Okay, so I'm a bastard....

I have this 22 yr old I know. Had sex with her in the past, but she is in one of those phases of "self discovery" where she has made a vow to only have sex within the confines of a committed relationship.

I know she is interested in a relationship, and I let her know that her little "born again virgin" game doesn't fly with me.

We had some communication issues with this issue, but I believe that she finally understands where I am coming from, and I agreed to basically "see where it goes".

Now I fully realize that a LTR is pretty much out of the question with this girl. But I am still prepared to "explore my opportunities" with her.

This would be a LDR where she's in COLLEGE in an a major, MAJOR party area. I'm not stupid enough to think that a 22 yr old college chick would be faithful and would cut herself off to opportunities if she is "with" me.

The thing is....I am considering a "relationship" with this girl.

I know that the only way it would progress on her end is if she had a commitment. Thing is, I know how it works. If I were to commit to her and be FAITHFUL to her, next thing you know she has met prince charming who lives 10 minutes away, and I'm history.

Soooooo......all I have to do is way the word, and I have a hot 22 yr old college chick for a "g/f". Now there is no way IN HELL I'm going to cut off my opportunities on a local level to "commit" to a chick who lives three hours away.

Basically, this chick wants to live the fantasy of having a devoted, committed relationship with someone, regardless of distance, age, etc.

But I know different. I know the score. I know how stuff like this plays out.

I know that she will eventually find "love" outside the confines of our "arrangement".

So, going into this with this knowledge, I am obviously "taking advantage" of a woman by accepting her proposal without regard for honoring the commitment.

So how do you reconcile the two?

You KNOW the score. College chicks WILL party. I would be stupid to believe otherwise.

So if I enter into a "commitment" with a woman whom I have reasonable assurance will "cheat", am I the SOB for getting involved with her without regard for our "commitment"?

Nope.

You are not an SOB.

We all know that despite her hollow claims of devotion and undying love to your committed union that the youthful hormones will kick in and override all that bullsh!t once she runs into some hot young stud with a killer smile, the gift of gab and a 6 pack of Corona on a lonely Friday night when she's missing Str8up and yearning for love, connection and c0ck that is out of site from you but right in front of her with the guy you are not supposed to know about tee hee.

You already know how to run this scenario so I'll play it out for the Discussion Forum kids who are reading this and trying to learn something...

What Str8up is most likely going to do kiddies is once she springs the inevitable found someone else convo on him he will likely calmly wish her well not letting this effect him or she will hear the phone off the hook signal and that will be the end of that while Str8up fully realizing that this ship has sailed and the voyage is now over goes off to plow another member of his stable.

Either way what I laid out can work at not giving a woman the emotional reaction that they crave out of you but some chicks have such a delusional entitlement mentality no matter what you do once they spring that conversation on you they will try to interpret as you being emotionally wounded by what they have done.

Why?

Well it serves their ego validation needs you see.

Sad but true.

Oh and Str8up specifically I don't think you are a bastard because I don't think women ever rule out hooking up with a perceived better prospect should the opportunity present itself to them. Loyalty as we men perceive it they view as silly because it doesn't serve them from moment to moment. They view that as childish behavior when we view it as essential.

Their answer to that instead of actually being loyal is just being silent about what they've done. After all what you don't know can't hurt you right? Thats delusional callous chick logic at work for you.

Well there is today's lesson for you all.

KontrollerX said:

Oh and Str8up specifically I don't think you are a bastard because I don't think women ever rule out hooking up with a perceived better prospect should the opportunity present itself to them. Loyalty as we men perceive it they view as silly because it doesn't serve them from moment to moment. They view that as childish behavior when we view it as essential.

Well there is today's lesson for you all.

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Doesn't it suck to be CONSCIOUS of all of this, almost having a crystal ball that will predict how things will go down, just to have your prophesy fulfilled....."your" chick getting stuffed with some other guy's sausage.

I hate being the good guy, I really do. Especially in situations such as this where YOU KNOW the outcome, You can see it coming a mile away. Your chick is lonely cause you can only see her every few weeks. She meets a guy who floats her boat, and you are history.

So why can't the guy have the foresight to see what is BOUND to happen, and deal with it accordingly? I guess it's just the kind of person I am. I can't help it, but it seems that the more you can remove yourself from the emotional component if relationships as we know them, the better off you will do.

I don't think you're being the bastard if you agreed to this LDR. I'm kind of surprised you would question whether you would be. Because honestly there is a double standard as there should be that even if you cheated on her while she was away being committed in a LDR it's not the same thing as a woman cheating. And besides that, even though I agree with you the odds are that she will cheat or you will or it just won't work out over the long haul, that hasn't actually happened yet and no one knows the future for absolute certain.

I think you are sincere in the principle of being commited contigent on her behavior. That's really the best you can do in entering any relationship. So I don't think you would be the "bastard" at all to enter into this agreement and see where the chips fall.

Sounds like you need a refresher STR8,...

There is no such thing as an LDR, because you have no relationship. An LDR simply does not meet the criteria necessary for it to be considered a relationship. There is no reciprocity of anything more than words passing over a phone line or an IM text. Understand me here – you have no relationship. You have self-assumed accountability, self-assumed liability and internalized responsibilities to be loyal to this person, to fidelity to this idealization, and dropping what everyone outside of your LDR will regularly tell you is insanity, is a personal affront and anathema to this stupid and most insidious form of ONEitis.

LDRs are the most easily identifiable form of ONEitis and it would be laughable if it weren't so damaging to a guy's life progression. The LDR man would sacrifice years of his life in this pitiable effort to pursue his 'soulmate' across the planet or even a hundred miles away. The very thought of refuting the idea that an LDR can work is equal to denying his belief this stupid, fantasized ONEitis fueled idealization that he's swallowed for the better part of his life. It’s easy to criticize an LDR in the terms of questioning either party's earnestness and fidelity in entertaining an LDR and this is usually the tact that most people giving advice on LDRs follow. One or both parties are or will 'cheat' on the other over the course of time, its true, but LDRs are far more telling of a mentality that results in much more damaging consequences as a result of deeply conditioned self-expectations and fears.

I can't begin to list the number of otherwise intelligent and ambitious men I’ve known who've drastically altered the course of their lives to follow their ONE. Men who've changed their majors in college, who've selected or switched universities, men who've applied for jobs in states they would never have considered, accepted jobs that are sub-standard to their ambitions or qualifications, men who've renounced former religions and men who've moved across the planet all in an effort to better accommodate an idealized woman with whom they've played pseudo-boyfriend over the course of an LDR only to find that she wasn't the person they thought she was and were depressive over the gravity that their decisions played in their lives.

An LDR is akin to a LJBF, but writ large and festering in a man's life. You play surrogate boyfriend, voluntarily accepting and internalizing all of the responsibilities and accountabilities of being a woman's exclusive, monogamous partner with no expectation of reciprocating intimacy or sexuality. It is the ideal situation for a woman in the same manner a Booty Call is for a man - all sex with no expectations of monogamy or commitment. However an LDR is worse than a LJBF arrangement since it pervasively locks a man into a success or failure mentality with regards to the relationship actually being legitimate. Afterall, she's agreed to be his girlfriend (from miles away) and if he's the one to falter it's his lack of perseverance in this silly ONEitis ego-investment that dooms them. Once the LDR inevitably ends he's the one left with the self-doubt, he's the one beating himself up over wasting time, money and effort and he's the one feeling guilty whether he or she is the 'cheater'.

An LDR is like having an invisible friend with whom you're constantly considering the course of your actions with. Consider the personal, romantic, familial, educational, ambition-wise, business-wise, personally maturity and growth opportunities that you've limited yourself from or never had a chance to experience because of this invisible friend. When you finally divorce yourself from this invisible friend, will it have all been worth it? Guys cling to LDRs because they've yet to learn, in POOK's inimitable words, that Rejection is better than Regret. AFCs will nurse along an LDR for years because it seems the better option when compared with actually going out and meeting new women who are potential rejection. They think its better to stick with the 'sure thing' than risk possible rejection, but it's the long term regret that is the inevitable result of an LDR that is life damaging. Nothing reeks of desperation or verifies a lack of confidence more than a guy who self-righteously proclaims he's in an LDR. Women see you coming a mile off, because you are a guy without options. In fact the only reason a man entertains an LDR is due to a lack of options. If you had more plates spinning an LDR would never look like a good idea. And finally, I'm sure I'll see the "not in my case" defense posted here about how you actually DO see your invisible friend once every 4 or six months. To this I'll say again, what opportunities are you censoring yourself from experiencing by playing house with a woman you only see this often? Do you honestly think you're the exception to the rule?

Rollo Tomassi said:

Sounds like you need a refresher STR8,...

There is no such thing as an LDR, because you have no relationship.

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I know that, and YOU know that, but in HER eyes it's different.

She might even go into it with 100% good intentions, but what are the odds of her not at minimum moving on to someone else, maximum fukking around the whole time she's "with" me?

That's my connundrum. I know what's gonna happen UP FRONT. It's a moral dilemma for me because although chances are it will be HER breaking it off months down the road after she finds something more convenient, I am not one to break promises.

As you know, I have no qualms about screwing someone else's girl if she is begging for it, but believe it or not I'm a guy who tries his best to honor commitments that I personally make to others.

So what it comes down to is that I need to get my head out of my ass and realize that it's part of a woman's agenda to tie you down as she continues to scout (if not exercise) her options.

In fact the only reason a man entertains an LDR is due to a lack of options. If you had more plates spinning an LDR would never look like a good idea.

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This is where I beg to differ.

A plate is a plate.

I'm not talking about eliminating my options here, I'm talking about expanding them.

That's why I said I would be a "bastard" for going into this cause there wouldn't be a chance in hell that I would be "faithful".

What could be better than having a 22 yr old "girlfriend" that you can drive down and see every few weeks, then come home and do your thing?

It's a have your cake and eat it too situation, outside of the fact that I would be pre-emptively exercising MY options despite the implication of a commitment.

So basically I can agree to the proposition and reconcile my moral dilemma with my real world knowledge of the way things like this work, or I can walk away with nothing. And don't say, "If you had more plates", etc., cause that's all I see this as anyway.

The only other option is to lay it all out, let her know you don't think it will work and why,but you and I both know she won't believe you until it happens. Maybe tell her "you can be my number 1 girl,but you won't be my only girl until you live here and we can date consistantly" If you could alternate weekends driving to meet,maybe it would work. If she started missing weekends,you'd have your early warning to leave.[tell her those are the conditions]I'm assuming that if she was walking to school on monday with a limp and a smile; she'd be ok until Wed. or Thurs., then she can look forward to another weekend with you.

I understand that you are a guy that values honoring your commitments highly Str8up but here's what could happen if you try the moral route...

Say you proposition this girl that sure you two will be "officially" in a relationship together but because of the circumstances you think you and the girl for sanity's sake should probably make it be an open relationship where you can fvck other people while you are apart and that this fvcking other people deal automatically ends once you can be back together without the distance.

Also I'm sure you don't care about this being so far into the game but with this proposition I think it'd be wise if you threw in the clause that neither of you tell eachother how many people you fvcked or how you fvcked them, how long you fvcked them, etc. As this keeps her from interrogating you over all of the hotties that you boned and it also prevents her from finding a convenient excuse to get angry with you and end the relationship with you which of course keeps you firmly in the power position.

Anyway all that I just said is what you could try if you want to run things the moral way, the good guy way which you are having understandable trouble shutting off in your mind.

The problem with this whole propositioning scenario I laid out is the girl could outright reject it and insist she will remain true and there's nothing to worry about blah blah blah which either forces you to lie to her and say that she's right and that you two won't fvck other people while apart from eachother or being unable to overcome your keeping your obligations side tell her that it just won't work because as a man you have needs she won't be able to fulfill while so far away. Barring this another thing that could happen if you proposed the open relationship scenario to this girl is she could get all huffy and offended and you could lose her this way too which is probably the most likely scenario to happen.

So yeah if you take the piece of mind route you endanger the piece of ass route.

I think you're just going to have to continually bombard the morality part of your brain with the truth that you might as well forget the proposition entirely and just tell her what she wants to hear because again we all know that when she meets some stud while out of Str8up's vision she will be on her knees for him and then come home and kiss you with that mouth with no guilt whatsoever. Like Hamlet you'll just have to reconcile that you are a good man doing what is necessary to survive in a bad world. It sucks that you have to lie to get what you want but we all know and you know that you wish things weren't this way but they are.

STR8UP said:

So if I enter into a "commitment" with a woman whom I have reasonable assurance will "cheat", am I the SOB for getting involved with her without regard for our "commitment"?

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Str8up why do you waste your time with situations like this? NOTHING good will come out of a relationship--LDR much less--with a 22 year-old college chick, other than some ego-inflating sex. Wow, you da man.

This is not a personal attack, but you are always dithering around with these girls who are barely old enough to drink, and this is a poor use of your time. You are considering whether or not YOU are the bastard when it is your own best interest you are putting at risk.

What you are saying is that want you HER to be 'committed' to you (so you can bang her), but you aren't going to cut off your local opportunities in the process. Basically this equates to a two-way mirror: it's a FB deal for you, and a pseudo-commitment for her, but you are preemptively scheming it this way to protect yourself from getting played. So, regardless of whether or not she ends up 'cheating' at State U (and she will), you are the one doing the deceiving here.

My advice, which I know is futile--- stop wasting your time and effort on young girls who have no serious potential for being a positive addition to your life. What are you gaining from this other than frustrations and a piece of a$$?

I think she WANTS you to lie to her, she can can overcome her ASD, and not feel like a hor. You know better than to be "moral" in this situation. Dont ask, dont tell. What she dont know, wont hurt her, if she's far away. I dont advocate cheating either, but in this case, its ok.

Think about it. Why should you deny HER your peenis, cuz of her obviously temporary ethics shift? She'll lie to you, might as well lie first.

Colossus said:

Str8up why do you waste your time with situations like this? NOTHING good will come out of a relationship--LDR much less--with a 22 year-old college chick, other than some ego-inflating sex. Wow, you da man.........................................................My advice, which I know is futile--- stop wasting your time and effort on young girls who have no serious potential for being a positive addition to your life. What are you gaining from this other than frustrations and a piece of a$$?

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See, this is where you just don't get it.

If this were something to which I had to devote a lot of time and effort, I wouldn't be considering it.

But it's kind of on auto-pilot. I have a life of my own that I would continue to live (and I know she would as well).

Why do I "waste my time" on young girls who have no serious potential? Well, first and foremost I have no delusions of something that will never be. So why not enjoy the ride?

I've spent many years being the pawn in women's games. I no longer accept the proposition that a woman is allowed to keep herself open to options, while a man must close off his.

The whole point of this post was to get a grip on my own feelings toward this type of situation. There is a part of me that says "You KNOW better! Don't get involved! You might risk hurting this poor girl's feelings!"

Then the other part of me that knows how the world TRULY works says "If you go into this, regardless of what she says, there's a 95% chance that she wouldn't hesitate to screw you over when a better opportunity presents itself, despite the fact that she might not exactly be "calculating" your demise......"

Man, I'm done with it. Just DONE. I look back on the majority of my relationships and I see that I was the one who got SCREWED, just because I was the one who took the high road, watching out for everyone else's feelings. I'm pretty much done with that. It's not worth it. It's sad to say, but especially in situations like this it is screw or BE screwed. The third choice is to walk away from it all, but I'm not convinced that doing so is the best course of action for EITHER party.

horaholic said:

I think she WANTS you to lie to her, she can can overcome her ASD, and not feel like a hor. You know better than to be "moral" in this situation. Dont ask, dont tell. What she dont know, wont hurt her, if she's far away. I dont advocate cheating either, but in this case, its ok.

Think about it. Why should you deny HER your peenis, cuz of her obviously temporary ethics shift? She'll lie to you, might as well lie first.

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There is more than a grain of truth to this statement.

I have had more than one woman tell me "If you decide to cheat, just make sure I don't find out about it"

Almost like they EXPECT infidelity, but to protect their ego, their pride, and theur reputation, they request that you exercise dicretion.

I mean, realistically, this girl (and I quote) believes that I am "a highly sexual person". She knows in the back of her mind that I'm not going to sacrice my freedom to be tied to something that is on shaky ground from the start.

Spoke with her the other day and told her that when she gets settled into her classes, I plan to visit her.

At minimum it will allow me an excuse to get out of town for a couple of days. At that time I wil re-evaluate the situation to see what might be my best course of action to proceed.

Does she know anyone in your social circle in your town? If not, this is the ideal situation. LDR's are the best thing since sliced bread under this circumstance.

You get all the benefits of being in a committed relationship while having all the benefits of being single. You basically know the deal, you know she's 22 and in college and whats likely to happen. So you accept it and act accordingly. You enter into a committed LDR with her, you get the benefits of being in a committed relationship with her, you get the committed sex aspect.

Then you still have your life in your town and your free to do whatever you want there. You get random ONS sex, you get it all.

But if she's a part of your social circle, then I'd probably be really discrete about my indescretions in front of others, especially guys if they are attracted to her.

How long can something like this last though? Until one of you fvcks up and the other finds out? What if that never comes to fruition?

Keep enjoying the satisfaction of banging a 22 year old, just make sure it doesn't continue for too long or you could be in for a rude awakening. Are you sure that you'll never fall for her?

GuanYu said:

How long can something like this last though?

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I did it for years without ever a question. Its all about how you conduct yourself and act.

MacAvoy said:

Does she know anyone in your social circle in your town? If not, this is the ideal situation. LDR's are the best thing since sliced bread under this circumstance.

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That's the only glitch in this little plan.....her best friend lives here and is part of one of my social circles that feeds me with a constant stream of new women.

Matter of fact, I had a little party last night and the 22yo's best friend was there.

Another female friend of mine was also there, and we all went downtown for a couple of hours after the party.

This "other" female friend of mine happens to be someone who I have actuallly never had sex with, but by the way we interact, most people assume we are fukking.

So last night we are walking to the bar. On the way there, I slapped the ass of the best friend. I don't remember exactly how it went down, but my other female friend saw me do it and punched me and acted a little pissy. Best friend sees this, and avoids me all night cause she thought my other friend was staking her claim or something.

So I roll out of bed and I'm not online 2 minutes and 22yo sends me an IM asking if I was having sex with the other chick.

Point is, I DO have to be careful if I am going to be able to pull this off.

her best friend lives here and is part of one of my social circles

Then you have zero chance of pulling this off.

I am certainly not on any high horse myself about cheating, and have gone back and forth about it. But if you cheat, you are pretty much insuring that you will never reach a higher level of seriousness with whoever you are cheating on. That's fine if you want to write off any chance of ever ending up in a serious LTR with the girl; maybe a LTR is not what you want. But make sure it's not before you cheat, or else you will never have it.

A girl I went to high school with and was once in AFC love with called me the other night. About six years ago, I was being an afc and telling her I loved her and wanted to be with her. She did make out a little with me, but we did not have sex. She kept telling me 'I have a boyfriend' and she went back to him, picking the other guy over me, boo-hoo. They're now engaged and live together. But she just found out yesterday that he has cheated on her 16 times with women he met on craigslist (apparently craigslist is working for someone). Unfortunately, they just bought a house together, and neither one of them can make the $4,000/mo mortgage payment on their own. This girl is hot; she a hb8-9 on anyone's scale, and was telling me that she still fits in her prom dress from high school. She said he was usually the one turning her down for sex, and bragged to me that she was "a freak in bed."

She traveled a lot with her job, and he told her after she found out about him - "I just figured that you were probably cheating on me." So he was doing the same thing that you are considering, str8up. It works for a while, but you never make it to the next level.

Bible_Belt said:

Then you have zero chance of pulling this off.

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Just to be clear, I KNOW this isn't going to end up going anywhere.

That's part of the point.

I can see clearly where this is going to end up. She, on the other hand, is an idealistic young woman who hasn't been around long enough to realize that the odds are she will end up meeting someone in school, and that's the end of "us". Women in general don't have the ability to foresee such events.

As far as the friend being part of my social circle, I have to think about this long and hard before I kill the goose that lays the golden egg.

Her best friend lives with a good friend of mine. That circle of friends is an absolute GOLDMINE for me, since the best friend has had a thing for me in the past (and I have managed to circumvent any implied "claim" she has over me). I have hooked up with several of her friends (one being the 22yo) because of the competition dynamic.

That's not even counting my buddy and his g/f (who the best friend lives with) who feed me a steady stream of prospects. They wouldn't say anything, but it all revolves around this household.

BTW....it looks like the 22yo might be coming into town this weekend. Part of the plan is for us to "see what happens" (meaning I decide whether or not I want to be in a relationship with her).

I might have to tell her flat out that I am willing to explore a relationship with her, but I am not willing to put either one of us in the compromising position of being exclusive. Chances are she won't be down for that or she will at least try to stick to her guns with the "no sex" without a commitment thing , but if I can at least get my foot in the door there might be a chance that I could work my way into a casual arrangement, if she thinks there is at least "something" there.

Well depending on her interest level you can always take the deny deny deny route. If her IL is high enough she will choose to believe you and she will end up beginning to regret her friend for being the constant nag.

I've seen this happen and work but the key has to be the women has to have high enough IL. Given your short history, I don't think this is the case. A women with high enough IL will allow her husband to cheat as long as he denies denies and vehemently denies and never puts it where she can see it. But you have to have high enough IL.

If you don't, then I would just move on, its not worth the headaches and hassles.

STR8UP said:

That's the only glitch in this little plan.....her best friend lives here and is part of one of my social circles that feeds me with a constant stream of new women.

Matter of fact, I had a little party last night and the 22yo's best friend was there.

Another female friend of mine was also there, and we all went downtown for a couple of hours after the party.

This "other" female friend of mine happens to be someone who I have actuallly never had sex with, but by the way we interact, most people assume we are fukking.

So last night we are walking to the bar. On the way there, I slapped the ass of the best friend. I don't remember exactly how it went down, but my other female friend saw me do it and punched me and acted a little pissy. Best friend sees this, and avoids me all night cause she thought my other friend was staking her claim or something.

So I roll out of bed and I'm not online 2 minutes and 22yo sends me an IM asking if I was having sex with the other chick.

Point is, I DO have to be careful if I am going to be able to pull this off.

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Regardles of what you decide to do with the 22-year-old girl...the real issue is the drama you live.

Maybe you should start acting like a REAL man and associate yourself with male friends. Your "Sex and the City" lifestyle with your female friends is denying you from using healthy and positive masculinity. I have not watch Sex and the City enough (and have not desire to do that), so I am not sure if you are more of a Charlotte or Miranda.