Flakes: The PUA way and the DJ way

I remember reading this article a while ago. I thought it showed the contrast quite nicely between the PUA way and our way.

The 1st part is a story by master PUA/social robot extrordinaire Tyler Durdin:

I get a phone call from an ex-girlfriend that I'm still close with. We still hook-up, but I value her more as someone who I can talk to now. I think that may change when I stop travelling and I'm around more. For some reason, she's an anomaly who is very self aware of her tendencies. That is, as opposed to most girls I meet, who only offer useless socially conditioned rhetoric, whenever you ask them about male/female interaction.

Over the course of the conversation, the topic of dating comes up. I ask, "What does it mean when you meet up with a guy, have a great time, maybe even kiss, but then when he calls you don't go out with him? Like you make up excuses and don't return his calls."

She replies, "Well there's this guy, Chris, who I met the other night. I really liked him. I offered him my number. He called me the other night, and asked me to meet up. I told him 'You know what, I think I actually will. Let me call you back.' I really wanted to meet up. For some reason I never did though.

"The thing is, that I can feel the emotion that I felt when I gave him my number, at the time that we're talking on the phone. But the second we hang up, poof, it's gone. Also, I actually have scheduling issues. It's not like this is someone who I'm already friends with, who I'd give priority to. This is some new person that I barely know.

"If he happens to catch me at the right time, I'd go out with him. But I won't take the time or go out of my way to return his calls. I don't call guys."

I reply, "So theoretically, you're sufficiently attracted to this guy that under different circumstances you could have wound up sleeping with him. Or even gotten into a five year relationship, for all you know. But just because of ill luck in timing and because he actually believed that you'd call him back, now you'll never see him again.

"Is this weird to you at all?"

She replies, "Nope. It makes perfect sense. I don't care either way, because I have guys available to me at all times so it's my last priority. That guy was cool and I thought he was cute, and maybe I'll see him again later or something. I also just give out my number to be social most of the time. It doesn't mean I have any intentions at all."

I reply, "He could use that opportunity to continue the interaction to generate attraction down the line, no?"

She replies, "It's happened before. Really I just don't want to meet new guys. I like being social when I'm out. But if I'm attracted to a guy, I'll probably flake on him. I've already slept with enough guys (she's nineteen years old, and has been with five guys), I don't want to sleep with anymore right now.

I reply, "OK that makes sense. What if he's really good looking? Does that make a difference? Also, do you think that when he calls it's better for him to chat you for a while, so you can be reminded of why you gave him your number in the first place? Or should he just call and immediately try to make plans? Also, do you think it's better to call you out on your bull**** in a funny way if you flake?"

She answers, "Looks means nothing when it comes to that stuff. I know within seconds if I could or couldn't sleep with a guy. I knew within seconds that we'd have sex, the night that we met."

I reply, "Are you serious? I don't think that my looks are on a level that you'd want to sleep with me the second you saw me."

She replies, "True. But it's in your energy. The way you come across. I can't explain it. As long as you're not morbidly disfigured your looks won't be the main thing I judge on. Girls all say they want looks, but they wind up with guys who aren't hot all the time. There's so many guys that I think are so hot, and I sit there waiting for them to talk and I'm all excited, and they're like "hi" with some stupid line, and they sound retarded and act weird. It's such a letdown, and most hot guys are like that."

I reply, "Do you think the 25 point list I showed you has to do with that kind of stuff?"

She replies, "Yes, definitely. Also stuff that you don't have in there, like just your voice and facial expressions."

I reply, "OK, what about the other stuff with calling girls out on bratty behaviour? Like confronting her for flaking?"

She replies, "Well if a guy tries to argue with me, I'll just hang up on him. He would have to do it in a totally funny way that doesn't make me upset or annoyed."

I reply, "Last night, I call up this flaky girl, and say 'You're so annoying to get a hold of! It's so cute though, you're so confused and disorganized. It's like you're my bratty little sister. I don't even think I'm attracted to you anymore, I just want to take care of you and help you get organized like a big brother.'... Then she started giggling and said 'No no no.. I'll meet up with you, don't think of me like that!'.. Do you think that was a good approach?"

She replies, "Yeah definitely. That was funny and if you did that to me, I'd be like "Oh yeah, well maybe I WILL meet up with you then!"

I reply, "OK awesome. So do you think it's good to talk for like 15 minutes to remind her of what she gave you her number for in the first place, and then go for a meet?"

She replies, "Probably longer than that actually. I'm not sure. For you maybe less time because you do this stuff. But most guys have no chance unless they're lucky because I'm either bored or looking for something at that point in time. I guess
their best bet is to try to talk to me as much as possible, so I become friends with them."

Click to expand...

A few thoughts on this.

First, guys will attribute flaking to a lack of attraction. I disagree with this line of thinking. Girls go into state, and forget about it down the line. In fact, most of what occurs while a girl's buying temperature is escalated will be
forgotten by the girl. They become disassociative and cognitive dissonance kicks in.

Have you ever noticed that whatever drama happens the night you meet a girl will be forgotten if you wind up dating? It's because nothing that happens while she's in state counts to her. That's also why we don't bother worrying about whether or
not a girl has a boyfriend. She becomes disassociative when she's attracted, so it's not relevant to the interaction.

That being the case, there are a few tendencies that guys in the scene have, that I think are wrong-headed:

1- Calling a girl on her bull**** for flaking in a way that isn't cute or fun, or in a way that sounds angry or like you actually care. In my experience, the only girls who respond to that are the types who respond to this sort of behaviour in general, which is a certain type of girl that is not the majority.

2- Putting the girl in a position where she has to call you back or its over.

3- Refusing to follow up with girls who don't make it easy to meet up with them again by, and thinking that you're somehow 'NEXTing' them.

4- Thinking that all value is strictly conveyed in person, and that it is a bad idea to talk for a long time on the phone because it makes you look needy. Not that you *need* to call long. But rather, call as long as you feel like. Calibrate so as to hang up before she gets bored, but enjoy the interaction as long as you want. It's just that much more comfort building, and is only taking you that much closer to the endzone.

5- Giving up if the girl stands you up, because you think she isn't attracted.

For me, there are a few things that I'll do when it comes to the phone. First, if a girl flakes me, I'll tease her on it in a funny way. I never get angry or look genuinely upset about it. I never focus on reasoning with them logically.

I also don't give up if a girl doesn't call back. At the same time, if they say they'll call back I'll say I don't get upset like I know they won't. I'll just say "OK cool." and give them the chance. But then if they don't call back when they said they would, I'll call back a bit later and just re-initiate the conversation as if I don't even remember that they didn't follow up.

Now when it comes to the idea that "if a girl disrespects me I'll NEXT her", that isn't my frame at all. To me, you can't NEXT a girl who you haven't slept with. In my view, that's just her NEXT'ing you. It's only a girl that I'm already with that I'll do this to if she annoys me or crosses my boundaries.

For a girl I haven't slept with yet though, I have a certain beliefs. She owes me nothing. It's all a game. No relationship or connection exists between us until we've been together physically, because she reserves the right to walk away at any point. I have no emotional ties to the interaction, and I have no ego about it. I just do what I think will work.

I also believe that there is a fundamental problem with many of the social ideas about how often and when to call. For example, there exists an idea in society that waiting to call will create scarcity and value, as well as increase anticipation.

To me this is very wrong thinking. Notice that it stems from the fact that 99% of pickups in society are SOCIAL CIRCLE pickups. So for that kind of phone number, you'd have probably had the tension building for weeks or months before the number was exchanged. Of course waiting is better - it's been building for months. But for girls you met on a cold approach, that is not the case.

I know what world the girls live in. They live in the same world that I do. The world where you meet tons of girls (in their case its guys), and tons of them like you and tons of them validate you. When I get home from a club, I literally cannot remember the names or faces of girls I met.

To be more accurate, I literally barely remember the names or faces of the last three girls I had sex with. I just got off the phone with a girl that I was with less than twelve hours ago, and Jeffy and I had to think for five minutes about what her name was before I returned her call.

And I LIKED that girl.

I remember she was a hot brunette around my height, and seemed cool. But that's about it.

For girls, it's the same. They can barely remember anyone they meet, because they meet so many people. To make matters even worse, they become disassociative while they're in the club. Many of them have even had had a few drinks, but you couldn't
tell.

Of course, you can do daytime pickup. But regardless, the girls still have access to many other good looking alpha guys the second they want it.

Most guys don't even realize that it is very rare that an attractive girl is not getting laid by one or more other guys. That's even when they're single. They're still sleeping with their ex-boyfriends, or some player on the side.

It's not like a hot girl is NOT getting laid, anymore than you wouldn't be if you had the instant option. So when you're calling, they are about as motivated to meet up with you as you would be to drive across town to a good Italian restaurant, when you're eating a good bowl of Chinese right in front of you.

Sure, the Italian would be great. But you have an unlimited Chinese buffet sitting right here. Why would you be bothered?

The girls don't get that needy feeling that the guys get. They are always validated, because they've been in the club at least twice a week, getting validated by all the guys complimenting them and buying them drinks.

When it comes to how I handle the phone, I don't worry that if I call back multiple times it will make me look bad. Because I have high social value, and don't subcommunicate any neediness, I can call as much as I want.

In fact, I'll call two or three times in a row if she's not picking up, back to back. I'll call back whenever I feel like it, because it's obvious that I'm amusing myself and that I don't really care. I could take it or leave it, and I'm just having fun.

I'll call and shoot the ****, and then hassle her until she meets up. Whatever.

I also combat excuses by adding in phone freezeouts, and following them with playful teasing and some semi-logical stuff like "Hey, come chill for a few minutes. If you're bored, take off and we'll catch up later."

My goal is to have the girl on the phone ASAP. I don't want them to have any time to forget that we have plans to meet up. I'll call girls' cellphones even as I'm leaving the club and going for afterbar food. I'll have pulled a girl from the club to an afterhours food place, and run off to the bathroom to call all my numbers, while my wing occupies our set (I have a habit of pulling a two set with my wing for same night, and take numbers from the choice girls in larger sets).

Whether I reach them or not, I'll call them again as soon as I wake up the next afternoon, and get the ball rolling. I'm not thinking to make them wonder if I'll call or not, because I know they could care less. Not because they aren't attracted. Rather, because there are many attractive prospects on their plates, and regardless of my game, I'm one of many.

The difference between me and them though, is that I'll get her and they won't, because I'll play it properly.

If a girl stands me up, I'll call her and make fun of her for it. I'll hassle her to meet up. I'll say I'm still there and she had better get her ass down there, because she's my little sister and if she doesn't get down here I don't know what trouble she'll get into if she doesn't have me there to supervise her.

I don't care either if she wants her friends to come or not. All of this means nothing to me. I just want to see her again, because I'll get her no matter what she throws at me.

The difference between a day1 and a day2 is that she's there to see *me*. So she has no excuse not to come back somewhere private if we're spending time together. And from there I can escalate.

So let's summarize.

In my experience, I've found it best to get away from the idea that you're trying to make the girl fall in love with you before you hook up with her.

Focus on just showing you're a cool guy who she has the potential to be attracted to, and then make it your only priority to see her again. Don't worry about your value over the phone. You can't wreck a pickup from over a phone line. That makes no sense.

If you're the kind of guy who she's attracted to, then just act congruent to that over the phone. Call her and get her accustomed and accepting that you're in her life now. Make plans, and if she is flaky don't worry about it, and be playfully persistent by chatting her more, not by talking non-stop about the flaking. Meet, have fun, connect, isolate, and from there its up to you..

We both know that the subject of calling and flakiness is one of the biggest obstacles men face when they're in the process of increasing their success with women, so feel free to post this. I hope my thoughts will be of some help to our fellow guys. First, however, let me tell you a bit about myself and how far along I am in improving my dating life. I believe it is important to know where a person is coming from before listening to what they think:

My name is Zack. I'm 23 years old. I'm 5 ' 7, skinny, and a decent-looking guy. Like many others, my life was an endless cycle of frustration, failure, and low self-esteem until recently. David DeAngelo's "Double Your Dating" is what helped me change that. I've only been practicing his teachings for 8 months and I haven't yet checked out material from the other big names in the "seduction community", but the improvement has been HUGE. I see women all the time and I can get phone numbers easily. I'm still growing and evolving, so my view on the calling-flaking topic may change in the future (I don't think that even the best eventually master this stuff, you can always get better and life is a continuous learning process); nonetheless, I feel experienced enough to comment.

BEING PERSISTENT FOR THE WRONG REASON

Many guys fall into the trap of repeated effort with a woman due to a mindset that says "Oh, but this one is interesting" when in reality, the real reason they keep attempting to build a presence in her life or set up a date is BECAUSE she's being distant and evasive. When a woman makes it difficult for me to get in touch or meet with her, I only continue trying if I'm actually interested enough in hanging out with her. I've got more women than I know what to do with and I meet more constantly (not to mention that I also have a life).

Out of the dozens of girls who give me their contact info every week, a few make stronger impressions than the rest. I just don't have time to keep calling every single lady who acts unresponsive, especially if she is not one of the women who triggered a higher level of interest from me when we met. I do what Tyler recommends if my higher level of interest in the woman is genuine, not a result of her being elusive.


SITUATIONS ARE DIFFERENT

In my experience, I have found that most attractive women don't have regular access to alpha-men who are sexually skilled and understand attraction. Many aren't lucky enough to even run across one. I know so many attractive women who, prior to my having met them, hadn't had sex in over 3 months. The majority of attractive women are bored with men or are "sexually dormant", as DeAngelo would say. Sure, they might be sleeping with their ex-boyfriend, some bad boy, or "a player on the side", and these guys may have "game" or be more physically attractive than you...but men who have it all together, are going somewhere in life, know attraction INSIDE-OUT, and can give women UNBELIEVABLE experiences in the bedroom are RARE.

To surmise: Projecting "scarcity and value" will work on MOST attractive women you'll meet. But if you're interested in meeting with one who has many equally smooth or smoother guys available to her, you have to handle the situation differently. Call as many times as you need to and spend as much time talking to her as you feel comfortable with; just be playful, calm, and indifferent about it, i.e. don't be a wussbag.

AN ENTIRELY DIFFERENT WAY TO HANDLE THIS

While dismissing women based on interest-level and judging different situations are still good ideas for newbies, there is a MUCH SIMPLER philosophy you can embrace. In fact, it's so simple that when it first occurred to me a few months ago I slapped myself in the head and thought "I'm so STUPID, why didn't I look at it that way before!"

Here it is in a nutshell:

Stop caring whether or not a woman has options and just focus on BEING THE BEST OPTION. Wow, I know...DUH.

Try to follow me here. Tyler is correct when he says that if a woman with options (good options) doesn't call you or flakes on you, it doesn't mean she isn't attracted you; she just has A LOT of quality men on her plate and you're simply "one of the many." But what you also have to realize is that out of the many skilled and attractive men she has on speed dial, she probably sees one or two of them more often than the rest. Obviously, she likes these guys THE MOST. All the others serve as backup choices when one of the "top two" isn't available.

When you think about that, it becomes clear that attraction is "quantifiable."

When you completely dedicate yourself to being a man that no sane woman would "shuffle down the list", guess what...she will ALMOST ALWAYS see you as a guy who deserves priority. If you develop your body language, eye contact, physical presence, voice tone, and social skills to a level that is RIDICULOUS (that's what you've gotta shoot for), all the options a woman might have won't make a difference. Your impression will stand out in her mind.

This idea skyrocketed my success with women. Now I don't "decide" if I want to continue trying to connect with a woman or forget her, I do whatever I want. I know I am the best option and therefore, I can call or not call, keep conversations brief or longer, call often or sparingly, and it doesn't matter! She still feels MORE ATTRACTED to me than to any of her other guys, regardless if they're skilled players or regular chumps.

I very rarely find myself in a situation where the woman I'm interested in hanging out with has one or more guys who are really good options. Those times that I do, I simply know that whoever I'm "competing against" is better at attraction than I am...and then I find these dudes and learn from them!

So there you have it. When a woman with options makes it tough for you, it's not because "she has options"; it's because she has GOOD options who might be better selections over you. Be the best option! When you do this, you'll notice that 99 percent of the time...you'll be the one who gets her.

- Zack

Phyzzle said:

I also don't give up if a girl doesn't call back. At the same time, if they say they'll call back I'll say I don't get upset like I know they won't. I'll just say "OK cool." and give them the chance. But then if they don't call back when they said they would, I'll call back a bit later and just re-initiate the conversation as if I don't even remember that they didn't follow up.

Click to expand...

But at what point do you say, "I'm tired of always being the one to follow through." When I say I'm going to do something, I do it. I don't flake. But I'm a guy. And I agree that sometimes the flakiness doesn't mean they aren't interested, but doesn't it lower YOUR interest eventually when you think "guess she's a flake".

Don't women want a man who holds them accountable? And after holding them accountable a few times (not in anger, just in a normal, direct way) and they still seem to have these power issues, shouldn't you assume it's always going to be like that?

(This is more in reference to LTR's and girls you've known awhile, not ones you're just getting to know.)

So basically, if you want to get into the mind of a horish b1tch, you should really listen to what this girl was trying to say.

For example, there exists an idea in society that waiting to call will create scarcity and value, as well as increase anticipation. To me this is very wrong thinking.

Click to expand...

probably correct

Don't women want a man who holds them accountable? . . .

(This is more in reference to LTR's and girls you've known awhile, not ones you're just getting to know.)

Click to expand...

Exactly. The above info was directed towards women who don't know you. Women don't accept accountability from strangers, so don't bother.

Now if a girl even attempts to flake on the 5th date, let her know that's not acceptable.

But with some random girl you had a 3-5 minute convo with, flaking should roll off your back. Stop taking it personally. She can't reject you if she doesn't know you, so give it another shot or two.

http://www.sosuave.com/articles/persistence.htm

just saw you link this thread in the MM thread about flakes. I gotta admit, I've done like 3-4 of the wrong-headed tendencies of men in my journal and anyone who has read the journal can admit that they are pretty fruitless. I think the problem for me (and others) occurs when I let my ego get in the way of my seducing. In reality I'm the kind of guy who don't care what I go through because the Ends justifies the Means. If a girl has to call me a loser before I get a shot at the pvssy, I would like to say that I can put myself in the position 10/10 times because I want pvssy, not respect. However, decisions like calling chicks out on flaking or one and done-ing them shows that I am not quite there yet. Is it really that time consuming for me to give a flake a lil bit of time to get back into your life? I think not. When I start telling myself I won't take sh!t from a random girl from the club I think sub-consciously I am trying to illustrate that I am too good for her games and talk myself out of talking her out of her pvssy.

Once again, great post and an even better analysis by you Phyzzle. I gotta spread rep but I'll hit u up later

I have such high value that the flaker is flaking herself.

Phyzzle said:

A few thoughts on this.



4- Thinking that all value is strictly conveyed in person, and that it is a bad idea to talk for a long time on the phone because it makes you look needy. Not that you *need* to call long. But rather, call as long as you feel like. Calibrate so as to hang up before she gets bored, but enjoy the interaction as long as you want. It's just that much more comfort building, and is only taking you that much closer to the endzone.

5- Giving up if the girl stands you up, because you think she isn't attracted.

For me, there are a few things that I'll do when it comes to the phone. First, if a girl flakes me, I'll tease her on it in a funny way. I never get angry or look genuinely upset about it. I never focus on reasoning with them logically.

I also don't give up if a girl doesn't call back. At the same time, if they say they'll call back I'll say I don't get upset like I know they won't. I'll just say "OK cool." and give them the chance. But then if they don't call back when they said they would, I'll call back a bit later and just re-initiate the conversation as if I don't even remember that they didn't follow up.

Now when it comes to the idea that "if a girl disrespects me I'll NEXT her", that isn't my frame at all. To me, you can't NEXT a girl who you haven't slept with. In my view, that's just her NEXT'ing you. It's only a girl that I'm already with that I'll do this to if she annoys me or crosses my boundaries.

For a girl I haven't slept with yet though, I have a certain beliefs. She owes me nothing. It's all a game. No relationship or connection exists between us until we've been together physically, because she reserves the right to walk away at any point. I have no emotional ties to the interaction, and I have no ego about it. I just do what I think will work.

I also believe that there is a fundamental problem with many of the social ideas about how often and when to call. For example, there exists an idea in society that waiting to call will create scarcity and value, as well as increase anticipation.

To me this is very wrong thinking. Notice that it stems from the fact that 99% of pickups in society are SOCIAL CIRCLE pickups. So for that kind of phone number, you'd have probably had the tension building for weeks or months before the number was exchanged. Of course waiting is better - it's been building for months. But for girls you met on a cold approach, that is not the case.

I know what world the girls live in. They live in the same world that I do. The world where you meet tons of girls (in their case its guys), and tons of the

Of course, you can do daytime pickup. But regardless, the girls still have access to many other good looking alpha guys the second they want it.

Most guys don't even realize that it is very rare that an attractive girl is not getting laid by one or more other guys. That's even when they're single. They're still sleeping with their ex-boyfriends, or some player on the side.

It's not like a hot girl is NOT getting laid, anymore than you wouldn't be if you had the instant option. So when you're calling, they are about as motivated to meet up with you as you would be to drive across town to a good Italian restaurant, when you're eating a good bowl of Chinese right in front of you.

Sure, the Italian would be great. But you have an unlimited Chinese buffet sitting right here. Why would you be bothered?

The girls don't get that needy feeling that the guys get. They are always validated, because they've been in the club at least twice a week, getting validated by all the guys complimenting them and buying them drinks.

When it comes to how I handle the phone, I don't worry that if I call back multiple times it will make me look bad. Because I have high social value, and don't subcommunicate any neediness, I can call as much as I want.

In fact, I'll call two or three times in a row if she's not picking up, back to back. I'll call back whenever I feel like it, because it's obvious that I'm amusing myself and that I don't really care. I could take it or leave it, and I'm just having fun.

I'll call and shoot the ****, and then hassle her until she meets up. Whatever.

I also combat excuses by adding in phone freezeouts, and following them with playful teasing and some semi-logical stuff like "Hey, come chill for a few minutes. If you're bored, take off and we'll catch up later."

My goal is to have the girl on the phone ASAP. I don't want them to have any time to forget that we have plans to meet up. I'll call girls' cellphones even as I'm leaving the club and going for afterbar food. I'll have pulled a girl from the club to an afterhours food place, and run off to the bathroom to call all my numbers, while my wing occupies our set (I have a habit of pulling a two set with my wing for same night, and take numbers from the choice girls in larger sets).

Whether I reach them or not, I'll call them again as soon as I wake up the next afternoon, and get the ball rolling. I'm not thinking to make them wonder if I'll call or not, because I know they could care less. Not because they aren't attracted. Rather, because there are many attractive prospects on their plates, and regardless of my game, I'm one of many.

The difference between me and them though, is that I'll get her and they won't, because I'll play it properly.

If a girl stands me up, I'll call her and make fun of her for it. I'll hassle her to meet up. I'll say I'm still there and she had better get her ass down there, because she's my little sister and if she doesn't get down here I don't know what trouble she'll get into if she doesn't have me there to supervise her.

I don't care either if she wants her friends to come or not. All of this means nothing to me. I just want to see her again, because I'll get her no matter what she throws at me.

The difference between a day1 and a day2 is that she's there to see *me*. So she has no excuse not to come back somewhere private if we're spending time together. And from there I can escalate.

So let's summarize.

In my experience, I've found it best to get away from the idea that you're trying to make the girl fall in love with you before you hook up with her.

Focus on just showing you're a cool guy who she has the potential to be attracted to, and then make it your only priority to see her again. Don't worry about your value over the phone. You can't wreck a pickup from over a phone line. That makes no sense.

If you're the kind of guy who she's attracted to, then just act congruent to that over the phone. Call her and get her accustomed and accepting that you're in her life now. Make plans, and if she is flaky don't worry about it, and be playfully persistent by chatting her more, not by talking non-stop about the flaking. Meet, have fun, connect, isolate, and from there its up to you..

Click to expand...

The little sister bull**** works some of the time. But if the girl is not inclined to fukk you, and she is attractive, you can play all the phone games you want, she has too many other options to leave them all for you. All you will get is consistantly flaked.

Women, the sexy ones, are by nature "Flaky" They dont want to commit that vagina to just any man. You have to be "the one" who really does it for her. Not with ****y funny, or any other DJ stuff, but one she has a "gut instinct" for, as far as who she wants to get naked with. If that level of sexual attraction is there from the beginning, it wont take much, given that you are both single, to lower her panties. Let me give you three examples.

1. "Sarah" Sarah is a sexy 28 y/o who is in love with herself, and has a MYSPACE page dedicated to how hott she is. It is filled with glamour girl shots of her, filled with comments from boys like "Sexy Eyes" "I want to be with you" ect. She freely hands out her phone number to men, and texts them, and teases. She is out on the town, and takes drinks from men. But she is also hurting over the Marine who has already fukked her anal canal raw, but wont return her "I love you" Therefore, she has a willing legion of AFCs who tell her how hott she is, and will listen to her lament over her lost sexy Marine. She will not get naked for any of these chumps, regardless of how DJish they are. She has heard all the lines. She is a Flake, except for the Marine, she would crawl through 10,000 miles of Razor wire naked for a chance to drink a single spurt of his ***. Sarah has "it" for this marine.

2. "Aimee" Aimee is a sexy 35 year old, who has a strong connection to "Don" She and Don were once lovers. They felt "it" the very first time they met (They were both committed to other people), the sexual tension was off the charts. 5 years later, at a nightclub, they dirty danced, and 2 weeks later, were trying for a boy. Aimee has that "gut instinct" I am talking about.

3. "Cassie" Cassie is a HO with a capital "H" She is bi-sexual, and experimental. She enjoys three somes. But she also likes Don. At one point they were Fukk Buddies for about 6 months or so. They had some wonderful times, and Don didnt interfere with her lifestyle. She liked Don from the first 13 seconds they were introduced, and they remained tight, she loved the fact that he wouldnt fall for her, and would give her the sex she sought on boring week nights. I talked to Don, he knows where she works, and is going to try and re-instate the FB thing. She has "it" for him, and if my instincts are sound, the booty call will happen by the time the weather gets nicer. Because once a woman has "it" for you, she never loses "it"

This is really good stuff Phyzzle, a lot of this rings very true for me. Thanks for posting it.

I think that is f a girl flakes then delete the number and keep on stepping to a good life. It's her loss, but it's YOUR fault for not laying your game deep enough so that she is excited about the possiblity of spending more time with you.

Chalk it up to the game and jump right back in.

If she calls to give a lame excuse don't bother answering it. It will serve as a lesson to the woman.

The good looking ones can afford to flake, as they have a long line of gullible men ready willing and able to fukk them on a moments notice. Lets reverse the scenario. Lets say you lived in a Twilight Zone city called "Sin City"....the women of Sin City were all 9's and up, and all looked to be 23-28 years old. NONE of them were lesbians or bi-sexual. Now, in this town, the ratio of men to women was say, 1-10. One man for every 10 women.

A man in a city like this would be sitting pretty. He would have all the female attention he wanted, and the competiton for his dikk would be fierce. All he would have to do is kick back, and wait for them to pursue him. There would be no need for So Suave or the DJ Bible. He would get Text messages from 4-5 different hotties on a Friday night, and he could afford to pick out the 1 or 2 he wanted the most that night to hang with, and tell the rest he was busy washing his hair that night.

A friend of mine worked in a Rehab Facility and told me of this Native American patient there, about 5'3, ugly and skinny, wannabe gangsta, who basically was having regular sex with a white girl Supermodel also stuck inside the facility. In the real world, among her friends, this little man would have been laughed at and mocked. But inside the Facility, with no other male competition, he was a fukking Rock Star.

The Reasons So Suave and the DJ Bible exist is because of all of the male competition we have to deal with, to get the puussy.

I think the thing is that a seducer need to focus on eliciting values and showing her how he is so 'in-tune' with her. That will automatically put you in the upper-echelon of males 'pursuing'. Like Jake Prescott's first post, once you show them you have 'it' (a connection or an ability to make her feel like no one else does) they don't forget about it and others don't hold a candle to you in their mind. I've GOT to start practicing seductive language throughout my daily life until this stuff sticks and I hope others do the same. Many men can talk to a woman and many men and feel up a woman, few men can touch her how she wants to be touched and even fewer can talk to her like she wants to be talked to.

marvelous ... old thread but this is shocking yet so true and makes sense

I'm in an LTR now but still play the game occasionally to stay in practice.

Met a girl recently online, got her from email to IM then phone right away.

I scheduled a meetup but I knew I was working so quick that she might flake.

She said she got over 100 emails so just getting to phone and all that was pretty good, but I was wary of her flaking.

Well she did flake, and said she had to work late, which she claims is true.

I called her out on a bit and said she was nervous to meet me (which I think the real issue is).

I then got her on IM and started to work a bit more game. this has been fairly successful.

I'll post an update with time.

I see no major need to give up right away as I already have an LTR and I like seeing how this stuff plays out!

Phyzzle said:

We both know that the subject of calling and flakiness is one of the biggest obstacles men face when they're in the process of increasing their success with women, so feel free to post this. I hope my thoughts will be of some help to our fellow guys. First, however, let me tell you a bit about myself and how far along I am in improving my dating life. I believe it is important to know where a person is coming from before listening to what they think:

My name is Zack. I'm 23 years old. I'm 5 ' 7, skinny, and a decent-looking guy. Like many others, my life was an endless cycle of frustration, failure, and low self-esteem until recently. David DeAngelo's "Double Your Dating" is what helped me change that. I've only been practicing his teachings for 8 months and I haven't yet checked out material from the other big names in the "seduction community", but the improvement has been HUGE. I see women all the time and I can get phone numbers easily. I'm still growing and evolving, so my view on the calling-flaking topic may change in the future (I don't think that even the best eventually master this stuff, you can always get better and life is a continuous learning process); nonetheless, I feel experienced enough to comment.

BEING PERSISTENT FOR THE WRONG REASON

Many guys fall into the trap of repeated effort with a woman due to a mindset that says "Oh, but this one is interesting" when in reality, the real reason they keep attempting to build a presence in her life or set up a date is BECAUSE she's being distant and evasive. When a woman makes it difficult for me to get in touch or meet with her, I only continue trying if I'm actually interested enough in hanging out with her. I've got more women than I know what to do with and I meet more constantly (not to mention that I also have a life).

Out of the dozens of girls who give me their contact info every week, a few make stronger impressions than the rest. I just don't have time to keep calling every single lady who acts unresponsive, especially if she is not one of the women who triggered a higher level of interest from me when we met. I do what Tyler recommends if my higher level of interest in the woman is genuine, not a result of her being elusive.


SITUATIONS ARE DIFFERENT

In my experience, I have found that most attractive women don't have regular access to alpha-men who are sexually skilled and understand attraction. Many aren't lucky enough to even run across one. I know so many attractive women who, prior to my having met them, hadn't had sex in over 3 months. The majority of attractive women are bored with men or are "sexually dormant", as DeAngelo would say. Sure, they might be sleeping with their ex-boyfriend, some bad boy, or "a player on the side", and these guys may have "game" or be more physically attractive than you...but men who have it all together, are going somewhere in life, know attraction INSIDE-OUT, and can give women UNBELIEVABLE experiences in the bedroom are RARE.

To surmise: Projecting "scarcity and value" will work on MOST attractive women you'll meet. But if you're interested in meeting with one who has many equally smooth or smoother guys available to her, you have to handle the situation differently. Call as many times as you need to and spend as much time talking to her as you feel comfortable with; just be playful, calm, and indifferent about it, i.e. don't be a wussbag.

AN ENTIRELY DIFFERENT WAY TO HANDLE THIS

While dismissing women based on interest-level and judging different situations are still good ideas for newbies, there is a MUCH SIMPLER philosophy you can embrace. In fact, it's so simple that when it first occurred to me a few months ago I slapped myself in the head and thought "I'm so STUPID, why didn't I look at it that way before!"

Here it is in a nutshell:

Stop caring whether or not a woman has options and just focus on BEING THE BEST OPTION. Wow, I know...DUH.

Try to follow me here. Tyler is correct when he says that if a woman with options (good options) doesn't call you or flakes on you, it doesn't mean she isn't attracted you; she just has A LOT of quality men on her plate and you're simply "one of the many." But what you also have to realize is that out of the many skilled and attractive men she has on speed dial, she probably sees one or two of them more often than the rest. Obviously, she likes these guys THE MOST. All the others serve as backup choices when one of the "top two" isn't available.

When you think about that, it becomes clear that attraction is "quantifiable."

When you completely dedicate yourself to being a man that no sane woman would "shuffle down the list", guess what...she will ALMOST ALWAYS see you as a guy who deserves priority. If you develop your body language, eye contact, physical presence, voice tone, and social skills to a level that is RIDICULOUS (that's what you've gotta shoot for), all the options a woman might have won't make a difference. Your impression will stand out in her mind.

This idea skyrocketed my success with women. Now I don't "decide" if I want to continue trying to connect with a woman or forget her, I do whatever I want. I know I am the best option and therefore, I can call or not call, keep conversations brief or longer, call often or sparingly, and it doesn't matter! She still feels MORE ATTRACTED to me than to any of her other guys, regardless if they're skilled players or regular chumps.

I very rarely find myself in a situation where the woman I'm interested in hanging out with has one or more guys who are really good options. Those times that I do, I simply know that whoever I'm "competing against" is better at attraction than I am...and then I find these dudes and learn from them!

So there you have it. When a woman with options makes it tough for you, it's not because "she has options"; it's because she has GOOD options who might be better selections over you. Be the best option! When you do this, you'll notice that 99 percent of the time...you'll be the one who gets her.

- Zack

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Women, especially attractive ones have dozens, upon dozens upon dozens of other options, ranging from Playa Gangstas with the abs, and the nicknames like "Daddy" to much older men with Ferraris who own TimeShares on the French Riviera, to everything inbetween. White collar, blue collar, and Drug Dealers who dont need to work, who own watches worth more than most men's cars. You cannot be the better option over men like these, unless you hit the lottery.

Lets take "Sonya" as an example. Sonya is 28, sexy, one child, very pretty face, and puts in her time in the gym, the tanning salon and the nail salon. So she looks as hott as a woman 8 years younger. She has a little baggage, with the kid, but men horny for hott Pu$$y, could care less, once the child is put to bed.

She has many, many options, from guys who hit on her at the furniture shop she works at as a receptionist, to "Playa Gangstas" who are her friends, on the weekend when she parties, to friends of her girlfriends, to other miscellaneous men she meets at the grocery store, the gym, the mall, ect. She has literally 49 different men on her Cell that she can text or call at any given time for anything ranging from a quick cup of coffee, to sex at 3am.

"Sonya" does not need your ass, regardless of how you try to make yourself the best option. It's all a matter of RATIO. The more men she has to choose from, the more options she has, the less chance the DJ has with her. He can ask her out, show her he doesnt need her and even date around, she could care less, she is too busy sorting out men like a bunch of live "Ken" dolls.

She has the options of staying single and playing the field, getting drinks and dinners and movies and concerts as she pleases. She has the options of selecting say "Daddy" the coke dealer from Santa Cruz as a fukkbuddy. Or say "Rudy" the State Legislator with a huge home in the mountains, and a big boat, on which he will invite her to go waterskiing in, in a thong bikini he buys for her. Or, she could date Jerry, the sexy auto repairshop cutie that changed her oil. Or, she could just go clubbing with all her girlfriends, and they can dance with each other and tease all the horny men, when they pretend to make out.

The DJ, say named "Don" has little chance, even if he comes across as cool, calm, collected, patient and cool. He is just a face in the crowd.

SWING the ratio around now. A buddy of mine worked in a Drug Rehab once, and told me of one guy there, who was UGLY , even FUGLY, this guy, he said, could have stuck his face in dough and made gorilla cookies, fat, out of shape, and stupid. And the personality of a dead salmon. BUT he was the only male patient, among 23 little hottie 22 year olds. Guess what? The guy was basically the Alpha Dawg, Mack Daddy, Puff Diddy of the Rehab Facility, there were women fighting to sit next to him for dinner.

None of these 22 year olds would have spat on him in the real world, but in the rehab joint, he was a Sexual God.

Moral of the story: Get into rehab stat!

First, guys will attribute flaking to a lack of attraction.

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It's usually due to lack of sufficient interest, not attraction. Two different things.

Girls go into state, and forget about it down the line. In fact, most of what occurs while a girl's buying temperature is escalated will be
forgotten by the girl.

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This reasoning actually pardons and excuses away the behavior of women. It's saying that women can't be responsible for their own actions. This is nonsense. A cat can be distracted by a shiny light and forget about what it was just doing, and it has a brain that's about an inch in diameter. Women have comparable brains to men, not cats.

When men don't understand women's behaviors, they typically excuse them away with ideas such as: "Women are illogical. They don't make any sense." But this isn't true. Women do make sense, there is a logic. Guys just don't understand it, so they think it's not there at all. So it is with thinking that whatever it was that interested the gal is so quickly forgotten by her within seconds she hangs up the phone.

If that was the case, then she'd forget everything everytime with everyone everywhere. That new job she just received the phone call telling her she got, and she was so excited? She forgets about it the next day when she's no longer in state. But that wouldn't happen, because she would've forgotten to go on the interview in the first place right after being called about it.

That gal that told Durden her reasoning on why she flakes. It's more likely that this is a tainted sample.

First off, we don't know if this is the way her words really went down or happened, we're relying on Tyler Durden to be exact. He may be thinking he's exact, but maybe he's got some stuff wrong. Ever play "Telephone"? It also may have been fudged for his benefit in publishing it. Who knows?

Then, she may have BS'ed him in her response because she's his ex, and maybe she used to flake on him, for good reason, but she's not going to tell him that. So she give him a bogus excuse.

Then consider that he's contaminating this sampling by leading her conversation with his input.

It's also just a sampling from ONE woman... and a 19 y.o. at that. She could just be a loon in the first place. Most women that flake aren't loons or immature, they purposely flake.

Any empirical truisms that may be in her conversation are mixed in and lost with all the nonsense.

Bottom line: there are guys who wish to roll up their sleeves and continue to work uphill with women who flake on them. Refusing to belive that it's actually either about that they're dealing with loons or that they're dealing with women who are toying with them and not that interested, they simply must win or face a blow to their ego, and so, we continue to see long threads dissecting this matter of flaking every which way in support of trying to win over these women.

The occasional success in scoring makes these guys act like rats in a scientific experiment: Put a rat in a maze and he finds a piece of cheese down tunnel # 3. Then put him back in that maze 100 more times - without any cheese - and he will keep going down tunnel # 3 because, hey! There was cheese there once, and if I keep on doing this, there's got to be cheese again sooner or later!

Mr. Me said:

It's usually due to lack of sufficient interest, not attraction. Two different things.



This reasoning actually pardons and excuses away the behavior of women. It's saying that women can't be responsible for their own actions. This is nonsense. A cat can be distracted by a shiny light and forget about what it was just doing, and it has a brain that's about an inch in diameter. Women have comparable brains to men, not cats.

When men don't understand women's behaviors, they typically excuse them away with ideas such as: "Women are illogical. They don't make any sense." But this isn't true. Women do make sense, there is a logic. Guys just don't understand it, so they think it's not there at all. So it is with thinking that whatever it was that interested the gal is so quickly forgotten by her within seconds she hangs up the phone.

If that was the case, then she'd forget everything everytime with everyone everywhere. That new job she just received the phone call telling her she got, and she was so excited? She forgets about it the next day when she's no longer in state. But that wouldn't happen, because she would've forgotten to go on the interview in the first place right after being called about it.

That gal that told Durden her reasoning on why she flakes. It's more likely that this is a tainted sample.

First off, we don't know if this is the way her words really went down or happened, we're relying on Tyler Durden to be exact. He may be thinking he's exact, but maybe he's got some stuff wrong. Ever play "Telephone"? It also may have been fudged for his benefit in publishing it. Who knows?

Then, she may have BS'ed him in her response because she's his ex, and maybe she used to flake on him, for good reason, but she's not going to tell him that. So she give him a bogus excuse.

Then consider that he's contaminating this sampling by leading her conversation with his input.

It's also just a sampling from ONE woman... and a 19 y.o. at that. She could just be a loon in the first place. Most women that flake aren't loons or immature, they purposely flake.

Any empirical truisms that may be in her conversation are mixed in and lost with all the nonsense.

Bottom line: there are guys who wish to roll up their sleeves and continue to work uphill with women who flake on them. Refusing to belive that it's actually either about that they're dealing with loons or that they're dealing with women who are toying with them and not that interested, they simply must win or face a blow to their ego, and so, we continue to see long threads dissecting this matter of flaking every which way in support of trying to win over these women.

The occasional success in scoring makes these guys act like rats in a scientific experiment: Put a rat in a maze and he finds a piece of cheese down tunnel # 3. Then put him back in that maze 100 more times - without any cheese - and he will keep going down tunnel # 3 because, hey! There was cheese there once, and if I keep on doing this, there's got to be cheese again sooner or later!

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Now here is the GOLDEN TRUTH.

WAKE UP MEN. You are in a MATRIX within a MATRIX.

Listen to the truth. I have had 1 flake out of the hundreds of women I have dated in the past couple years. Why am I so successful??

I only date highly interested women. Why would I call a girl back for a second date unless she showed me significant IL on the first?

A girl who WANTS you will make it known. BELIEVE ME!

If you have to GUESS, either your GUT is damaged from all your prior rejections or she is just not that into you. If the latter, then why would you call her?

Will you just TAKE any girl who will talk to you? Have some self-respect and prizability. Does a prince chase women?

Chasing uninterested women MOLDS your prizability and self-perception. It is a self-fulfilling prophecy.

Chase uninterested women =>rejection => lower self confidence =>Chase uninterested women.

Do not CHASE uninterested women and you will ELIMINATE 99% of flakes.

So let me ask a question here about how we can define "flake". I will give you my situation, and then give a little bit of extra info, and then you tell me what I should do. I'll also tell you what I did do.

I work with a girl.. let's call her Jen. Jen is 10yrs younger than me, and we flirt back and forth. Though Jen still has a boyfriend, she is still interested in me because of the way she acts.

This week I saw her and said... "Hey, so and so and you should come over and play pool and darts"

First I told her someone else AND her should come over. The other girl is one I work with who is just a friend, and she knows that. However, I didnt say YOU and so and so, so it didn't sound as needy. When I said that, I didnt even give her a day, or time. I just said "some time" She was like... How about Saturday? Then I said... Well, i'll check and see if so and so is cool with it and get back to you. The next day I was going to tell her, she wasn't at work. So I got a hold of her cell number cause I knew I wouldn't see her for another week. I texted her and said... Hey, So and so said she was down for Sat. She was like... Ok..... I'm not quite sure yet if I can, but i'll let you know. Also too, she wasn't 100% sure the day she through out Sat either. So then she talked about beating my ass at everything Sat, and then that was about it.

Friday I texted her and said... Well, are we on for Sat or not? NOTHING. I was like ok....i'll wait and see.

Saturday I knew she worked, and knew she probably couldn't tell me at work cause she'd be too busy, so I knew she would tell me later in the day. I waited till she was off and NOTHING. Waited till the evening, and NOTHING. Time passed and it was 10pm and I finished watching basketball and knew she probably wouldn't respond.

So here is the thing... SHE DIDNT SAY YES OR NO, but obviously it was a no because she didnt come over.

Now I am not one to make excuses, but what if her phone died? What if she lost it? What if she deleted all 3 of my txt and totally forgot to put my number in her phone, so she didnt have it, and no one else had it she knew? What if she had family problems?

Now all of these are "what ifs" but I would feel stupid for even saying she was flaky in the least if something like that was the TRUE reason.

So here is Sunday and I haven't texted her, and I wont see her till Wednesday.

I mean she was so ready to come over if she didnt have anything going on, I thought she might pee her pants.

But what upsets me, is that she didnt even bother to say... "Hey, sorry I cant make it tomorrow or tonight but what I wasn't sure of became a sure, and we will have to do it again?

But again if she forgot to save my number, lost her phone, etc, she wouldn't have been able to say that.

Anyway I haven't said anything to her yet, cause I dont know what to make of it. I say something to her, i'm screwed, and if I dont, she'll be like...why didnt you text again? I so accidentally deleted your number and didnt have it, or I would have come over

I thought about the text where the OP said she was disorganized and how his bratty sister....yadda yadda

I hate to text again cause then it seems like I am almost bugging, and that I am a little kid. I feel like SHE should be the one to text or call and justify WHY she never said yes or no.