Maybe a helpful post for minorities - I know it helped me

FreeStyleZ

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I really don't take the time to post or read on the game forums too much these days but kind of felt as though this was something I wanted to post about just in case it might help some guys out there who may be working on game, but feel as though their results aren't matching their improvements in skill they are making. I've gamed in various different countries around the world.... with women from all different types of backgrounds as well as met/helped some guys from the community as well. This was an issue that I noticed with other minorities in game that really helped improve ALL their results.

I started like most people out there... coming from a low point in life wanting to work on my skills with women or just socially in general and improve as a person. I was making lots of progress going out probably 5-6 nights a week, seriously committed to getting this area of my life handled. I had taken various workshops with different companies that I felt were instrumental in getting me on the right track and definitely VERY valuable from just a life standpoint in general, as well as my game. I felt myself getting much better skill wise with women and was very pleased with how things were coming along but it felt as though I hit somewhat of a wall in terms of the results I was getting. I was able to get phone #s no problem, make outs no problem, day 2s much less frequently, and a full close much less frequently if ever. I figured there had to be something wrong with my game, some kind of leak in my personality that I simply needed to work on since that's what the game had taught me, that the game is the game is the game and if something went wrong it's in your control to fix it. Well that was true for sure, but the answer I ended up finding to help solve my issue wasn't really written about extensively in the community, at least that i'd seen anyway, or if it was the extent to how big of an impact it would have on your results was not stressed in any meaningful way to get my attention.

Basically, I was a black guy that was gaming/practicing/sarging in venues with white girls that basically were not very much into black guys. Yes, I know there are white girls that love black guys, I've hooked up with those not a problem, but the standard white girl that I was trying to pick up was not into a black guy the same way in which she's into another white guy. I mean it's totally understandable, there's added social pressures on her from family/friends for dating outside her race even if unspoken, even if there isn't she might not feel comftorable with it, or a myriad of other reasons that really just go deep into some of the more complex racial/social views that exist in our society. Now for most of the gurus/coaches out there, they probably don't have any experience dealing with this issue since the majority of them are white and go after white girls, and even if they don't other races don't really have the same social risks of dating a white guy as they would from dating a black guy with some of the negative stereotypes we have in general. I really hate playing the "race card" and certainly avoid it in most of my everyday life, but not acknowledging it as having an effect on the results I was getting with women is simply not making the best decision as far as what's going to get me what I want.

Yes I was able to get some results here and there with white girls but not more than white friends of mine who were asking ME for advice on how to game, which further confused me because I had noticeably more game than them. I also spent a lot of time examining this belief of mine that I was developing because I hated the idea of just sitting back and placing all the blame in my lack of results on race. So that's how I ended up gaming in other countries and other races of girls. When I went to some of these countries I had no problem getting day2s, lays, or multiple girlfriends... and it basically felt like the skills I had been honing elsewhere was getting me much better results just by changing where I was playing the game. I also experimented with just gaming solely black girls even though I'm not as into them, JUST to further experiment around and try to find out what it was. The disparity between the results I was getting in general was just incredible. The same sticking points I ran into with girls outside of my race were MUCH less prevalent with girls of the same race as me, or girls in antoher country that was more accepting socially of interracial dating. I even ran online tests using two guys who were pretty much identical in terms of looks and profile, but one was black and one was white and would send the same message with a controlled sample size on both. Again, the difference in results was pretty amazing, and this is an experiemnt you could do on your own.

Again, this isn't saying at all that it's impossible to like amazingly hard to get a white girl if you are black (one that doesn't already like black guys on her own), but it's just saying that the results you are going to get will NOT match your white counter part or the results you would get if you were in your own 'market' so to say. It's kind of like the idea of playing a basketball game but starting the game already down 50 points. You CAN win, you just have to be THAT much better than the other team and become THAT much more skilled than the team you're playing in order to overcome that deficit in points. It can be done with hard work and really finetuning your skills but even then it will not be consistent winnings because some of the time that team will have a bigger initial lead than 50 (when a girl has more social pressures on her or insecurities with dating outside her race than others). Meanwhile another team that just starts off with a score of 0-0 that has the same skill as you is going to win more times overall than you. And yeah, even the times you don't "win" the game, you're still scoring points or sometimes coming close... in the form of getting make outs, #s, getting back to the girls place, LMR, etc.

I mean this post isn't to say white girls are racist BY ANY MEANS AT ALL (just figured i'd state that since I don't even want this to steer that direction), because it's perfectly natural to have your preference in guys, the same way we have our preference in women, some women just like a guy of their own race more than outside of that, perfectly fine. Just being observant because being oblivious would have had me constantly wondering for another 2 years why my results aren't where I want them to be.

Some of you minorities may have already figured this out and that's cool, silly me right? But from what I had read online in all the resources I'd seen and heard was that looks didn't matter, race didn't matter, nothing mattered but game. The most potent resources I had found usually came from Tyler Durden and he'd constantly make comments like "Put me in anyone of yalls body's and I will pull, I WILL", well yeah he'd pull in my body too but not nearly with the same regularity or consistency he does with his own market. I pull in my body as well.

The reason I decided to post this though was because there are a bunch of guys i've met through game that are minorities practicing their game in mostly white venues completely confused as to why they don't get the same results as some of their friends or get the results they feel their skill should dictate. I know for myself, I felt as though my game was really coming along and most of the skills mentioned in game I could do and pretty damn well, but my full closing rates were considerably low. Then as soon as I changed my target market my results pretty much changed instantaneously. Obviously in the USA if I had some kind of venue where I could game non-black girls that just specifically liked black guys I'd have been able to have that realization there as well but it just doesn't really exist. So i'd randomly get girls here and there that liked black guys and i'd get results, whereas gaming in a market where all the girls are open to you basically felt like playing the game from 0-0 for once.
 

GuanYu

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This is a solid post and quite accurate. A lot of my friends are black guys and I'd label them as players and macks for sure (no homo). However, in my area, it's full of your typical hot, "like omg", white college girls. These are definitely without a doubt the hardest girls for them to pull (I'd assume stuck up exec bvtches would be hard too.)

Don't get me wrong, they've pulled some drunken white girls, but not nearly as many as they should with their game. It's almost like the only ones they get are the curious hoes that want to discover for themselves if the myth is true, but they are far and few between.
 

Jitterbug

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Good post, man.

A hunter must choose the forest suitable for his hunting style. A general must choose the advantageous field for his battle. We should do the same as seducers.

I'm Asian and I too experienced a huge difference in results when I switched to places where girls are more open.

However, I've also come across girls who publicly aren't open to ethnic guys because of peer pressure, but when their friends aren't around, it's a different story. ;)

Some of you minorities may have already figured this out and that's cool, silly me right? But from what I had read online in all the resources I'd seen and heard was that looks didn't matter, race didn't matter, nothing mattered but game. The most potent resources I had found usually came from Tyler Durden and he'd constantly make comments like "Put me in anyone of yalls body's and I will pull, I WILL", well yeah he'd pull in my body too but not nearly with the same regularity or consistency he does with his own market. I pull in my body as well.
The guys who say that are always white guys who've never experienced the field as a minority.
 

FreeStyleZ

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HardTimes said:
Thanks man check out this post: http://www.sosuave.net/forum/showthread.php?t=158086 I think I've been experiencing the issue you're refering to. Not that my game is strong anyway but this sure isn't helping.
Yeah sounds like this is related to the issue to me. All the people in that other thread you're posting in mentioning how your first priority should be getting game in bars/clubs have a point, but it's pretty much irrelevant to the point you're posting about in that thread. It's like some fat chick going to the mall trying to pick out a dress or outfit on her then asking the salesperson for advice on what looks nice on her and the salesperson says "well first, if you want things to look nice on you, you need to lose all that weight because you're fat". It's kind of like, "you don't think I already know that? I'm looking for advice on THIS particular issue right now."

But anyway, next time they want you to send them a picture, send them a picture of some average looking white dude and then just see if they have a disappearing act as well. The thing I would do was treat it like a controlled social experiment online and I would just mix and match out different factors to see what it was causing the difference in results. How about trying to send them instead pictures of some really jacked black dude that you already KNOW is good looking and seeing if they disappear as well. I know when I was doing experiments like this, a good looking white dudes results just blew mine out of the water.

It got to the point with a good looking white dude where I'd be able to just ask the girl to come over within 1-2min of the conversation for sex and a lot of them were saying yes, or just being 100% direct to the point and seeing how many girls would be willing to come over for sex and the %s were astoundingly high. Hell, one time I was on the good looking white dudes account and talked this one chick into hooking up with "my black friend first" (the real me) before she could get me to hook up with "me" (white dude) and initially she agreed to it. I then talked to the girl on my real name showing her my real pictures and got her on the phone, got all the way to the point of getting to her place and then she told me she had a change of heart because her room mate talked her out of it.

Just experiment around man and learn things on your own to form your own opinions because most people that will be giving you advice really are just regurgitating **** they've read online with no real experience/context of their own to back it up. I know of a guy on this particular board whose been posting for 5 years with a huge post count that is 100% keyboard jockey never going out doing any approaches at all.
 

HardTimes

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FreeStyleZ said:
Yeah sounds like this is related to the issue to me. All the people in that other thread you're posting in mentioning how your first priority should be getting game in bars/clubs have a point, but it's pretty much irrelevant to the point you're posting about in that thread. It's like some fat chick going to the mall trying to pick out a dress or outfit on her then asking the salesperson for advice on what looks nice on her and the salesperson says "well first, if you want things to look nice on you, you need to lose all that weight because you're fat". It's kind of like, "you don't think I already know that? I'm looking for advice on THIS particular issue right now."

But anyway, next time they want you to send them a picture, send them a picture of some average looking white dude and then just see if they have a disappearing act as well. The thing I would do was treat it like a controlled social experiment online and I would just mix and match out different factors to see what it was causing the difference in results. How about trying to send them instead pictures of some really jacked black dude that you already KNOW is good looking and seeing if they disappear as well. I know when I was doing experiments like this, a good looking white dudes results just blew mine out of the water.

It got to the point with a good looking white dude where I'd be able to just ask the girl to come over within 1-2min of the conversation for sex and a lot of them were saying yes, or just being 100% direct to the point and seeing how many girls would be willing to come over for sex and the %s were astoundingly high. Hell, one time I was on the good looking white dudes account and talked this one chick into hooking up with "my black friend first" (the real me) before she could get me to hook up with "me" (white dude) and initially she agreed to it. I then talked to the girl on my real name showing her my real pictures and got her on the phone, got all the way to the point of getting to her place and then she told me she had a change of heart because her room mate talked her out of it.

Just experiment around man and learn things on your own to form your own opinions because most people that will be giving you advice really are just regurgitating **** they've read online with no real experience/context of their own to back it up. I know of a guy on this particular board whose been posting for 5 years with a huge post count that is 100% keyboard jockey never going out doing any approaches at all.
Thanks man it feels good to be talking to someone who has a grasp of the issue I'm facing. Like I said in my original thread I absolutely hate using the race card like you and I will be the first to admit my game is weak as hell, but damn it seems like even with those issues there are some instances (like I mentioned in the other thread) where I should of pull some girls but they are backing out either because of my looks or my race. And btw this are NOT really hot girls, average at best but im not really a superficial guy so I don't mind dating (and have dated) average looking girls.

Anyhow, I'm glad you conducted those experiments to validate what you thought to be true but I don't really see a reason to do them myself. The only thing that will tell me is that I even have less of a chance to pull girls than I already do and won't really help me in any way.

It's funny because in pretty much every other aspect of my life my race doesn't hold me down at all. I've always done very well in school, I've always got jobs easily and I currently have a really good job that pays well. I've never had anybody give me **** or treat me bad because of my race. Everybody is always nice to me in general. Never feel my race holds me back from doing anything except when it comes to getting women. I really hate having the victim attitude but it's really hard not to when reality tells you something different.
 

FreeStyleZ

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Don't get me wrong, they've pulled some drunken white girls, but not nearly as many as they should with their game. It's almost like the only ones they get are the curious hoes that want to discover for themselves if the myth is true, but they are far and few between.
Exactly, their results aren't going to be as high as it would within black venues... which seems like it's common sensical and makes sense, but not many people want to admit that race actually does have an effect on the results you'll get... and by understanding how this works, it just empowers you to seek out venues/girls/places that are better fit for the product you're trying to sell.

If the best salesman in the world tried to go door to door in Nevada/Arizona/the desert to sell umbrellas, he'll still sell some here and there and may even sell a decent amount because he's highly skilled, but he'd never be able to sell them more consistently than some dude with no salesman skills at all standing outside of a football stadium on a rainy day selling umbrellas to people who left home without them. What's the difference there? The demand is higher. With MORE demand, you need LESS skill to make the sell, which is similar in game. Because the demand for a black guy is lower naturally when going after white chicks, the game/skill has to be much higher to counteract that versus a white guy that's already got more inherent value to her.
 

FreeStyleZ

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A hunter must choose the forest suitable for his hunting style. A general must choose the advantageous field for his battle. We should do the same as seducers.
Yep. It doesn't have to necessarily have anything to do with race either. Some asian dude whose style is that of the intellectual artistic type might have amazing skills, but if he goes into a biker bar to try to game the girls there aren't particularly looking for his type at all. Could his game overcome that? Yeah maybe, but will he have similar results to if he just went to some kind of artsy hang out place? Hell no. He'd have the same skill set but go to the artsy club hang out and absolutely crush. He was the same person but the market he was trying to game in was not particularly fond of what he was offering.
 

FreeStyleZ

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but damn it seems like even with those issues there are some instances (like I mentioned in the other thread) where I should of pull some girls but they are backing out either because of my looks or my race
Right I totally feel you. When I was going out and improving my game, it took me longer and more skill to reach results that lesser skilled white friends of mine were able to reach in less time. That's where the whole notion comes from that "looks/race don't matter" because yes I was able to get results too, but the race did play an impact in the type and amount of results I could get.
 

HardTimes

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thewarrior said:
I think it's even harder for a black guy to go after asian chicks.
In my experience Asian chicks are easier than white chicks but maybe that's because I have a lot of Asian friends. I have a lot of white friends too and yes I've dated white girls but in general it seems much harder to get a white chick interested in me.
 

Jitterbug

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Minority guys should get off Internet dating sites. They're bad for everyone but particularly bad for us (unless it's a niche site that caters for minority guys - they exist). If you're gaming white girls, they get very picky with photos online and even if you're good looking, they'll get all those stereotypes they know about your race going through their heads. Whereas if you meet in person, the way you walk, talk, act etc. immediately smash those stereotypes and there's not much of a barrier to overcome race-wise.

FreeStyleZ said:
Right I totally feel you. When I was going out and improving my game, it took me longer and more skill to reach results that lesser skilled white friends of mine were able to reach in less time. That's where the whole notion comes from that "looks/race don't matter" because yes I was able to get results too, but the race did play an impact in the type and amount of results I could get.
HardTimes said:
It's funny because in pretty much every other aspect of my life my race doesn't hold me down at all. I've always done very well in school, I've always got jobs easily and I currently have a really good job that pays well. I've never had anybody give me **** or treat me bad because of my race. Everybody is always nice to me in general. Never feel my race holds me back from doing anything except when it comes to getting women. I really hate having the victim attitude but it's really hard not to when reality tells you something different.
Same experience here, but when people say "looks/race don't matter", there are two parts to it. The first part is what you think of it and the second is what she thinks of it. You can control the first and to an extent, influence the second. If you let the first part become an insecurity then you've already defeated yourself. If you control it fully, you're already half way there, and when you're cool with it and have a strong frame, she'll more likely be cool with it too.

What people are telling you is that looks/race should not matter to YOU and shouldn't hold YOU back. Race is something you can't change and you have to be smart to find a way to work around it. It's the same with height. Short guys are disadvantaged and it's something they can't change, but if they don't let that hold them back, they can still achieve a lot. Stack as many cards in your favour as possible.

FreeStyleZ said:
Yep. It doesn't have to necessarily have anything to do with race either. Some asian dude whose style is that of the intellectual artistic type might have amazing skills, but if he goes into a biker bar to try to game the girls there aren't particularly looking for his type at all. Could his game overcome that? Yeah maybe, but will he have similar results to if he just went to some kind of artsy hang out place? Hell no. He'd have the same skill set but go to the artsy club hang out and absolutely crush. He was the same person but the market he was trying to game in was not particularly fond of what he was offering.
That's what a good salesman would do. :) It's all about marketing to the right niches. We minority DJs are the same good products but with ****ty marketing (from the media & other social outlets in general) so we have to be smarter than the average white DJs in that regard.

HardTimes said:
In my experience Asian chicks are easier than white chicks but maybe that's because I have a lot of Asian friends.
Asian girls have huge b!tch shield if you don't have any friends in common but if you have such social proof, they're a lot friendlier. However, most of them are more relationship oriented (at least for me - they tend to want to be my GF asap, get married and have my babies) so unless you want to go there, they aren't actually that easy.
 

Jokerlsk

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It's just complete b*llsh*t because I"m half chinese half white.
I mean, it makes it harder. Someone earlier said something about "picking your advantage." but I don't think I have much of an advantage. It's actually an all around disadvantage being multiracial.
Then another person said stuff about stereotypes, and how the girls will fill their heads with those. I don't fit any of the asian stereotypes. I have curly hair, and I'm TALL. I have the asian shape eye, but it's not small.
I was pretty much raised as a typical american boy, but I can't shed these stereotypes, and I can't help the fact that I live in the south.... Possibly the worst place for me to live in.. I just don't know
 

Jitterbug

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Harden The Fvck Up, Jokerlsk. You're a half Asian half white tall guy - fvck man if that's not a huge advantage, I don't know what is!!! Women of both races dig biracial guys (and vice versa). People tease you and give you hate when you have something good that they don't! If everyone likes you, it means that you have nothing better than anyone and are just a poor lil lap puppy.

Two of the coolest guys (who get really hot GFs and every other chick wants to be theirs) I know in my social circle are two half Chinese, half white guys (father Chinese-Aussie, mother Anglo-Aussie).

Your race is not at all a barrier for you. It's a huge advantage. What's really stopping you is that you're being a whiney b!tch.
 

optimusprime

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Hey Freestylez,

I appreciate the post. You talked about gaming and getting much better results in other countries. It's pretty well known that European (and to a lesser extent, South American) women are MUCH more open to men of color. When you mention that you were more successful by changing where you played the game, are you talking about Europe? Which European countries did you have better time in? I'm not African American but South Asian (Indian/Pakistani) with olive skin and light eyes. Trust bro, I know all too well how much more success I would have if my skin were a shade or two lighter.

Sure, there are some women who like a little spice, but I have no idea which ones are. Since women are conditioned not to approach, the only ones I have connected with are the more aggressive or active types. There's no way I'm approaching a chick if I do not know if she's open-minded, so many nights are spent alone or with the guys.

Anyway, I'm making arrangements for studying abroad and I want to know which European countries are better for darker men. I was thinking the Netherlands, Sweden, or Belgium. Please let me know.
 

Duffdog

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Hi there!

I'm the stereotypical level-5 white guy. I was just wondering what is it that black guys like so much about white girls? I never quite understood it, even from my friends who are black, why they would bypass a really hot black or puerto rican girl and go for some totally average white chic. I don't know why this happens and I have always been curious about it.
 

optimusprime

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Hi Duffdog, please do not make this thread into a heated discussion about "why certain guys are into WW." There are many complicated factors, but one reason for it is simply numbers: unless a minority guy is in the inner city, there are far more white girls in his social circle (school, college, clubs, etc.) or work environment (especially if he is a professional).

Mods, this is an important topic about approach anxiety, what minority guys can do about it, and the need for a positive outlook. Please keep the thread open, as I and others probably do not have an outlet to talk about this difficult issue.
 

ZhaoYun

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Duffdog said:
Hi there!

I'm the stereotypical level-5 white guy. I was just wondering what is it that black guys like so much about white girls? I never quite understood it, even from my friends who are black, why they would bypass a really hot black or puerto rican girl and go for some totally average white chic. I don't know why this happens and I have always been curious about it.
I think this is a legit question. Most of my friends are black and from what I can tell or been told, this isn't always the case. If a really fine black/hispanic chick is digging one of them while an average white girl also is they'll go for the hottie.

Reason why they go for white girls at all is because it's generally known that some white women that look or act a certain way (knowingly go for black guys) are much easier lays. More then likely if you can't get a lay you're guaranteed to at least get head from a white girl then from a black/hispanic or asian. From my experience (I'm asian, but well built and hang out with majority of blacks and other asians) white women that have that "I'll do a minority look" (black guys know what I'm talking about) are the easiest fvcks in the world. No doubt. On the other hand, white girls that fit the preppy, abercrombie/aero/uggs wearing profiles are the hardest for minorities to lay.

Hope that answers your question
 

Duffdog

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optimusprime said:
Hi Duffdog, please do not make this thread into a heated discussion about "why certain guys are into WW." There are many complicated factors, but one reason for it is simply numbers: unless a minority guy is in the inner city, there are far more white girls in his social circle (school, college, clubs, etc.) or work environment (especially if he is a professional).

Mods, this is an important topic about approach anxiety, what minority guys can do about it, and the need for a positive outlook. Please keep the thread open, as I and others probably do not have an outlet to talk about this difficult issue.
Ok, well I guess its a bad subject to even discuss. No problem.
 
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