such damage turns them off....When I was at school we had a very quiet girl of whom you might say "butter would not melt in her mouth"....Well one of the DJ's in our group rescued her dog from a Storm-water sump,seduced her and within months she was turning it on for the whole Football team,she became my shared mistress later in life,and I can assure you all,she was incapable of an orgasm,work that one out!...So yeah Squirrels is right,testosterone is not the sole predictor of a Womens sexuality.

i agree with this post. Women are not as sexual as men, they can go years without sex, but if they have a craving, are turned on, or just horny at one single moment, they are really really horny. More so then men. But this is rare. I am like a walking erection. I get horny at everything. The wind can blow and midgets can do pull ups on my divk. I'm a sex machine. This happened to me at 9 yrs of age and has not stopped at all at 34. Highly doubt any woman feels the same as I do EVERY MOMENT, EVERY DAY, for 25 yrs. I believe once a woman is turned on or craving, it is more intense. But for anyone to say, women feel the same about sex as men, is ignorant.

My experience is that women are very sensitive to how people view them, Especially us males AFTER sex. How many of you guys have fvcked a girl and afterwards said to yourself, hmm I didn't like this, I didn't like that, her t!ts were too saggy, pvssy big, stretch marks, fat rolls, a mole or wart, a scar (knifed?), bad breath, stank pvssy, birthmark?, etc. and just up and left her and NEVER called her again, or right after like they expect you to. Women Fear your not liking their body and just cvming and dumping them because of it.

They Want you to stick around. Soooo many of them have been burned by guys like you and me who just said, "I've inspected her, her every orifice, from head to toe, and I think I'll just Move On..." Women feel Used all the time. They seek commitment because they do not want to feel like sh!t and worthless. This is why they won't give of the poonani easily.

But here's the fvcking problem...How are with well-meaning guys ever going to know if we're willing to commit if we haven't had sex with them to FIND OUT if she's a keeper i.e. someone to sacrifice for?

I think that the problem may be us guys NOT breaking off from a girl seamlessly after sex. We tend to just fvck em and run. I know I do, I'm guilty as charged.

I've only fvcked 2 in the last month that I'd be willing to commit another week of my time to. I could see either one on Saturday. I can't make up my mind. One is a great kisser, **** sucker, and lay, just flat-out horny. The other is just cute and young, one that I would have to take TIME to train. She could have many (not any) guys. She's really a downer. She's always accusing me of judging her body, which is absolutely not the case. She has everything I want! I bet she gets fat when she gets older though only being 4'11."

iqqi said:

Mental illness and sexual abuse comes to mind.

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You beat me to it, Iqqi. I think we have had this discussion before and my idea was that sex drive in many women is more psychological than it is chemical. I would include parental neglect and abandonment along with outright mental illness and past sexual abuse. Girls with daddy issues are the ones who will do what the other girls won't.

And I don't deny the importance of brain chemicals. I think it runs about 50/50 with any given woman whether it will she will be most influenced by psychology or hormones.

I hardly see the value in ingraining in our men here and DJs in training that, "Women aren't (as) interested in sex".

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I would say that generally speaking overall men are more interested in sex. But that is not the same as saying women are not interested, many of them are very, very keenly interested. And not just the slvtty ones.

I swear the more the I read articles on this site the more I start to see men, at least the men here as animals that will do almost anything just to fvck a woman. Everything seems to revolve around fvcking the next woman like we have nothing else to look forward to.

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Agreed. I do believe there are some people on this forum (and some people I know in real life) that actually think this way. Sex is great. But there is definitely more to life.

Also, on the "women's sexual peak at 30/40/etc" I believe that's less to do with hormones, and more to do with confidence and experience and learning about your body, being comfortable in your body and in the bedroom

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Good point, I think that probably has something to do with it as well.
And some girls are just late starters.

Oy Vey, this is an old argument that has been put to bed many years ago with solid, scientific evidence.

I refer you to:

Why men don't listen, and women can't read maps

as well as

The Red Queen

Despite your wishes/hopes/desires that women are as horny as men, it just ain't so.

women's lack of horniness is a screen to filter out the weak men, so she is only boned by alpha gene carrying motherfukkers. (in general, from the vantage point of evolution. I'm not talking about that bar wh0re you saw last weekend).

Statistics indicate (see references above) women's sexual interest peaks around estrus, and declines thereafter, as well as generally being seasonally dependent. This allows children to be born in the spring when food is plentiful, and the little dude has a chance to grow a bit before the next winter. Again, this is broadly speaking after millions of years of evolution.

Once again, women's sexual desire peaks once a month (or so) and the height of each peak varies throughout the year, designed to peak so the kid is born at the best time, seasonally.

Another bit of evidence that men are always horny, and women rarely are, is that gay men fukk like rabbits, and lesbian women rarely fukk at all. (I believe this is discussed in that first book, but I'm not sure. It's been a while since I read it.)

But memes, and how memes spread have absolutely nothing to do with the truth. And the meme of women loving sex as much as men is strong for the following reasons:

1) men want to believe it because it gives them hope
2) men want to believe it because it makes "logical" sense
3) men want to believe it because it is taught to the by PUA gurus
4) men want to believe it because it makes them feel "enlightened" (gender equality and all that)
5) men want to believe it so they think they really can find a girl like that one in the porno

6) women want to present it as true because it makes them more desirable


Bottom line, men were designed to be good to go, AT ALL TIMES because estrus of the human animal is hidden, so they never knew when the woman was ready.

Women were designed to be attractive to men ALL THE TIME, so that when SHE was good to go, she could pick a suitable father from all the drooling cavemen around her.

Sorry boys, that's the breaks. No magic formula. Only become as alpha as you can, and always be out trolling for young ladies in estrus. (just be sure to wear protection).

See? The secret is not how to make HER horny, or unlock HER magic box, the secret is to have the power to find a different HER whenever you want.

As much as I appreciate the elaboration and discussion developing, my initial point was in debunking the myth that "women are just as / more sexual than men." They are not, and when you look at this trope with a critical, pragmatic POV you can see it for the social convention is truly is. Just a rudimentary knowledge of female biology is all that's needed to deconstruct the myth.

I also understand that female sexuality functions differently than male sexuality, but this only reinforces my point. Women's sexuality is cyclic, not only on a monthly schedule, but also over periods of a lifetime (menopause, and peak fertility for instance). There are periods over a month and a lifetime where sexual desire waxes and wanes, (healthy) men's stays relatively constant from puberty. Women are slower to arouse, they tend to need more than just visual stimulation, and there is definitely a psychological element (they need a fantasy) necessary. Men only need visual stimulation and minimal feedback to get aroused (i.e. porn).

Yes, testosterone is the primary element in sexual arousal. The first thing female body builders report after steroid use is a dramatic increase in libido, and it's no shock that post-menopausal hormone therapies use testosterone to boost women's flagging libidos too. When women are at the peaks of their menstrual cycles, low and behold they experience a sharp spike in testosterone levels in order to facilitate pregnancy and then it gets flushed out during menstruation. You can debate about how best to get a woman's testosterone flowing, but it's testosterone that's needed to prompt a sexual response. Not so much for men. Even the most deficient men have 12 to 17 times the testosterone women experience at their menstrual peak. Thus the deeper voices, muscle mass, facial hair, etc. and much greater sexual proclivity.

Now the real question is, why would such a popular myth be such a useful social convention? Think about it. It sexualizes women, while not making them outright sluts. They can avoid the stigma of promiscuity while presenting the fantasy that they are secretly "more sexual" than they are "allowed" to be, if only they could meet a man qualified enough to bring this out in them. It's a sexual selection convention. The fantasy is that women are really these wolves in sheep's clothing for the right guy.