The Marriage Goal

OK I'm just gonna go out on a limb here and drop all of the psychology speak so you guys will understand me. There's been a rash of "how do I get married" threads on the Mature forum lately and not to put too fine a point on it, but it's really beiginning to sound more like a Promise Keepers convention here than any really useful information being discussed. I saw a bumper sticker with the Promise Keepers standard self-affirming propaganda "I LOVE MY WIFE", slapped to the back of an SUV driving to the gym yesterday. I thought about this for a second and I got really pissed, then I heard the words of Chris Rock echoing in my head "YOU'RE SUPPOSED TO YOU DUMB MUTHAH-FUKKAH! WHAT DO YOU WANT, A COOKIE?"

I mean really! Have we become so emascualted a society that we have to chant our mantras to stay faithful to people with whom we make committments to? Who are we convincing with this sh!t? Ourselves? Are the women we decided to marry or even decided to be exclusive with so universally insecure that we have to make a continual effort to convince them? How many women have bumper sticker that read "I LOVE MY HUSBAND"?

We have got to pull our heads out of our collective asses and stop seeing marriage or an LTR as a goal state. Most of these threads revolve around seeing and idealizing an LTR/marriage as some lofty achievement, but all this does is put a new spin on placing a woman on a pedestal and make an AFC seem legitimate because he's striving for something that looks like integrity in his AFC way.

The vast majority of women in western society aren't preoccupied with improving themselves to be better mates for their idealized husbands. They're not slapping "I LOVE MY HUSBAND" bumperstickers on their SUVs. They're not posting reponses to threads asking if it's possible to be faithful to a husband. They're not buying books on how bang their husbands better, how to be a better homemaker or how to be a better wife. They're buying books and subscribing to magazines on how to change YOU into their idealized concept husband, and when you predispose yourself to identifying with their expectations - before you've even met them - their efforts are made only that much easier.

We all love to rage against the feminized influence in our culture on any variety of fronts on this forum. We swell with a self-righteous indignation about how "feminist women" have ruined society, but you're playing exactly the role this influence wants you to by being so overwhelmingly concerned with finding a mythological soulmate, the ONE, or my recent favorite ambiguity, a "quality woman" (whatever the fukk that's supposed to mean). Women have become men and men have become women. I hear and read far more men than women desperately searching for an ideal that they've been sold for the better part of their lives, now than ever before. Just casually troll any online matchmaking site and you'll see a far higher concentration of male members than female - so much so that female memberships are often free to increase their listings.

All of this is a result of feminization in society. So for the sake of mankind and the futures of your sons, please, lets all pull our heads out of our asses and refuse to make LTRs & marriage such a dominant priority in our lives. I'm not saying don't get married or entertain an LTR, there's nothing wrong with monogamy (when you're prepared for it). I'm saying let it be a by-product of your life's perspective. Strive toward your personal goals, improve your mind, body, spirit and enjoy the confidence that comes from that strength. Women want to marry MEN, not other women. Stop molding yourselves into what you think a woman wants from a guy/husband/BF under the guise of "striving to be a man of integrity." Instead, be a man of integrity by defining yourself and your own direction - even when it takes balls to do things that seem counterintuitive to what feminization has conditioned into you.

Rollo Tomassi said:

The vast majority of women in western society aren't preoccupied with improving themselves to be better mates for their idealized husbands. They're not slapping "I LOVE MY HUSBAND" bumperstickers on their SUVs. They're not posting reponses to threads asking if it's possible to be faithful to a husband. They're not buying books on how bang their husbands better, how to be a better homemaker or how to be a better wife. They're buying books and subscribing to magazines on how to change YOU into their idealized concept husband, and when you predispose yourself to identifying with their expectations - before you've even met them - their efforts are made only that much easier.

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YEAH!

Women are putting themselves first! Their lives, ambitions, their goals, etc. Women are no longer putting family first!

The bra burning feminist movement IS responsible for this. And, I don't believe it's really a bad thing. Equality, fairness, blah blah blah... it's not all bad.

I believe that just as there was feminist movement, there has yet to be a "men stepping up their game to compensate" movement. Instead, there has been a "men rolling over onto their backs and learning to use a tampon" movement.

Instead of burning bras, I say we men should all meet in town centers and burn our "feminine sides"!
:rockon:

Rollo Tomassi said:

Women have become men and men have become women.

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I'm changing my signature...

Edit: had to take out the "box" smiley... wrong tone.

Vulpine said:

Women are putting themselves first! Their lives, ambitions, their goals, etc. Women are no longer putting family first!

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I'd argue, men are putting themselves last. This isn't a rant for men to shake their fists at women, it's a rant for men to reassess themselves and realize why they're putting themselves last.

I understand that, which is I noted that the feminist movement isn't as negative as it's regarded here.

You are right, it is better worded as "men are putting themselves last". But the spirit of my post is that men have cried about the change instead of manning up.

I didn't intend to bash women, but instead point out that women's priorities have changed more towards self-preservation, and men's have changed away from self-preservation.

I totally agree. It's frustrating as an independent woman, to find an attractive guy, and discover he's a ball of mush n' gush.

I'd argue, men are putting themselves last. This isn't a rant for men to shake their fists at women, it's a rant for men to reassess themselves and realize why they're putting themselves last.

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Totally agree with this.

Rollo,

I agree. It does seem that men are the ones fantisizing about being family men; however, there are contributing factors that keep them wired in.

The guys who post on these, excluding the ones who clearly state their age, are under 30 from what I've seen. Personally, IMO they should be doing the things to help develop into the man they plan to be.

I think hard wiring isn't the only problem, but a constant battering outside forces.

Most are falling short because of the contributing factors surrounding them. Here are a few.

Peer pressue, LOL, most of the men out here still involve themselves in tight knit social circles. When their "boy" gets a new car, they feel the need to buy one as well. Almost as you say Rollo, "a [dik] measuring contest". The same way with Marriage. These guys get married because their friends are lying to them telling them how great marriage is. So they start feeling inadequate in ways of appeal. Thinking "I'm not so attractive, I'm still on the draft board." Not realizing these same buddies are not content because the booty they married they aren't getting everynight like they thought. HA. If you call yourself a man and still let your friends influence you, then you haven't learned to think for yourself. So you'll fall for anything.

Family. Man, the older I get I here more and more family asking me what I'm waiting on. I got wise, and I started saying, "Jesus." LOL. Family can be a loving. They can also be selfish and loving. I've been apart of one messy divorce as a kid. Yet, I've seen common law marriage work for almost three decades. Independence is my middle name. But most of these guys raised in structured families probably never heard their Pops give the advice of "Stick and Move."

These are few things I can see pushing / influencing guys. What about the single guys who work 9 -5 to pay rent/mortgage? They aren't expected to be Bruce Wayne during the day and a Terror on the town at night. Man getting to work is a chore in itself. I contract with the Military. I can't be wasted in some Coloniel's face, eventhough, they might have fifth in the top drawer of their desk. What's best for me? I'm not yelling marriage or LTR because I'm no fool anymore, yet me burning the candle at both ends isn't convienient during the week. Occasionally, I do get hyped to step out.

I don't know if you guys have jobs or not. There isn't much time for me personally working two jobs and spinning plates all week. The weekend becomes more available yet for a woman who looses interest almost by the hour she more than likely will cancel. I'm all for marriage and LTR, but with the right woman for me. Spinning plates theory for me has shown me a whole new world, but I need to spin more plates. More plates, mean more time, which I don't seem to have lately.

Should I sell out and take a dive for a LTR, just to get the main essntials??

Just my take on it...

(Sorry a little long winded today...)

"You'r either married and bored or single and lonley."

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AS13dTbAdcI

Rollo Tomassi said:

Strive toward your personal goals, improve your mind, body, spirit and enjoy the confidence that comes from that strength. Women want to marry MEN, not other women. Stop molding yourselves into what you think a woman wants from a guy/husband/BF under the guise of "striving to be a man of integrity." Instead, be a man of integrity by defining yourself and your own direction - even when it takes balls to do things that seem counterintuitive to what feminization has conditioned into you.

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This is exactly what I did in the time between my divorce and getting re-married back in July.

It has made all the difference. This is the first satisfying relationship I have ever experienced.

If you don't know who you are, you are susceptible to being changed into what she has been programmed to expect and want from a husband.

If you don't know what you want from a mate, how can you expect your mate to give it to you?

Let’s be even more blunt: MOST MEN HAVE BECOME COWARDS.

Now days it takes real balls and a stubborn independent streak to NOT acquiesce and get married. I salute those who have chosen to remain unmarried when marriage was thrust upon them.

We are a society of conformists, we fear swimming against the current, of saying “yes” when we know the correct answer is “no”.

We fear offending, of choosing an unpopular path, and because we fear we become desperate, and because we are desperate we do not choose the right. And when we choose the wrong when we know what is right, we become cowards.

grinder said:

Let’s be even more blunt: MOST MEN HAVE BECOME COWARDS.

Now days it takes real balls and a stubborn independent streak to NOT acquiesce and get married. I salute those who have chosen to remain unmarried when marriage was thrust upon them.

We are a society of conformists, we fear swimming against the current, of saying “yes” when we know the correct answer is “no”.

We fear offending, of choosing an unpopular path, and because we fear we become desperate, and because we are desperate we do not choose the right. And when we choose the wrong when we know what is right, we become cowards.

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sociopath (plural sociopaths)
1. A person with an antisocial personality disorder
2. A psychopath

psychopath (plural psychopaths)
1. A person with a personality disorder indicated by a pattern of lying, exploitiveness, heedlessness, arrogance, sexual promiscuity, low self-control, and lack of empathy and remorse. Such an individual may be especially prone to violent and criminal offenses.
2. A person diagnosed with antisocial or dissocial personality disorder.
3. A person who has no moral conscience.
4. Popular A person who perpetrates especially gruesome or bizarre violent acts.


See, many guys are afraid of the labels. I've come to embrace them. I know that my life has become a pattern of exploitiveness, heedlessness, arrogance, sexual promiscuity, low self-control, and lack of empathy and remorse. So, by definition, I'm a psychopath. And by default, then, I'm also a sociopath.

WeeeeeEEEEE! :cheer:

I don't feel guilt for a lot of things that Dr. Phil says I should, I'm out to "get mine", I don't care what people "want", I have a healthy self-esteem, I love to fux women - two or more at a time if I can manage - and it's hard for me to resist two or more naked women in my bed... guess what, I don't regret naked women in my bed, nor do I feel sorry for them.

Well, when you go against the grain, you get labelled.

"Witch! Witch! Burn the Witch!"
"You're a player."
"You're conceited and arrogant."
"You're psycho!"
(you get the idea)

The reason why women have become men is because they are more in demand when they are younger.

The reason for this is two fold:

1. Women don't have to worry about getting sex from a desirable man - there are enough good looking/successful men that will **** well below their standards.
2. They also date older guys so this increases the dating pool for them when they are younger.

It's basically supply and demand.

This makes guys think that the best way to "win" these girls is by showing them how different they are by playing the nice guy card.

Well things change as you get older and the girl's stock plummet as they look to settle down and have kids because:

1. They're no longer as hot
2. They are on the clock (Guys aren't)
3. Younger girls are now after the average Joe's for their maturity/money and for some fun and experience. They're guys' equivalent to the good looking man-*****.

Basically the solution is to ALWAYS date girls younger than you and don't get married unless you are ready to have kids.

I keep telling one of my good friends that getting married should not be a goal in his life. He's hellbent on thinking being in a relationship is somehow better than being single, and is the perfect example of all things AFC. Funny thing is another mutual friend and I began reading this stuff about six years ago, and King AFC thought it was ridiculous. I fear for his future bad marriage and even worse divorce.

I remember when finding a girlfriend WAS THE GOAL. I think being turned down time after time in high school was a big reason this became my mindset. Then I found a girlfriend and fell in love harder than I likely ever will again, with anyone or anything. It was actually a pretty good relationship for a while. It took me a while to find another girl, I was still petrified of them. After that second gf I snapped out of wanting a relationship so bad, though I pursued it from time to time when I really shouldn't have. It's a horrible mindset to have. It brought me more trouble than it was worth.

A few comments to the original poster:
> What are a couple of threads you consider as the "how do i get married threads"? Ive seen some threads about marriage in the mature forum and topics associated with marriage, but the lions share have ranged from slighty anti-marriage to an outright marriage bashing (ie: it provides nothing for the man, and everything for the woman type arguments). This is just an observation.

> The "I LOVE MY WIFE" bumper sticker is indeed super AFC. (gonna step on some toes here)... but i see all "jesus-freaks" as being AFC. Can you get more AFC than turning the other cheek? Anyone that wants to be really AFC will google WWJD and follow those rules.

>I see "loving one's wife" and remaining faithful as 100% mutually exclusive, so i really wasnt able to follow part of your argument. I'm not even open to opinion on this. You switched between the two as if they were one in the same. You can have any combination of love/not love spouse, cheat/not cheat on spouse (4 possible combinations).

>Where i live, i see a great deal of men not seeing marriage as a goal,and i know several women that are trying to permanently hook a man. It wasnt just 2 days ago that one of my wife's friends came over and was lamenting because her steady boyfriend wont propose to her. So are you saying this has now switched? I'm just not seeing that where i live. I still see the women trying to coerce the men into marriages, and a lot of the men not going for it.

>You say women aren't talking about is it possible to remain faithful to husbands, or they're not concerned about how to please their husband better, yet massively popular websites like ivillage have women doing exactly this. Have you ever checked out ivillage RT, just out of curiosity? All of that is there. I bet those women magazines cover that too.

> I bet not even 5% believe in soulmates here, figuratively or literally. And use of "quality" woman and a "keeper" are highly generic terms that have at least some meaning to anyone that can break 80 on an IQ test. If you hate those terms so much, then what word would you prefer the commoners use to distinguish between those woman that are only good for f****** and those that might actually warrant some type of relationship? As i said, i f****** approximately 7 women in my life, and 6 were the former type.

> In your last paragraph, you just about made up for all of the previous garbage (exceptions being i fully agree "I LOVE MY WIFE" bumper stickers and promise keepers are both sad things). Its like you got wise in the very end. I agreed with every bit of that last paragraph.

Well... I think it's simple.

- I agree that you always place yourself first, married/relationship or not. It helps yourself, attraction and the marriage. This is a lifelong thing.

- I agree that most women aren't suitable for a marriage. You'd probably be happier being single your entire life than marrying the majority of women in the US now.

- I think having kids can add a dimension into your life that brings a certain degree of satisfaction that can't be experienced elsewhere.

- I don't think you should make marriage and kids a goal unless you find a woman that is not like the way you describe - (They're buying books and subscribing to magazines on how to change YOU into their idealized concept husband [which is true]). There are some girls out there that still place more priority in ambition than manipulation... unfortunately the ones I've seen - they are married now.

- In regards to the kids thing, if you think you want to have them, then I think you need to keep in mind this timeframe of finding a suitable girl (which forces marriage a goal somewhat), otherwise the opportunity is lost and you are better off not marrying.

I think this is why marriage unfortunately has to be seen as a goal sometimes... if you want to have kids, you have a limited timeframe to find a suitable girl, otherwise the opportunity is lost. BUT this does not mean your girl is placed on a pedestal if she feels the same way. Then you are both in agreement and reciprocation.

- The problem with not placing marriage as a goal in this case is that you lose an opportunity.

- Don't waste time in your 20s-30s. Make yourself the best person you can be so you don't settle for something that would kill your freedom and ambitions. If you don't find a suitable and equal partner, you default to option A... no marriage/kids... just yourself first and relationships/fvcking.

This is the way I see things right now. I'm 25.

Yo,


I know of a few friends myself who got caught up in the marriage as goal mentality. One just kind of went along quietly, and two aggressively sought after it...lol

Guy "A" is a friend of mine who basically went from his mom's house to his wife's house. But ironically, he was actually a big time player at first. Much of my earlier mack moves I learned from hanging around HIM. lol

But when he settled down, it's like all of his natural game dissipated and he now passively just follows his wife around. She makes the Lion's share of the decisions in their household, and he just acquieses and complains to ME about it later.

Guy "B" is a friend of mine who places an extremely HIGH priority on sexual pleasure. He's a kinky-assed dynamo who loves to freak the hell out of women. The only thing is, once he's freaked them thoroughly, he fails to realize that they've ALSO freaked him too.

But by that time, it's too late, he's hooked. So what he does is try and lock'em down with a wedding ring so that they won't go nowhere. He's tried this twice already with varying degrees of success. The last time we spoke, he was on his way to getting married again for the third time, IF he can get the chick to agree to it...

Lastly, Guy "C" is another friend of mine who is now married for the THIRD time. His "deal" is that he's a perrenial nice guy who used to have a real hard time getting girls when we were growing up. But now when he meets women, he pulls out all the stops and charms the hell out of them.

Then, HE falls in love while THEY fall into temporary infatuation. He then proposes to them---and SOMETIMES more than ONCE, until they finally agree to marry him. But after the wedding (and I'd argue, even BEFORE) their obvious low interest level in him definitely comes to the surface.

He's miserable right now. But the kicker is that before he even married her, a few of us were gonna try to talk him out it, but you know what he told us? He said "I've made my mind up. I'm gonna marry her, and I don't wanna hear nothing negative about it!" So nowadays, all he does is MOSTLY speak negatively about her to US.

But having reported all this bad news, I still don't believe that some guy having marriage as a goal is the REAL problem. I think the bigger problem is deciphering WHY these guys think that marriage is somehow a cure-all for whatever ails them.

I believe that if the guys and the gals were healthier, and their mutual motivations were healthier, THEN maybe marriage itself would also be a healthier goal as well.



Peace...one day.

This is one of those things that balances the universe.

For women, marriage should understandably be the GOAL. For men it shoudl be the other way around. Now that women are running around wanting to be MEN, the pendulum swings off center and something (men having marriage as a goal) comes along to bring balance.

Until men go back to being men and women back to being women, this is how it's gonna be, unfortunately. Is this gonna change any time soon? I don't think I will see it in my lifetime.

grinder said:

Let’s be even more blunt: MOST MEN HAVE BECOME COWARDS.

Now days it takes real balls and a stubborn independent streak to NOT acquiesce and get married. I salute those who have chosen to remain unmarried when marriage was thrust upon them.

We are a society of conformists, we fear swimming against the current, of saying “yes” when we know the correct answer is “no”.

We fear offending, of choosing an unpopular path, and because we fear we become desperate, and because we are desperate we do not choose the right. And when we choose the wrong when we know what is right, we become cowards.

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I thought of what to reply to this thread, and came up with several drafts of a post which I eventually deleted. This reponse really rings home the truth of the matter. We are told we have to be members of a working middle class, and we do it. We are told we should obey a religious institution called marrige, and we do it.

As you put it, we are afraid of going against the flow.

I think this is what separates the mediocre people from the extraordinary people. Those who aren't afraid to take risks, and reaping the reward. I tell my family I want to retire from full time work at age 40, and I get laughed at because they never did it. they were too afraid to take the jumps, and put a lot of money at risk. they wanted to conform with society, and have kids and work as middle class.

Those who think they will be average, will be average. Those who think the only solution to life is marriage, is marriage. Those who think they can do more, will . You miss 100 percent of the shots you never take.

I see marriage down the road for me, if I meet a girl I like. If not, this will not stop me from my goal of freedom down the road.

synergy1 said:

I thought of what to reply to this thread, and came up with several drafts of a post which I eventually deleted. This reponse really rings home the truth of the matter. We are told we have to be members of a working middle class, and we do it. We are told we should obey a religious institution called marrige, and we do it.

As you put it, we are afraid of going against the flow.

I think this is what separates the mediocre people from the extraordinary people. Those who aren't afraid to take risks, and reaping the reward. I tell my family I want to retire from full time work at age 40, and I get laughed at because they never did it. they were too afraid to take the jumps, and put a lot of money at risk. they wanted to conform with society, and have kids and work as middle class.

Those who think they will be average, will be average. Those who think the only solution to life is marriage, is marriage. Those who think they can do more, will . You miss 100 percent of the shots you never take.

I see marriage down the road for me, if I meet a girl I like. If not, this will not stop me from my goal of freedom down the road.

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I've found that the majority of people are like this. Thankfully, my best friend and I have been reinventing what we personally believe is the best way for him and I to live our lives. We constantly see conformity as a bad thing, mainly because the people going that route are unhappy unless they are doing key things differently. It baffles me that when people are unhappy with their lives they preach exactly what they did, instead of looking at what they could do differently to improve things.

Victory Unlimited said:

But having reported all this bad news, I still don't believe that some guy having marriage as a goal is the REAL problem. I think the bigger problem is deciphering WHY these guys think that marriage is somehow a cure-all for whatever ails them.

I believe that if the guys and the gals were healthier, and their mutual motivations were healthier, THEN maybe marriage itself would also be a healthier goal as well.

Peace...one day.

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amen to that.

im always saying on here that finding your life philosophy is key in life. get the hell out of the carrot and stick model of living.

like a mule so many people are only able to cope with life as long as they are chasing after some carrot.

Get good grades in high school so you can get into a good university. then youll be happy. but oh oh, you aren't. ok, no problem, get good university grades and get a good job. then youll be hapy. oh oh, still not working. ok, get those promotions, work work work, save, buy that car, buy that 3k watch. now youll be happy! SH*T, still not happy, what's going on? ok ok, i know, get married, buy the house, get some kids - surely now youll finally be happy. F*CK - still not happy. what the f*ck is going on? ok ok, its impossible to be happy while working and having a wife and kids and mortage etc. - so f*ck it, youll be happy when you retire. work harder harder harder, save that money, hit 55 and retire. spend 3 months kicking around the house. start looking back on life and wishing you could do it all over again, but differently. happy yet? not happy - BEATEN. And so you drag yourself through your remaining years with a few happy days here and then and one day DIE.

welcome to the formula of 95% of the human race. people follow the formula because they think it will, at some point, make them happy.

happiness comes from within. it comes with how you feel about yourself and how you think about life.

i think university, a good job, marriage and retirement can all be awesome things. heck, they are valuable experiences in life and they help you have a more enriching life. BUT if you aren't happy inside you will make all those experiences unhappy ones! but if you ARE happy inside all those experiences will be enjoyable ones!

who you are inside has a MUCH greater effect on your world than you could ever believe.

the question is NOT whether to do what others are doing or not. its NOT about whether to conform or not. you can drop out of the system and it won't do you any good.

the question is do you take the time to develop a life philosophy, learn how to be a happy person regardless of your external circumstances and embrace life.

that, in my opinion, is the only question that matters in life because it determines 95% of what happens in your life. whether that be women, your health, your finances, your job, your family, etc. - establish a life philosophy and it becomes VERY easy to make what others consider to be tough decisions in life. its also when you will find your path and everythign will start (i emphasize start - life is a never ending process) to fall in place.