I don't know whether to laugh or cry.....

Went out with some friends tonite.

My one friend brought along a couple. Seemed happy enough. Nice enough guy. The girl was pretty and had a pleasant demeanor.

Oddly, I sensed that this chick was vibing me. Maybe not even vibing me, but sending out "availability signals". She WAS with her b/f, but you know when you just get that feeling......

For some reason during the night I had two people tell me I look exhausted. One of them happened to be another poster from this site that I ran into at a club, Deep Dish. The other was my female friend I went out with tonite.

so the end of the nite rolls around, we all go to get some pizza, and the chick from the couple comes up to me and tells me I look "sad". I told her I was just a little worn out, and she proceeds to tell me, "You know what you need? You need a husband and a boyfriend".

I was like WTF?????

At that point she looked around to make sure her b/f wasn't within earshot, and then she clarifies saying "well in your case maybe it's the opposite, a wife and a g/f".

So here we are walking back toward my place, and I quietly ask my lady friend if this chick (her friend) really has a b/f and a husband. Well I guess indeed she does! and the funny thing is, it's New Years and the guy she was with was the b/f! Walking down the street holding hands....her talking about how he was gonna fukk her silly later on.......

I dunno. I think I'm spent. I don't hold anything against this girl cause i see this sh!t happening every day, but at the same time it's simply another nail in the coffin for the idea of being able to maintain a decent relationship with a woman.

I've just about given up on the idea that MAYBE there might be one or two decent women out there who are honest and have integrity. It just seems like everywhere I look it's nothing but lying, cheating, and manipulative b!tches.

You guys can pretend all you want that the world is full of wonderful people ready to bend over backwards for you, but I see differently. ESPECIALLY when it comes to women.

Good luck with it all fellas. I'm giving up for awhile. Maybe I'll catch up with this stuff later. Until then, peace out.

HA! And what did I just post in the pyschopath thread???

Quote:
It's really scary for me to read all this, because it's like reading my own life. I have no moral compass, the only reason I don't go completely overboard is because the risk outweighs the gains. But once that threshold is surpassed, I might let it all loose. When I interact with people everything I do and say is calculated, when I talk with a chick/friends/co-workers I've already played out the conversation before hand I know what to say/how to lie to get the desired outcome. It's a game of chess for me.

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Aenigma said:

You sound like most women. Manipulative, calculating, and self-centered. Rather ironic, you denounce yourself for traits that we accept, and even expect out of a given gender. Double standards and lace curtin indeed.

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Most women being self-centered psychopaths?

Who Called it? ME!


LET'S HEAR IT FOR ME, RIGHT AGAIN!

:cheer: RA RA AENGIMA! AENGIMA! AENGIMA! RA RA AENGIMA! :cheer:

Hey STR8UP with your posts recently it seems to me like your not happy in your life in general. You work alot and it seems like you have not had the greatest success with woman lately. I think you need a vacation to get away for a while and clear your head. Maybe hit the weights and don't spend as much time at work. Happy Newyear

Laugh

so this girl comes to the party and everyone knows she is with her boyfriend.
then she goes around and interacts with peopel and is friendly.
and she tells you that you could use a wife then you wouldn't be so burned out.


im totally confused as to how any of this is bad. it sounds to me like she is just a friendly person.


i mean, if a woman is friendly to you and then doesn't suck your d*ck after does this make her an evil person?

You need a vacation brother. Get out of O-Town for a week or 2. When's the last time you were?

Rollo Tomassi said:

You need a vacation brother. Get out of O-Town for a week or 2. When's the last time you were?

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Yea, I'm going to say the same as well. You're wound up waaaaay too tight if you're letting something like a little infidelity bother you.

joekerr31 said:

so this girl comes to the party and everyone knows she is with her boyfriend.
then she goes around and interacts with peopel and is friendly.
and she tells you that you could use a wife then you wouldn't be so burned out.


im totally confused as to how any of this is bad. it sounds to me like she is just a friendly person.


i mean, if a woman is friendly to you and then doesn't suck your d*ck after does this make her an evil person?

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This has nothing to do with me, and everything to do with the rest of the world. You completely misread my post.

This is how it is. You can't win for losing. This chick was nice. I liked her as a person (what little I know of her). Although she was with her b/f I could sense her "roving eye". You know, the subtle looks, words, and gestures that a female throws out to let you know she's "available". But she's with her b/f.

So then at the end of the night she basically comes out and tells me she has a husband too. Well that would make sense! I wasn't imaging the buying signals! And she sounded serious when she insinuated that having a boyfriend and a husband was "good for you", a "cure for sadness".

I wasn't sad, I was tired. I didn't even feel tired, but with three people in one night making comments there must be something to it. She didn't know me so she thought I was sad. And she was trying to help me get over that by letting me in on HER secret.....that I need a wife and a g/f!

That pretty much sums it up. People are self indulgent. They live for the moment. They have little regard for other people's feelings, and it is often those who they supposedly "love" who they trample on the most.

It's like you can either play the role of self indulgent bastard YOURSELF and have a bunch of women chasing you, or you are going to be the one who gets trampled.

The only in between is apathy. Lately I alternate between apathy and frustration. Whats the point if you are always going to be frustrated with the way the world is, or if you are numb to it? Where is the middle ground?

Be a good person and attract good people? I've been a good person all my life and it's gotten me nowhere.

Rollo Tomassi said:

You need a vacation brother. Get out of O-Town for a week or 2. When's the last time you were?

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I was supposed to go out of town last year in October for a couple of days with the chick I was dating at the time who I knew wasn't into our "relationship" anymore (the one who moved away a month or so later and got married). She hadn't told me she was with this other dude at the time but I already knew so I canceled the trip. I was extremely disappointed because I was looking forward to that break. Since then it has been non stop. I get one or two days off per month if I'm lucky.

Yea, it's time for a break. Unfortunately I won't be getting out of town anytime soon so I'm gonna have to find some other way to escape. I'm gonna follow this thread till it dies and take a break from the forum as well.

I've been trying to talk about this off and on on this site.

Yes, there are "good" people out there. Yes, there IS good in the world.

But, if you go around EXPECTING "good," you are NOT going to see more good. A positive attitude is a good thing, FOR OURSELVES and what we are trying to do, to be, to accomplish.

On the other had, one's OWN desire for the world to be "good," for other people to be "good," changes nothing in reality other than our own perceptions. People are going to act as they act -- our wishing it otherwise is futile.

I'm not saying MOST people are "bad," or cheaters, or lazy, or stupid, or WHATEVER. I'm just saying that there ARE people with those traits, and not just a few. And we are going to run unto them, and be forced to interact with them. And YOU CAN'T TELL WHICH ONES THEY ARE Right AWAY.


You are GOING to continue to be "disappointed" if you don't accept this.

And nowhere can a man be more disappointed than in his relationships with women.

True there may be "good women" out there. But you cannot tell which ones they ARE. I might have met some - but I I'm not sure, now. It may take YEARS for a given woman's "dark side" to manifest itself to you. Sometimes, you learn of it right away, like SRT8UP last night (but I'm not sure she was really "bad.")

STR8UP, you KNOW this already, but your experience last night shows you haven't truly ACCEPTED it yet. You still WANT there to be "good women." This wishing you must stop.

Accept women for what they are and what they can offer. Expect no more. Love them, be with them, enjoy them --- even be kind to them & help them, even BEFRIEND them.

BUT, never forget what they are and what they are capable of. Expecting too much from them is unfair to them, but even MORE unfair to YOU.

Aenigma said:

Yea, I'm going to say the same as well. You're wound up waaaaay too tight if you're letting something like a little infidelity bother you.

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The infidelity didn't get to me. I know how things work. It's just that the more you see things like this happening the harder it is to have faith in humanity.

People say I hang with the wrong crowd which is absolute BS. The vast majority of my friends are as normal as they come. And everyone is still out screwing everyone else. Guys and girls. Jumping from one quick fix to the next, never finding what they are looking for, which doesn't even exist to begin with.

aliasguy said:

STR8UP, you KNOW this already, but your experience last night shows you haven't truly ACCEPTED it yet. You still WANT there to be "good women." This wishing you must stop.

Accept women for what they are and what they can offer. Expect no more. Love them, be with them, enjoy them --- even be kind to them & help them, even BEFRIEND them.

BUT, never forget what they are and what they are capable of. Expecting too much from them is unfair to them, but even MORE unfair to YOU.

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You are absolutely right.

I have talked in the past about not having expectations.

Problem is, if you can't ever expect that your partner or your friend or whoever you deal with regularly is going to play fair, well, that really sucks cause you're always gonna be looking behind your back. I hate that I have to do that, but no matter how much I watch my back it doesn't do anything to prevent sh!t from happening. Things are as they are.

Just a little more-----

I believe that the things we want MOST from women (other than sex) are the things that are, unfortunately, the things we must be most on guard about with regard to expectations.

I no longer "expect" to see :

-honesty
-sexual fidelity
-consistency
-TRUE empathy, concern, etc. for their men
-lack of manipulative behavior
-TRUE openness

I'm sure we get some of these from women, and there may be some women who manifest ALL, but those are very rare.

And accepting this makes it all SO much easier.

It's not that I will reward women who lack these traits, nor will I continue to be involved with a woman once the opposite traits emerge. I just don't have high hopes for any given woman to be able to pull off the stuff we wish she would. And that's ok. It's reality.

More plates, less expectation.

STR8UP said:

You are absolutely right.

I have talked in the past about not having expectations.

Problem is, if you can't ever expect that your partner or your friend or whoever you deal with regularly is going to play fair, well, that really sucks cause you're always gonna be looking behind your back. I hate that I have to do that, but no matter how much I watch my back it doesn't do anything to prevent sh!t from happening. Things are as they are.

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It doesn't have to suck, man.

Look at it like you look at your business. You accept the rules - such as they are. You know your competitors may or may not be playing by those rules. You ACCEPT that as well. You watch your back.

Dealing with women is no different in that respect. I know you WANT it to be otherwise. I know you don't want to have to think this way about women. We all WANT to love and trust them, and love them and have them love us.

And we CAN have nearly all of that sometimes. But not always, not completely, and not consistently. And we will be better off just going with the flow on all this, because it's not going to change.

You will be disappointed if you expect too much.

As an aside-------- this same argument applies to women's expectations of men.

Problem is, if you can't ever expect that your partner or your friend or whoever you deal with regularly is going to play fair, well, that really sucks cause you're always gonna be looking behind your back. I hate that I have to do that, but no matter how much I watch my back it doesn't do anything to prevent sh!t from happening. Things are as they are.

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I just read Trump's latest book. You know what he said that the most valuable thing he looked for in friends and employees? Loyality. He said he's been burned MANY times by people he thought he could trust. He thought people were good. He was wrong. Hell, let him speak for himself.

The world is a vicious and brutal place. We think we're civilized. In truth, it's a cruel world and people are ruthless. They are nice to your face, but underneath they're out to kill you. You have to know how to defend yourself. People will be mean and nasty and try to hurt you just for sport. Lions in the jungle only kill for food, but humans kill for fun. Even your friends are out to get you: they want your job, they want your house, they want your money, they want your wife, and they even want your dog. Those are your friends; your enemies are even worse!

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Now, he goes by the rules of "Hire the best people you can find, but don't trust them.", "always get even", and "ALWAYS get a pre-nup". But you know what else he found? That there are people who are loyal, and appreciative of what you do for them. He knows how rare it is, and acts accordingly:

...I just can't stomach the disloyalty. I put the people loyal to me on a high pedestal and take care of them very well.

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I've adopted this point of view. Don't trust people without good reason, expect to be burned from time to time. If you are, get even and make them pay. Reward and appreciate loyality when you find it.

You might feel down St8up, but you should feel fortunate. You found the Red Pill. You took it. You see the Matrix for what it is, but it still suprises you from time to time. It's painful medicine I know, but just look at all the guys who are trapped. Would you rather be blissfully ignorant? No, the truth is better- as harsh as it is. You're in a rough spot right now. You're in the heart of the storm. Stick with it, you'll find your reward and then some. Persistence is the key to happiness and success.

Napeoleon Hill said:

...there is a hidden guide whose duty is to test men through all sorts of discouraging experiences. Those who pick themselves up after defeat and keep on trying, arrive; and the world cries, "Bravo! I knew you could do it!" The hidden Guide lets no one enjoy great achievement without passing the persistence test. Those who can't take it simply do not make the grade. Those who can "take it" are bountifully rewarded for their persistence. They recieve, as their compensation, whatever goal they are pursuing.

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Be a good person and attract good people? I've been a good person all my life and it's gotten me nowhere.

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It's gotten you to where you can figure out who to avoid. That's not such a bad thing.

Okay, so a woman with integrity who is not emotionally damaged and looks pretty and sexy and who treats men right and all that good stuff is a rare thing. That just means it's to be that much more appreciated if and when you find one. There are winners and losers, and if most people were winners, it wouldn't mean much.

Okay, so people are usually a let down. What else is new, really? Otherwise, infidelity, the way it's treated in our society, is pretty much deemed immoral, but accepted. The media holds up Brad Pitt and Angelina Jolie as celebs rather than cheats, and adultery is the stuff of romance novels and TV shows and movies and jokes. No one's arrested for it, divorces happen because of it, but no one's sued, the laws are archaic and until it happens to you, it's so ordinary and prevalent that people like this woman you posted about feel free to recommend it to strangers they've just met.

But I wonder if she's recommended it to her hubby too.

Had an older woman hit on me over the weekend and get this: she freely tells me how she's dating two married guys and standing up a single guy she had a date with that night. Like this is to impress me or something with how she can pull men? They don't even realize how they're coming across. Anyway, I turned my attention to the much younger, prettier cutie who was sitting on the other side of me.

Aenigma said:

I just read Trump's latest book. You know what he said that the most valuable thing he looked for in friends and employees? Loyality. He said he's been burned MANY times by people he thought he could trust. He thought people were good. He was wrong. Hell, let him speak for himself.

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That EXACTLY what I was saying in the "people are good" thread.

YOU DON'T KNOW THE WORLD UNTIL YOU HAVE SEEN IT FROM THAT PERSPECTIVE.

There is no doubt that my high school buddy would still be my friend if he hadn't had the OPPORTUNITY to steal a very large sum of money from me.

So in the general scope of things unless you have proper perspective you will never be able to understand that you have a price, a value to almost everyone. Once they are tempted with something that exceeds that value, you are viewed as expendable.

When it comes to women and relationships how many bad ones do you guys have to go through to see it for what it is? It's an ADVERSARIAL relationship. Sometimes, very rarely, two people will meet who share the same values and have enough integrity to cooperate and make it work, but you got about a one in a hundred chance of finding that in your lifetime.

Not very good odds. Makes you wonder why we even think it MIGHT happen.

Male female relationships are adversarial at their core. Add feminism on top of that and you have a bunch of spoiled brats running around laughing about exploiting their power.

Sad, indeed.

well first this depends on your reading the signals correctly. that she was overtly coming on to you and not just being friendly.

secondly, at best she was flirting. women flirt - its just what they do, even if they have a boyfriend. while it can be inappropriate, i don't see what she did as being all that horrible. it sounds to me like you are just a little burned out and felt that she was pulling your strings only to leave you hanging in the end. hence you felt like she was manipulating you for attention.

but once again, this is only 'evil' if that is what she was actually up to. from her perspective she may have just been engaging in a friendly conversation with some guy.

moreover, if booze was involved this is how 99% of women behave once they have a little alcohol in their system.

now, if she had said something to you like 'you have the cutest eyes.' or 'do you work out cuz you look like you're in great shape' or if she was hugging you and flirting etc.

but from what you described she was just being friendly - maybe flirty. but i don't really see where she crossed any lines other than her behavior led you to believe that something was going on and in the end you walked away empty handed.

but that's your issue for reading too much in to a womans behavior. OR not leading the situation and letting her lead. once she started flirting with you, you could have said 'so, who did you come to the party with?". now if you had said that and she said 'oh just a friend', and you later found it out was a 'boyfriend' then you might have grounds for getting upset.

anwyay, i know we aren't seeing eye to eye on things lately, but i really think you are burned out and things are getting to you more than they normally would.

aliasguy said:

I've been trying to talk about this off and on on this site.

Yes, there are "good" people out there. Yes, there IS good in the world.

But, if you go around EXPECTING "good," you are NOT going to see more good. A positive attitude is a good thing, FOR OURSELVES and what we are trying to do, to be, to accomplish.

[/B]

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well perspective has a lot to do with it. like for instance, if what happened to str8up happened to me i wouldn't be upset at all. i'd be thinking 'sweet, some hot chic dug me enough to want to chat it up with me and even get a little bit flirty. that was fun and its always good to know i can attract the hotties."

whereas str8up is taking it as 'that b*tch flirted with me and then just walked away. what a self serving b*tch' (or thereabouts).

and then some other people jump in and are like 'ya, people like her suck.'

i mean, WTF. what did this woman do that was so horrible. i just don't get it.

its a f*cking party. people schmooze it up and have a good time then go home. i really don't understand how anything this woman did was bad. its only bad because str8up says she was sending 'signals'.

i mean, to judge this woman as bad we have to assume that str8up is infallible, that there is no way in the world that he mistook friendliness for overt 'gawd f*ck me please' flirtiness.

all i know is that its very easy, its happened to me plenty, where you find a chic really hot, get into a flirtish conversation with her (half of which you are creating), then at the end you find out shes taken. what p*sses you off is that you got all worked up only to get nothing in the end. kind of like the power going out right in the middle of watching a porno.

but that doesn't make HER bad or not good or whatever.

if guys would just be more casual about their interactions with women (ie. stop making it into a big deal and just enjoy the process of meeting someone new) and if they took the lead (ie. ask questions that tell you whether she has a boyfriend or not) they'd find dealing with women to be much less of a pain in the butt.

but instead people vest all this energy into someone they don't even know and just met and then they play the game without knowing if there's even a point.

btw, i've also seen the other side of this paradigm.

i've been to parties where i end up chatting with a chic and she gets all into our conversation and we have a great time talking about whatever.

the boyfriend sees this and almost immediately will come over and break it up. watching his girl laughing and chatting some other guy gets under his skin.

but whats silly is im not hitting on her. and she's not looking to cheat. we are just talking.

i have female friends who are just flirty by nature. every time i see them they give me a huge hug and tell me how sexy im looking. i don't assume they are being 'evil' or leading me on just for fun - they are just flirty by nature.

i dont know, taking superficial behaviors so seriously is a mistake i think.