Constantly getting flaked on!

So I have been trying to meet women, and set up dates. However, I seem to be flaked on at a constant basis, to the point where it is getting ridiculous. Some examples from just the last month:

1. A girl that I know through a mutual social group sends me a long detailed e-mail, and asks if I "fancy going out someday this weekend or better
next week?". I send her two text invites to some group things that I am doing with friends, and she brushes me off both times. She then says she will text me the next time she wants to do something ... You guessed it, haven't heard from her since.

2. Met a girl who had just arrived in my city, and we seemed to hit it off quite well the first night. She then texted me a few days later asking if I was free. I was actually catching up with a female friend that night who is a HB9.5 (but unfortunately in a LTR) but invited her along. She ended up bring along some English guy she had just met. She seemed to get upset for some reason, and then left. We had arranged to meet up on the Monday, but (you guessed it) never heard back from her. After sending her a few text invites to stuff, which were all ignored, I deleted her from my phone.

3. Met another girl from the same social group who I didn't pay much attention to. She ended sending me an invite to see a film tonight. I said yes, because she seemed keen, only to have her cancel two hours because she was "not feeling well". She did invite me to a group thing tomorrow, but I told her that I was already booked.

4. Contacted a girl who seemed quite keen to see if she was free to catch up. Her response was to say that she had a lot of things going on at the moment, and then said "just don't wait for me... if you have other things
to plan, just plan them. I'll let you know when I have
some time (even at the last minute) and we'll see if we
can meet.". Is it just me or does this sound like a flake just waiting to happen?

So any tips on why all this flaking is happening? It is really beginning to p*** me off!

One thing:

Firefly said:

1. A girl that I know through a mutual social group sends me a long detailed e-mail, and asks if I "fancy going out someday this weekend or better
next week?". I send her two text invites to some group things that I am doing with friends, and she brushes me off both times. She then says she will text me the next time she wants to do something ... You guessed it, haven't heard from her since.

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I don't think she was talking about going out with some friends. Should have just taken her somewhere yourself. She might have taken your idea as a hint of rejection.

Another thing:

We had arranged to meet up on the Monday, but (you guessed it) never heard back from her.

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Arranged to meet up where? Did you actually go there? Was she there? I don't see what not hearing back from her has to do with anything.

Plus, not two weeks ago, I had a woman cancel on me 20 minutes beforehand because of a headache. She immediately counter-offered for the next night, and we had a great time.

Another thing, when a woman asks you out, flakes seem to become more likely.

Yet another thing, read these,

From Tyler Durden:
http://www.sosuave.net/forum/showthread.php?t=129725
From Allen Thompson:
http://www.sosuave.com/articles/persistence.htm
And this guy:
http://www.sosuave.net/forum/showthread.php?t=81724

Why are inviting these women on group dates. That's why they are flaking on you. They want a one-on-one date.

Nelford said:

Why are inviting these women on group dates. That's why they are flaking on you. They want a one-on-one date.

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agreed. plus you took a girl who was interested in on a first date with your female friend. that seems a little strange.

Phyzzle said:

I don't think she was talking about going out with some friends. Should have just taken her somewhere yourself. She might have taken your idea as a hint of rejection.

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Just trying to show value here ... I was already in the city, and had a bunch of friends there so thought I would invite her along. Not sure if this was a mistake. Anyway, wouldn't the rejection have made her more keen according to DJ theory?

Phyzzle said:

Another thing:

Arranged to meet up where? Did you actually go there? Was she there? I don't see what not hearing back from her has to do with anything.

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We had agreed to meet up on the day, and to work out the details on the day. I tried calling her and left a message but no response.

Phyzzle said:

Plus, not two weeks ago, I had a woman cancel on me 20 minutes beforehand because of a headache. She immediately counter-offered for the next night, and we had a great time.

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Good for you dude! Unfortunately, I don't seem to be getting any counter-offers, more "I will contact you when I am free" type stuff.

Phyzzle said:

Another thing, when a woman asks you out, flakes seem to become more likely.

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Not sure what you mean by this?

BobFuest said:

agreed. plus you took a girl who was interested in on a first date with your female friend. that seems a little strange.

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Well, I had already arranged to meet with the friend. The girl called and asked what I was doing, and I told her that I was going out for drinks with this friend but she was welcome to come along. Perhaps I should have jsut told her I was busy?

The girl called and asked what I was doing, and I told her that I was going out for drinks with this friend but she was welcome to come along. Perhaps I should have jsut told her I was busy?

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Yep.

I see this often enough in these forums: girl calls, asks what are you doing later, the guy has plans but is willing to either amend them, include her or toss them out or babbles out whatever he's up to... this has to stop!

The answer is, "I'm busy. But how's next Monday?"

Don't accept immediate dates. You signal that you're too available and have nothing going on. It's almost like a test to see if you have a life.

It could be that the date she was to have canceled on her, so now she's looking for something else to do. You may be third on her list.

They may be interested in seeing you, or they may just be asking to see if you do have things going on for yourself or not. So that's why we counter offer, to see if we can get a date out of it or not.

Only accept incoming dates that are for about a week ahead of time.

You want to demonstrate higher value? You don't always need for her to see another woman on your arm to do that. Let her IMAGINATION work for you. Imagination is a wicked thing.

"He's busy? Wouldn't tell me what he's busy doing... Hmmmm... probably 'busy' with that new girl that looks like a Playboy model in the office he seems to like, I'll bet! He's probably having wild, great sex with her tonight!"

We had agreed to meet up on the day, and to work out the details on the day. I tried calling her and left a message but no response.

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Never make a date without nailing down the details.

You leave yourself open to this and other things going wrong.

Anyway, wouldn't the rejection have made her more keen according to DJ theory?

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When it's HER calling YOU for a date, DON'T reject it (unless she's asking you out at the last minute).

Only accept incoming dates that are for about a week ahead of time.

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Never make a date without nailing down the details.

You leave yourself open to this and other things going wrong.

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OK, sounds solid.

But... isn't there also DJ advice posted here about NOT having structured planned in advance dates, that gives them MORE time to flake?

I.e.: You asking her impromptu out for coffee or shopping or something YOU were doing anyhow, so if she flakes you're not out any investment? Or does it only apply if YOU ask her, not her asking you?

Thoughts and rationale?

isn't there also DJ advice posted here about NOT having structured planned in advance dates, that gives them MORE time to flake?

I.e.: You asking her impromptu out for coffee or shopping or something YOU were doing anyhow, so if she flakes you're not out any investment? Or does it only apply if YOU ask her, not her asking you?

Thoughts and rationale?

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"MORE" time to flake? How much time DOES a woman need in order to flake anyhow? LOL

Women usually know that they're going to flake as you're making the date with them.

It sounds like you're confusing two concepts as being the same thing. According to your example, the way to ask a woman out is to not "ask" (as in "would you like to grab a coffee?"), but to "invite" her to join you ("let's have coffee next Tuesday"). That's not about flaking per se.

About flaking, when you invite her to come along and join you for the same day or following few days, here's the risk you run:

She may already have plans or work or something scheduled. It's LESS likely that she'll already have plans set for a week from now, so when you go for a date about a week away, it's MORE likely you'll get a yes.

Conversely, say you ask her out for later today (or for sometime in the next couple of days). She's more likely to already have plans. So, she's more likely to turn you down. Why then set yourself up where the odds are less favorable to you?

Also, not to be overlooked, is this: If she says "no", you're hoping she'll counter offer because that's the only good way this will continue... but if she doesn't... the thing is, you don't know if she's saying "No" because she's genuinely busy or if it's because she's not interested. However, when you ask for about a week away, where odds are she doesn't have things scheduled, and she says "No", it's more likely that she's just saying that and not interested.

So by setting a date about a week ahead becomes a way to gauge her interest as well as minimizing flaking.

So I asked out another girl who was coming back into town with the following message:

"Hey there., wanna grab drinks when you get back to town? I am free this Sunday - Does Sunday work for you? LMK"

and got back the following response:

"Yeah, I get back Sat eve so Sunday does work for me. Would like to catch up with you. Sorry I have been out of touch. I'll send you a msg on Sunday for details".

Keeping Mr Me's advice in mind, I messaged her back, offering a definite time and place to meet on Sunday. She did not respond. Should I just assume she will flake, and male other plans?

Yeah, always have a Plan B.

"I'll send you a msg on Sunday for details"

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In my experience, that, and stuff like "call me on X-day to confirm" usually means that she's waiting to hear about other offers and will weigh them up before responding to you. Or it could be that she's waiting to see how well she feels on Sunday after the travelling.

When you get a lot of offers to go to fun places or events, you'll do something similar too.

From now on, it's the three hour rule. A chick doesn't get any more than a three hour notice until she proves herself reliable.

You- " Hey, I'm going to XXXXX tonite. Wanna meet me for a drink"

Her- "Well I have to go do YYYYY with my friend"

You- "Ok no prob, talk to you soon"

Of course if she says "yes" then you're in. The likelihood of her flaking is MUCH less.

If she counters that's fine too. Cause all you gotta do is turn it right back around on her and do what chicks do. "Well, I might have to go do ZZZZZ with my friend, but call me that afternoon and I'll see if I can get free".

If you ask her out for that night a second time and she is busy, she will will either get the hint and step up to the plate, or it's a done deal, forget about her.

Women are creatures of the moment. Everyone always says "Well you should only be dealing with HIGH INTEREST women" Thats all good and fine, but you have to spend time with them to get interest. The key is to ambush her during the week when there's a good chance she has nothing else going on. That way she doesn't have time to make plans with five other people for the same day the two of you have plans.

Sucks that you can't rely on people, but that's the way it is these days.

Mr. Me said:

Never make a date without nailing down the details.

You leave yourself open to this and other things going wrong.

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THis is GREAT advice, NAIL down ALL the details. Never give women any wriggle room otherwise they will take it when their anxieties get hold of them the day before the date.

"Hey there., wanna grab drinks when you get back to town? I am free this Sunday - Does Sunday work for you? LMK"

and got back the following response:

"Yeah, I get back Sat eve so Sunday does work for me. Would like to catch up with you. Sorry I have been out of touch. I'll send you a msg on Sunday for details".

Keeping Mr Me's advice in mind, I messaged her back, offering a definite time and place to meet on Sunday. She did not respond. Should I just assume she will flake, and male other plans?

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That "I'll send you a msg on Sunday for details" sure sounds like she's going to flake. I mean, she could've written: "Sunday does work for me. Would like to catch up with you. Where should we meet?" Right?

The details should've been part of the first message.

DON'T communicate with her now.

Now that you've sent them, that was, IMO, the second smartest move, so... now you have to show up. Give her half an hour, bring something to read. If she doesn't show up, you had a little coffee break. No biggie.

The first message also could be tighter and stronger if it wasn't in "request mode". More like:

"Hey there, let's grab drinks when you get back to town. I'm free this Sunday at 6. Meet me at Martini's Bar."

THEN you can see what her response is to that DIRECT OFFER.

Would it be "I'll have to let you know. Let's talk again on Sunday morning first/Let's confirm" = she's gonna flake. She either already knows she's going to flake by not answering your call when you confirm or, like Str8Up posted, she's looking to see if something better comes along by then.

"Can't make it Sunday at 6. But how's Monday?" = Good counter-offer.

"Can't make it Sunday. Are there any other days you're available?" = THIS IS A TEST. She wants to see if you have a life.

"Yeah! Sunday at 6 at Martini's! Sounds great!" = she may actually show up!

Here's an email exchange I just went through with someone I haven't met yet to give you a real life example:

Me: "Let's get together over a cup of coffee for a little chat and see if we hit
it off. I'm busy the rest of the week but Sunday around 4 is good for me."

She counter-offered with specifics:

SHE: "Are you free Monday? We can meet mid way for a drink (she names a place) or coffee at (she names another place)."

ME: "Monday at 6 at (the coffee place). Until then, Mr. Me"

jophil28 said:

THis is GREAT advice, NAIL down ALL the details. Never give woman and wriggle room otherwise they will take it when their anxieties get hold of them the day before the date.

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I thought that giving them some room would be a good test for their IL in you. If they can flake but choose not to, that means they have high IL. If your plan is too tight, that makes them come along regardless of their actual IL, wouldn't it be harder to gauge that?

I have said this many of times and I will say it again.

You put yourself in a position to get flaked the minute you finish your first date.

If a woman has high IL in you, she will make it KNOWN on the first date.

I never get FLAKED on. I do not say this in a ****y or demeaning way. Here are the reasons why,

I will only ask for a second date if the girl shows SIGNIFICANT interest on the first. Otherwise, why would I call? There are so many other options. These tell tale signs include but are not limited to:

1) Very attentive
2) Posture
3) Kino
4) Eye Contact
5) Constant Laughing
6) Seeking Approval
7) Seeking Validation
8) Asks what you like in a woman?

Among a thousand more.

A WOMAN WITH HIGH IL WILL MAKE IT KNOWN ON THE FIRST DATE.

If you are not sure, GUESS WHAT? She does not have HIGH IL. Do not call again.

Besides,

If a girl did flake, why would you care if you have other viable options?

You only concern yourself with rejection in a SCARCITY frame of mind.

The problem is not only in CHASING uninterested girls but in your lack of perceived options.

How many more FLAKING threads can we put in this forum before it is understood?

I thought that giving them some room would be a good test for their IL in you. If they can flake but choose not to, that means they have high IL. If your plan is too tight, that makes them come along regardless of their actual IL,

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That sounds like a fairly intelligent question.

But it has some flaw in its reasoning.

This: "If your plan is too tight, that makes them come along regardless of their actual IL"

Jitterbug, no one "makes" or compels a woman to come out and meet you if she's not interested in meeting you. Not unless you're maybe offering her a $50 dinner or a role in your new movie.

They can ALWAYS flake BUT...

when you run a tight ship, then you can tell. If you run it loose and messy and leave gaping holes, then it becomes difficult to figure out where and what's going wrong, because you're contributing to the mess.

So, using the example given, if you invite her to meet you but don't give the time and place and leave that for later. Then when later comes and you can't reach her or she doesn't call you, is it because her cell phone died or the message you left with the details wasn't received in a timely fashion (sometimes I've gotten VM messages 5 days after they left it!) or was the message all broken up and she figures you stiffed her or WHAT...

But if you nail it all down up front, then if she tries to maneuver out or gives a bogus excuse or simply flakes, you've pegged her.

I see what you mean, thanks for clarifying. I wasn't sure about the definition of "tight" here. I'd be tight about time & meeting place, but the actual plan is always flexible, so that I can see if they're there to meet me, or because they just like the event or venue I'm inviting them to.

Well, I recieved no response to my second message, so I resent it to her again the day after. This time, she confirmed and said she would be there. Guess we will see tomorrow if she is or not ...