Objective: SoSuave Pentagon Hearing: Dealing with ALTERNATIVE VIEWPOINTS!

The SoSuave Pentagon Hearing on ALTERNATIVE VIEWPOINTS:



<<<<<< While at a recent SoSuave Intelligence Meeting, presided over by Commander PENKITTEN, Interrogation officer IQQI, and Special Forces Operative LOVELY LADY-----The soldier known only as VICTORY UNLIMITED was asked to address all in attendance. It had come to the attention of these decorated officers that dissension had arisen amongst the ranks over boldly expressed "differences" of opinions. And as a result, the first item on the agenda for Victory Unlimited to speak on was to provide an answer to this question:

How should the soldiers here correctly process Internal Intel bandied about on the Internet Forums?

And THIS is what he SAID: >>>>>>>>>



"Alternative views CAN be very valuable for us here. Sometimes, the injection of an alternate viewpoint can serve a variety of purposes:

1. Alternative views can cause posters who have a rather extremist view on some things to adopt a more holistic perception of the subject at hand. And subsequently, that original poster may see some value in taking a more "nuianced" and less "balls to the wall" approach to that topic than he would have considered taking before. Thus, bettering HIMSELF, inadvertantly.

Extremism in ANY direction is usually a one-way ticket to either eventual failure, self-sabotage, or self-destruction.

2. Alternate viewpoints that strike a blow that FREES the hearts and minds of readers who may need to be delivered from the prison of "HERO or HEROINE Worship" is ultimately, A GOOD THING. An alternate viewpoint can help us realize that ownership of COMPLETE KNOWLEDGE is the sole property of NO ONE. We can all learn something from each other (whether the lesson be positive or negative)----and we can benefit in some way as the result of this.

And once we realize THIS----we can move on in the realization that many of us are NOT here for the purposes of trying to be "JUST LIKE", or "EVEN BETTER", than our heroes----but to use our "heroes'" accomplishments as inspiration to accomplish things of our own----to BETTER "OURSELVES".

Ultimately, Soldiers, we should want to be our OWN goddammed HEROES, shouldn't we???

3. Lastly, the "invasion" of alternate viewpoints can sometimes reveal personal, deep-seated issues that MAY exist within those who "read" them----and take serious issue with them. Many times when there is a vehement, overly heated, or damn near VIOLENT reaction to an alternate viewpoint-----it can be an indicator that the person who reacts this way is either too unhealthily extreme and/or too emotionally invested in his own views, OR, is too unhealthily extreme and/or too emotionally invested in actively "hating on" the person who had the sheer audacity to express that alternate viewpoint.

And when this happens, alternative views are then ONLY seen as OPPOSING-----and the WAR OF THE WORDS begins...

Either way, nothing reveals how sensitive a "VIEWPOINT NERVE" really is until it's actually "touched" in some way. Whether it be bitterness from past hurts, the shock from seeing a sudden flash of light that reveals the evidence of having a severe case of tunnelvision, or simply an ingrained, adverse reaction to WHO or WHAT that poster represents to them-----the results remain the same for the offended party:

Intelligent discussion takes a BACK SEAT, emotional equilibrium is lost, while PRIDE, EGO, AND BLIND PASSION all struggle to grab THE WHEEL-----each fighting for control----each trying to steer the conversation in a direction that will ultimately benefit NO ONE.

So, no matter WHAT the poster who posts an alternative view may have initially meant to accomplish, how we process what has been "said" still remains OUR OWN individual choice.

I would only ask that we all show greater dilligence in excersizing our awareness------so that we may CHOOSE WISELY, soldiers.


Peace...one day."

Alternative viewpoints are a good thing for any community to have so it doesn't become mired in too much of a one track focus that can lead to outright fanatacism over time.

There I agree with you general.

Where I don't agree is how you've placed Iqqi in your military.

I rather liken her to an enemy combatant, spy, or propaganda officer slipped behind the lines to stir dissent among the troops.

Divide and conquer.

She is not a good and healthy part of this community and her alternative viewpoints are simply made to p!ss people off and cause the foolish males who take to her advice to wallow in an AFC mindset.

She is a troll not a true voice of alternative point of view and should be regarded as such.

A clown to be laughed at and occasionally paid attention to during the rare once in a blue moon time she posts something worthwhile but nothing more.

This is a discussion board. The Wikipedia definition of discussion is:

Discourse is communication that goes back and forth (from the Latin, discursus, "running to and from"), such as debate or argument.

Communication that runs back and forth implies that many of the arguers/side-takers have certain points of view but are willing to share and modify their opinions. What is important to me here is the word modify, because it means conceding, taking back, and ultimately also admitting failed logic or plain wrongness.

Extremist points of views are, for the very reason that they allow no such modifications, extremist. Thus, extremist points of view and opinions do not have a place on this board.

Particularly, I would like to address the topic of truth. Nobody has truth in their hands, it is not a law of nature that truth even exists they way we see it. All too often, we confuse truth with reality, but our reality is often heavily influenced by our communication. I will not elaborate this in this post, but I am working on a post addressing this issue.

Extremist points of view usually imply or ******ddly claim that they contain the absolute truth. Well, historically, whenever truth was claimed, great disaster followed. Unfortunately, followers of "truth" are often too emotionally invested (as VU put it) that there is no reasoning with them. Thus, they actually become useless to the discussion board, as the "back and forth" is, in fact, a one-way-street.

So ultimately, what are we here for? Most of us are here to better out lives, particularly with women. I have said it before and will say it again, the one thing SS has going for it is that it teaches you about life in general, not only about women, and thus I would like to encourage the "life" discussion part of the board, not the

First date -- what to do?
I think she likes me
I totally screwed up this one!

type of discussion. They are helpful, but also open the door to any extremist discussion about either what the OP should do or what he shouldn't do. As most of these posts are restrospect, the door to the "truth" is opened widely
("I would have done it differently because I'm a real player...." type of response).

Extremist points of views are, for the very reason that they allow no such modifications, extremist.

I said this earlier because this means that extremist posters are not here to learn, because they can't learn. They do not contribute to the discussion.

I think many people agree that alternative viewpoints are good for the discussion (they contribute by nature to it).

What is disturbing to me that many people notice a cultural change to SS, a change away from the Pook and AD and all the BIBLE posters. I have not seen a bible-worthy post in a long time, and the Bible has remained unchanged for a long time as well. We should get it up again (no pun) and contribute and pool our experiences.

That is what I want for the future.

This is a discussion board. The Wikipedia definition of discussion is:

Discourse is communication that goes back and forth (from the Latin, discursus, "running to and from"), such as debate or argument.

Communication that runs back and forth implies that many of the arguers/side-takers have certain points of view but are willing to share and modify their opinions. What is important to me here is the word modify, because it means conceding, taking back, and ultimately also admitting failed logic or plain wrongness.

Extremist points of views are, for the very reason that they allow no such modifications, extremist. Thus, extremist points of view and opinions do not have a place on this board.

Particularly, I would like to address the topic of truth. Nobody has truth in their hands, it is not a law of nature that truth even exists they way we see it. All too often, we confuse truth with reality, but our reality is often heavily influenced by our communication. I will not elaborate this in this post, but I am working on a post addressing this issue.

Extremist points of view usually imply or downright claim that they contain the absolute truth. Well, historically, whenever truth was claimed, great disaster followed. Unfortunately, followers of "truth" are often too emotionally invested (as VU put it) that there is no reasoning with them. Thus, they actually become useless to the discussion board, as the "back and forth" is, in fact, a one-way-street.

So ultimately, what are we here for? Most of us are here to better out lives, particularly with women. I have said it before and will say it again, the one thing SS has going for it is that it teaches you about life in general, not only about women, and thus I would like to encourage the "life" discussion part of the board, not the

First date -- what to do?
I think she likes me
I totally screwed up this one!

type of discussion. They are helpful, but also open the door to any extremist discussion about either what the OP should do or what he shouldn't do. As most of these posts are restrospect, the door to the "truth" is opened widely
("I would have done it differently because I'm a real player...." type of response).

Extremist points of views are, for the very reason that they allow no such modifications, extremist.

I said this earlier because this means that extremist posters are not here to learn, because they can't learn. They do not contribute to the discussion.

I think many people agree that alternative viewpoints are good for the discussion (they contribute by nature to it).

What is disturbing to me that many people notice a cultural change to SS, a change away from the Pook and AD and all the BIBLE posters. I have not seen a bible-worthy post in a long time, and the Bible has remained unchanged for a long time as well. We should get it up again (no pun) and contribute and pool our experiences.

thehexman said:

What is disturbing to me that many people notice a cultural change to SS, a change away from the Pook and AD and all the BIBLE posters. I have not seen a bible-worthy post in a long time, and the Bible has remained unchanged for a long time as well. We should get it up again (no pun) and contribute and pool our experiences.

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i think rollo, victory unlimited, karma , interceptor have all made threads that should be updated in the bible.
there are other posts who i also think have made threads that should be updated in the bible.
we are working on trying to come up with a new sort of bootcamp , where one works on his self first and foremost, but it is still in the works.
yes, there have been cultural changes that have sifted ss since the last update to the bible area.

Penny don't leave yourself out of the mix. You've contributed more here than 99.999% of any of us. We argue, b!tch, chit chat, confide in, laugh at and remedy issues with women. You're a pretty smart cookie and very forthright with responses from the femanine perspective.

This is critical if we're to grow and acknowledge both sides of a dialogue.

That said, I think it's extremely important to have anb objectivity with anything you're talking about or contemplating a resolution which is why I always take a deep breath and THINK about what I plan to say before it comes out of my piehole. My mind to mouth filter is relatively infant but growing more and more by the minute.

Special Agent Fingers reporting for duty!

*salutes VU*

We must all become unshakeable MEN to the point where trolls make us laugh.. our frame must become so grounded and real that no one can upset or get to us...least of all an anonymous person on the web!

I'm not sure what happened here really. I know I've been a little out of the loop.
(sorry, guys and girls, I will post up my contributions to penny's request when I have the time. I have a lot going on. But I assure you, that I will not disappoint.)

But my feeling is that there is a core group that have a lot of insight and deserve to be heard, and some less frequent contributors that also share some of their most intimate and personal experiences with us too.

I do feel that it is a good thing to have alternative viewpoints, as it makes us reevaluate our stance on the issue, or make one if we didn't in the first place.

It is true, that quite often we go the 'straw man' route sometimes, and this is never a good thing.
And truthfully, there are some less than helpful and insightful offerings from time to time.
But people will post what they feel is relevant. It is up to US personally to decide if it is relevant to us or not.
If so, then if you feel like contributing, do so.
If not, then move on and look for somethign that resonates with you personally.

Everyone needs to be heard.
It's up to you to decide if YOU personally want to hear what they have to say.
If you agree, fine, if Not, fine as well.

I have often noticed that people who get a little too adversarial against others beliefs often do so out of insecurity in their own.
think about that.

"He doth protest too much."????



I know that some of the stuff I post is not really for the general masses.
And I accept that. I can live with it.
(truth be told, part of it is intentional really)

I can only hope that someone out there reads what I offer and finds something helpful, if so, then great, if not, then my message does not resonate with the reader at that moment in time.
Some day it will....

I am in the process of a lot of breakthroughs, and will post what I feel is relevant and perhaps even necessary to share.
I can only hope that my fellow forum members continue to extend me common courtesy and respect, as I strive to do the same for them.

I have made some incredible and wonderful friends here.

There is more good here than we know what to do with.

In some cases, there is a familial like bond for some of us even.
If we can, let us use this knowledge and wisdom and the experiences we have had for the betterment of our selves and any forum members who may need some guidance and help.
I have seen shining examples of true Gentleman behavior and Ladylike behavior here, and I am still in wonderment of the caliber of people (and their deep thinking and inquisitve minds) who frequent the forum.
For this I am thankful.
I have made my contributions because I had to.
I will continue to do so in a more pronounced effort soon enough,

I want to help because I have to.



I can't say much for the main DJ forum, but defnitely for the Mature Man forum.
But sometimes there needs to be a little revolt to make us stand up for what we believe in , believe it or not.
Sometimes we are put to the test.
And under the pressure of that test will our TRUE Character and VALUES emerge.
Think about that.




So here's to friends, and brothers and sisters in the continuing fight for the Enlightenment of All.


(KS, when are we having that spicy tuna and brewskis? )

I agree that we need alternative views but my question to VU & Co. is how come the majority of posters can get along & have friendly discussion with the other women on this forum (penkitten & lovelady etc..) but whenever IQQI speaks, it almost incites a riot?

I use to be a volunteer firefighter and they taught me where there is smoke, there is fire. Shouldn't this tell you something? So can you explain to me why this is so?

MacAvoy said:

I use to be a volunteer firefighter and they taught me where there is smoke, there is fire. Shouldn't this tell you something? So can you explain to me why this is so?

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I used to be a volunteer firefighter too Mac!! Sometimes it's best to let those pipes play on...and accept that fires are going to happen, but it's important to be there to put them out!

Yo Mac,


I had hoped that many would see ONE answer to your question in the number three bullet point of my original post. But as you have already said, this isn't really about IQQI so much as it's about a climate of open hostility (not just simple disagreement) towards the presentation of alternate viewpoints.

Unlike some of the other ladies you just mentioned, IQQI's posting style CAN tend to be kinda "in your face"----which is her right. But as a result, some guys feel "challenged, irritated, annoyed, or whatever" by this----which is THEIR right.

No one on here agrees with EVERYTHING that people say on this board. And like you have also mentioned in your thread, we ALL can be guilty of pissing the next person off. But this post, and other posts I have made on this subject are in no way a blanket endorsement of IQQI's, or anybody else's particular views (just my OWN...lol).

Because as we all know: NO ONE corners the market on TRUTH, let alone on "OPINION."

But what I find amusing about some of IQQI's posts is that she can be every bit as BLUNT as some of the dudes I see on here. And some of the dudes I'm speaking of (who shall remain "nameless") are actually some very POPULAR posters. It would appear that some here can dish it out just fine----but they can't seem to "take it" very well. lol

Is it the fact that IQQI is female that seems to AMPLIFY some men's reaction to her "delivery" at times? Who knows? Only the guys who feel compelled to engage her in these back and forth "personal" posting battles would know for sure...

Granted, it COULD be just my imagination, but it appears to me that certain posters here allow themselves to become SO incensed by SOME of her comments (in particular) that it is often "they" who begin to deviate from the thread topics, choosing to instead embark upon yet another leg of their "let's put IQQI in her place" campaign.

It is my observation that our time HAS better uses, men. I don't think it's wise for any of us to let ANYONE, whether it is on an internet board, or in REAL LIFE to have the power to change our whole goddammed mood and/or demeanor-----just by their disagreement with us, or their very presence alone.

For instance, there are quite a few men on here that I in particular have MUCH disagreement with------but you'd never KNOW just how violently I disagree with them based on my posts, though. Why? Because I recognize that my "anger" will not build a bridge to mutual understanding, but rather, it would burn it to a crisp. And I see no real lasting value in making any unneccessary enemies here----only the "NECESSARY" ones.
Lastly, writing THIS has made me recognize yet another possible value in hearing alternate viewpoints:

4. Alternate Viewpoints can sometimes act as a crucible, a fiery furnace, or a safe, but pressurized, testing opportunity to challenge just HOW strongly we really believe in the the things we "say" that we do.

Because "IF" we actually do allow ourselves to hear the alternate view, and we actually do allow ourselves to honestly weigh whether it has validity or not, and we STILL choose to believe the way that we do------then our beliefs will only grow stronger.

For everything we learn, everything we believe, SHOULD be tested. For how else can we be assured that our foundational beliefs will stand us in good stead when we are faced with a REAL LIFE crisis----as opposed to simply some theoretical argument within the safety zone of a place like of SoSuave?

The key to us growing in this regard is hidden somewhere between our ability to retain a certain level of objectivity concerning our OWN beliefs, and our willingness to try to keep our composure when those beliefs are put under pressure.

In other words...the composure of a man should not "CRACK" so easily.

As a footnote to this excellent post, let me just say that the composure of a man only cracks when someone exposes a chink in his armor. To answer MacAvoy's query, that smoke you see is rising from the flames of defensiveness and insecurity... a deep and disturbing need to reassert your world views to the point where it's not clear who you are trying to convince... your adversary or yourself!

There will always be dissension and debate. If you guys think someone like Iqqi is bad news, then you are in for some serious disappointment! Conflict is a part of life, but knowing how to negotiate and use it to your advantage is a telltale sign of inner resilience and self-control

IMHO, if you get this worked up over words on a screen, its speaks VOLUMES about how you handle yourself away from the computer, and seriously calls everything else you say into question. It shows you can't handle a REALITY CHECK!

Keep in mind that patience, understanding and diplomacy are very powerful allies in this game. If you know exactly how to handle and relate to people in any given situation, then you are ten steps ahead of these so-called players who lose their cool at the drop of a hat.

Anger and spite are just misdirected energy. You should really be mad at yourself for not having your life in order, but instead its easier to toss rocks at the first person to point out the massive holes in your game.

Before putting up such these defenses and making such an elaborate fuss, ask yourself what you are really upset about?

If we are truly grounded in ourselves and content with where we stand as MEN.. who can really take that away from us with mere words?

Interceptor said:

(KS, when are we having that spicy tuna and brewskis? )

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I go on vacation for eleven days at the end of the month. You let me know when and where!

I live smack in the middle so it's a maximum five hour drive each direction.

Thanks for taking the time to post that VU & the footnote as well Senor. I agree with both of what your saying. For the most part, I haven't had any run ins lately with iqqi because I don't see it adding anything. Like I mentioned in the other thread, I chose her because she seems to have the most adversaries by but no means is she the only one.

Its unfortunate that more people can't ignore someone that they know they can only argue with.

penkitten said:

i think rollo, victory unlimited, karma , interceptor have all made threads that should be updated in the bible.
there are other posts who i also think have made threads that should be updated in the bible.

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Yes, you are right, that is true. I got so carried away with my rant that I forgot about them. You too often make good arguments. I apologize. It's just often hard to find these posts between all the others.

My theories relating sales and dating were initially met with resistance here. Now they have been accepted and integrated into the forum.

I think any alternative view point will gain recognition in time, given the poster remains clear and non-reactive.

Good post.

Truer words have never been spoken VU - FREE LMS!

VU, in a world of lies, victories are unlimited, but if only truth is present!


.

bump

I hope you guys don't mind me contributing a little. Again, just something I read awhile back that blew my mind away.

http://www.rockies.net/~spirit/images/lady-hag.gif

i'm reminded of a book called the Seven Habits of Highly Successful People - by Stephen Covey.

Dr. Covey asked a classroom of students to tell him what they see in the picture. One side of the crowd said all they see was a beautiful lady. While another only see an old hag. The arguments went back and forth. But what they can't see was that both crowds were right.

Sometimes, two people can look at the exact same thing and see totally different things.

A lot of marriages and bf/gf relationships get into arguments all the time. The only problem is, neither side are willing to see that they're neither right or wrong. They hold on too tightly to their own views and will not stand objectively to see others' point of view.

One of the major reason why my exwife and I divorced was because of this. I wanted to save up for the future, postpone gratification for now, she wanted to enjoy life first, you're only young once. Who's right? Who wins? NOBODY. We just never took the time to hear each other out and balance things out. And we both lost. And I lost one of the greatest woman who'd ever came into my life. (you know the fish that got away?)

I didn't mean to tell you my sappy story... I apologize.
but there are things to learn from someone else's views. Everybody, your wife, your parents, your teachers, even your children (even a 21yo poster) are entitled to their views. Give them the voice, let them be heard.

In life, there is no right nor wrong. Only what works and what doesn't work. What works for you may not necessarily work for me. vice versa. But it's inputs that we put together to enhance our own lives. Nobody knows everything. Pick what works for you and go from there.

Quite frankly, i feel so much smarter since coming here and that's mostly because I have accumulated so much wisdom from everybody who'd posted. And like they say, the best things in life are INDEED free.

In life, there is no right nor wrong.

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IMO, This is one of the most incorrect assumptions one can make.


Many people use the 'arbitrary and moral relativsm' argument to disconnect responsibilty for their actions.
Avoiding responsibilty DOES NOT make it 'ok'.

PRETENDING it's 'ok' does not make it RIGHT. Nor acceptable.

PRETENDING the other party is NOT hurt is cynical, and detached, and assuming incorrectly.



Raping a baby is wrong.

Killing someone (intentionally, Im not including self defense here) is wrong.

Lying , cheating, and stealing are wrong.

Pretending to be someone you are not, is wrong.




How do you feel after hurting someone? Or being hurt?


If you feel good, there's something wrong.


If you dont feel good, congratulations, thats what you should be feeling...

.....like a decent human being.

If you dont feel anything, its STILL Wrong even if you're so disconnected to yourself and the rest of humanity that you cant even RECOGNIZE what the Hell you are doing.





Who is willing to sell themselves out for instant gratification?




And relating specifically to viewpoints..
..basically, if this 'argument' were really true for everyone.

There would be no need for doctors.

Or lawyers.

Or scientists.

Or anything.

Because we wouldnt need them, right?

Because according to the premise of 'no right and wrong' and 'everyone's viewpoint is valid' , then why go to a doctor when you're ill?
Why not just try to fool yourself you dont have cancer? or diabetes? or arteroslcerosis?
Or have your next door neighbor tell you "oh yeah, you dont have cancer. Dont worry about it. Youre fine."
Why dont people do that?

Some people's 'opinions' and 'ideas' are WAY more VALID than others.


And referring to forums...
...it IS true....

YOU DONT KNOW WHO THE FVCK THE OTHER PERSON ON THE COMPUTER IS.....HOW CAN YOU TRUST THEM?