Interest vs Investment: Reduce Flaking and Have Her Chase You

A few years ago, I had just discovered the seduction community, and was doing very well for a beginner. I was constantly approaching sets, getting IOIs and even pulling off quite a few numbers.

One HUGE barrier that I experienced, and I'm sure all of you have, was flaking. Lots. Of. Fvcking. Flaking.

Which was obviously annoying. I couldn't understand why I had these girls laughing, giggling, and hanging on to my every word, but still flaking. I could tell they were attracted, they were expressing enormous amounts of interest but when I called, tried to set up a Day 2, I'd get the usual bullsh*t.

"I'm sorry, I'm busy"
"I have lots of work to do recently"
"Sorry but I'm going out with my girlfriends"

Or, even better. They just don't pick up.

I pondered this for ages, and this was my major sticking point for around 6 months. Then I discovered our local community, and had one of the more experienced guys explain Investment vs Interest to me. And I clicked.

You see, when I, and most of the newbies, first started on our adventure to sexual stardom and self actualization, e.g. awesomeness We were excited. We've just read the Mystery Method, or the Game, and we want to test these theories, these lines.

So we (Or the few that have balls enough) turn into approach machines and try out these lines. What did we find?

It FVCKING WORKS! YAY! We jump up in joy. We'd spit these routines out and find that girls were giggling and laughing, and giving us their opinions on stupid sh*t that we really didn't give half a damn about.

We'd barrage them routine after routine, line after line and they ate it up. They were interested. They could listen to us all day long. But how much did they put into the interaction? I want you guys to think back to the last set that flaked. How much did they actually put into the interaction? Yeah sure, they responded, they gave you their opinions on some light hearted funny topic, something fairly useless.

How much true FEELINGS did they put into the interaction?

How much EMOTION?

Did they share with you a secret that they have told no one about?

Did they put effort into the interaction?

Did you share an experience that they could not have with anyone else?

Or were they just giving you really mundane responses to shallow topics? They giggled and laughed at your jokes and banter, but they invested nothing. You were their entertainer.

Making a woman invest into the interaction is much more powerful than getting her showing interest.

If you invest 5 years into a long term relationship that goes nowhere, how hard is it to decide it's time to leave? It's excruciating. Why? Because you don't want all the emotion, the love, the time you've invested into this woman to go to waste.

Well, we can flip that, and have the woman experience a fear of loss. In your next interaction with a woman, try and draw out some investment. If you ask her a question, make her elaborate on her answer, ask her how she FEELS. Dig deep. Make her expose her thoughts/opinions/emotions/vulnerabilities/experiences to you...

Any woman can show interest, they even giggle at the fat, bald, low social value guy in the rarity that he says something amusing. Will they sleep with him? Probably not.

But when women INVEST, they want to PROTECT their investment. They WON you, they had to think of witty lines to keep you interested, they exposed a side of themselves they haven't to anyone else, they talked about their true, deep, feelings.

They fvcking deserve you, they put way too much effort into you for you to just leave. They will chase, they will fvck, they will do anything to have you (By the way, this is were jealousy plot lines really have their full effect) . This is much more powerful than focusing solely on keeping them interested. Interest is a temporary mind state. They may be having fun and in a good mood, they may have had a few drinks and feel flirty. When they wake up tomorrow, they will not answer you call.

Often, getting a girl to invest requires investing of your own. Be prepared to, it's not a one way street.

When gauging or calibrating for how solid my set is, or likeliness of flaking, I look for investment, not interest. It doesn't lie.

One thing that is extremely important is to make sure you are running attraction game while making her invest. Invest can be anything and doesn't neccessarily mean deep, meaningful talk, which is a much larger investment. When you do reach that point where larger investments is what you are after, the attraction game earlier on prevents you from LJBF'ed.

I realize this is quite long, but this is really an important concept to get down pat, before moving on to more difficult stuff.

Good luck.

-Lust.

Superb post man. This is very true. I myself have fell into that trap of "entertaining" a woman instead of making a true,genuine connection with her. And it's just like you said. You get deceived by her positive responses.
You think because she laughed,or kept talking with you that those things themselves meant she was interested in you. The thing that's so tricky is that some of the things a woman does when she's interested in you,she also does them when she's not interested as well. For example,a woman can laugh and giggle when she likes being in your presence,but she can also be laughing simply because you said something funny. The two are not the same.

Anyway,nice post. Very insightful.

Igetit! said:

Superb post man. This is very true. I myself have fell into that trap of "entertaining" a woman instead of making a true,genuine connection with her. And it's just like you said. You get deceived by her positive responses.
You think because she laughed,or kept talking with you that those things themselves meant she was interested in you. The thing that's so tricky is that some of the things a woman does when she's interested in you,she also does them when she's not interested as well. For example,a woman can laugh and giggle when she likes being in your presence,but she can also be laughing simply because you said something funny. The two are not the same.

Anyway,nice post. Very insightful.

Click to expand...

Exactly. Women chase after their investment, but interest comes and goes.

Cheers for the props.

It's an interesting idea and a good word play, but there are a couple flaws that I see.

If you get a girl off the bat to spill her feelings and emotions at you, you are now looked at as undoubtedly a friend. I mean women don't go on Dr. Phil and Oprah spew their crap, then leave saying how bad they won't either of them.

However, there is good stuff in what you wrote. It's a good idea to "invest," but do so at a later point. The opener is intended to open the door, and if you keep it shallow it will happen like the above.

It's important to "invest" at a good point. That point being after the first or second date in an intimate setting, i.e., restaurant, bed, etc.

You can't invest before than. Women will either leave, or they will place you into the deep dark pit of friendom.

But if you don't "invest" after the first or second date, you will be seen as not deep, and most likely not worth that second date because she will see you as nothing more than an open liner and a couple funny jokes. You have to invest to show you are deeper.

But in order to show her that you are deeper, you have to wait till the right moment, but much like market investing the key is timing.

Rather in order to achieve what you are looking for getting the first date, it is much easier and more proficiently achieved by small talk and touching. Developing that sexual interest.

Lust

OMG!!

Great great Fing post

This is my sticking point right now

i can make a girl laugh, I can get her to touch me and all that b.s.
I can even # close (easy)

But they flake flake flake

Is there anyway you can give an example of "investment" I would greatly appericate that.

Solo

The Master Disaster said:

It's an interesting idea and a good word play, but there are a couple flaws that I see.

If you get a girl off the bat to spill her feelings and emotions at you, you are now looked at as undoubtedly a friend. I mean women don't go on Dr. Phil and Oprah spew their crap, then leave saying how bad they won't either of them.

However, there is good stuff in what you wrote. It's a good idea to "invest," but do so at a later point. The opener is intended to open the door, and if you keep it shallow it will happen like the above.

It's important to "invest" at a good point. That point being after the first or second date in an intimate setting, i.e., restaurant, bed, etc.

You can't invest before than. Women will either leave, or they will place you into the deep dark pit of friendom.

But if you don't "invest" after the first or second date, you will be seen as not deep, and most likely not worth that second date because she will see you as nothing more than an open liner and a couple funny jokes. You have to invest to show you are deeper.

But in order to show her that you are deeper, you have to wait till the right moment, but much like market investing the key is timing.

Rather in order to achieve what you are looking for getting the first date, it is much easier and more proficiently achieved by small talk and touching. Developing that sexual interest.

Click to expand...

I agree with you but....

The point is you have to get them to the first/second date, and this is a problem for me and a lot of other guys. Women can flake worse then dandruff off a dog's hair, they are great (superme actually) when it comes to the art of flaking. I've heard it all and seen it all when it comes to flaking lol.

The Master Disaster said:

It's an interesting idea and a good word play, but there are a couple flaws that I see.

If you get a girl off the bat to spill her feelings and emotions at you, you are now looked at as undoubtedly a friend. I mean women don't go on Dr. Phil and Oprah spew their crap, then leave saying how bad they won't either of them.

However, there is good stuff in what you wrote. It's a good idea to "invest," but do so at a later point. The opener is intended to open the door, and if you keep it shallow it will happen like the above.

It's important to "invest" at a good point. That point being after the first or second date in an intimate setting, i.e., restaurant, bed, etc.

You can't invest before than. Women will either leave, or they will place you into the deep dark pit of friendom.

But if you don't "invest" after the first or second date, you will be seen as not deep, and most likely not worth that second date because she will see you as nothing more than an open liner and a couple funny jokes. You have to invest to show you are deeper.

But in order to show her that you are deeper, you have to wait till the right moment, but much like market investing the key is timing.

Rather in order to achieve what you are looking for getting the first date, it is much easier and more proficiently achieved by small talk and touching. Developing that sexual interest.

Click to expand...

Oh yes, I didn't not delve deep into other things you need to keep in mind, in that post.

Yes, definitely. If you are all "feelings", you'll be LJBFed before you can say "invest". I should have mentioned that it is EXTREMELY important to be running attraction while getting her to invest.

Perhaps I've overemphasised the deeper and more meaningful investments such as childhood memories or secrets she's never told anyone else.

Investment can be anything!

Investment is just her putting in effort. Making her elaborate an answer, making her spend more time with you, playing games that require her to contribute are all minor investments. Not just opening up and connecting on a deeper level, though obviously that is a much larger investment, and will yield much better results.

You sprinkle these minor investments in the interaction while you are running attraction. As you move along the interaction from attraction to comfort, you can make her invest more and more.

Also, a great way to eliminate the LJBF threat, while making her invest, is making her share sex secrets/experiences with you. If you SOI'ed earlier, ran decent attraction game and combine sex talk with her investment of sharing something she usually doesn't, she will not see you as a friend.

I'll see if I can edit my post to include emphasis on building attraction.

Solomon said:

Is there anyway you can give an example of "investment" I would greatly appericate that.

Solo

Click to expand...

Minor investment:

In book store/library:

Me: Hey, could you recommend me a book?
Her: I don't know what.
Me: Hmm, I'm sure you can think of something, what have you read lately? (pushing for elaboration e.g. more effort)
Her: Not much.
Me: Well actually I've read blah blah, I thought it was really mind opening! It really made me... whatever. (Here, I see she wasn't prepared yet, so I invest and give my opinions. Once she sees that I'm a cool, high value guy that has just shared my genuine opinions with her e.g. invest, hopefully she'll do the same.

Larger Investments:

Her: Yeah I'm a dancer, I love it. I dance x dance at x studio every thursdays.
Me: Really?!? That's awesome, not wonder you're so full of energy! Why do you love dancing so much? (pushing for elaboration e.g. more effort)
Her: Giggle giggle, I don't know!
Me: Well there must be a reason why it makes you so happy.
Her: It's...just...fun.
Me: Well I'm a musician, I play the guitar. I absolutely love it because it's my way to escaping reality, it's an emotional outlet for me to be creative and express how I feel, it almost gives me a sense of freedom as when I was younger I had very strict parents and I felt I wasn't able to express myself... blah blah. (Me investing deeply, hopefully she'll invest afterwards)
Her: Yeah I guess I also love the creativity of it, you like expressing how you feel through your music, I guess I like to do it through my body. I love the energy of dance, it's makes me feel.... blah blah.

Hopefully this gives you an idea.

I would post more (one on the sexual experiences) but it's late and I need sleep. Hope this helps.

-Lust.

Bumpity bump, I think this is important.

IgetIT recommended I look at this post and I'm glad I did.... I have recently finished my approach journal and as is the case with many have encountered many flakes. I read an article by Allen Thompson years ago called "Investing in the Relationship" which really stuck.....though I guess I didn't know how to apply this to initial encounters....

So basically the best thing to do is to have girls elaborate on topics and get them to share their "feelings or emotions" about something.... and if they are unwilling to do so you I should volunteer something like that first....

Any more examples you have from your real life experiences are appreciated!

This is also called 'rapport'.

Bump!

nice post, will be keeping track.

can u give more examples of investment say in a bar environment?

is really getting her to elaborate more on her answer really going to make it work?

Bump.

Phenomenal post.

pete101 said:

can u give more examples of investment say in a bar environment?

is really getting her to elaborate more on her answer really going to make it work?

Click to expand...

It's not the elaboration that creates the investment, it's the opportunity for her to share something with you, spend time/effort/money/emotional energy on you that creates the investment.

An easy one at the bar is to convince her to buy you a drink. Might not be as deep as other forms of investment, but it still works. And you get a free drink too

Think of it this way, any GENUINE conversation, where both of you are putting effort into the interaction, is investment.

If it's still not making sense, send me a PM and i'll try to make it a little more clearer.

dude totally agree, the connection is important, the interest hooks them but that connection is what keeps them on the line.

Play hard to get
Play hard to get
Play hard to get...

The only way its either that or move on..This isnt Sixteen Candles guys,most women think like men and almost automaticaly unattracted to a guy they know is always gona be around...

The theory of Investment was invented by AFC Adams Lyons London.

Check out his interviews on youtube.

Its really strange no one mentions him here. He is ranked #3 PUA. He is AWESOME, and his stuff is all about Investment, Qualification, Being Natural.

All you guys hating on PUAs need to open your eyes. AFC Adam is all about being natural, but he admits that he uses techniques, and there is a difference between routines and techniques.

MM concentrates too much on demonstrating value, but very little on qualification.

This is the bottom line:

You only need to demonstrate enough value (verbally or live social proof) for her to get interested, and THEN the REAL game begins - HER investment, qualification, rewarding with kino and closing the deal.

This is a great post. Much appreciated and I will keep this in mind.

Just wanted to throw out some other ways to reduce flaking:

1.) Insta-dates. (take her out the moment you meet her)
2.) Call her up, really re-pick her up on the phone through awesomeness, and then make a date for that instant.
3.) If she's busy ask for her schedule this week. Then set a time that works. (this saves a lot of "well how 'bout this time, ok well how 'bout this time)
4.) A lot of guys confuse interest with busyness. A girl can be genuinely interested and genuinely busy at the same time. Sometimes, a girl just has no mental space (juggling too many things) or no time to get together with some new dude. I respect that and I don't take it personally.

Besides, I am genuine so I know our chemistry is always genuine.

Some other things to reduce flaking:

Talk about sexual liberation stuff. I tell women that I don't value people based on looks, I tell them that I think it's a shame our society labels women who have sex when they want a slut, that I don't believe in owning sexual property (aka an exclusive right to the sexuality of others). Stuff like that. It's hard to bring up, but I don't regret it when I do. Also, much of the above is just my vibe - I don't joke about sex, I compliment women who have a lot of sex, I talk about respecting porn stars and their courage against all the condescension that comes with the job.

In short, I go out of my way to show that I like her and not superficially. I go out of my way to show her I respect any girl who chooses to have sex. I go out of my way to show her that I'm too mature to be clingy or have unrealistic expectations about what romance can do for my life.

It really lets the ladies know that I'm on their team. It disarms them. Dating becomes teamwork, not a battle. Once a girl is on your team, why would she flake? Teamwork is a powerful, powerful thing.

Izza

So if I borrow $20 from her that's an investment right?