Protein

zerocelcius · Oct 20, 2006

Protein is directly linked to muscle growth and repair.
If you lift weights you should eat more protein than the normal Joe.
BUT that doesn't mean you have to eat a ton of the stuff.

15% of your daily calories from protein rich foods like fish, poultry, red meat, tofu, beans, and dairy.

Example: 175 pound guy 5' 10" will need to eat 143 grams of protein a day.
That ='s two chicken breasts, a cup of low-fat cottage cheese, and .5 cup of black beans.

The RDA for Protein is 0.8 gram per kilogram of body weight, but that's for a normal Joe. Most nutritionists, coaches, and athletes disagree on how much you should eat, but it is likely to fall between 1.4 and 1.8 grams per kilogram of body weight. According to Peter Lemon, Ph.D. you can determine your approximate protein requirements with the following formula. Divide your body weight by 2.2 (the number of pounds in a kilogram) and than multiply by the number of suggested grams of protein. 1.4 low 1.8 high.

But if you hate math like my here it is broke down already:

Weight Loss Weight Gain
Body weight Calories Protein Fat Carbs Calories Protein Fat Carbs
170 2135 139 47 288 3235 139 72 508
180 2290 147 51 311 3390 147 75 531
190 2445 155 54 334 3545 155 79 554
200 2600 163 58 357 3700 163 82 577
210 2755 172 61 379 3855 172 86 599

This is not a cookie cutter table. If you work more than most you have to adapt you calorie intake. If you loose more than 2 pounds a week you need to up your calorie intake by 300-500. Same if you gain 2 pounds a week you need to cut calorie intake by 300-500.

But if you notice the protein stays the same for both goals. Gain or Loss.

Warboss Alex · Oct 20, 2006

zerocelcius said:
Protein is directly linked to muscle growth and repair.
If you lift weights you should eat more protein than the normal Joe.
BUT that doesn't mean you have to eat a ton of the stuff.

15% of your daily calories from protein rich foods like fish, poultry, red meat, tofu, beans, and dairy.

Example: 175 pound guy 5' 10" will need to eat 143 grams of protein a day.
That ='s two chicken breasts, a cup of low-fat cottage cheese, and .5 cup of black beans.

The RDA for Protein is 0.8 gram per kilogram of body weight, but that's for a normal Joe. Most nutritionists, coaches, and athletes disagree on how much you should eat, but it is likely to fall between 1.4 and 1.8 grams per kilogram of body weight. According to Peter Lemon, Ph.D. you can determine your approximate protein requirements with the following formula. Divide your body weight by 2.2 (the number of pounds in a kilogram) and than multiply by the number of suggested grams of protein. 1.4 low 1.8 high.

But if you hate math like my here it is broke down already:

Weight Loss Weight Gain
Body weight Calories Protein Fat Carbs Calories Protein Fat Carbs
170 2135 139 47 288 3235 139 72 508
180 2290 147 51 311 3390 147 75 531
190 2445 155 54 334 3545 155 79 554
200 2600 163 58 357 3700 163 82 577
210 2755 172 61 379 3855 172 86 599

This is not a cookie cutter table. If you work more than most you have to adapt you calorie intake. If you loose more than 2 pounds a week you need to up your calorie intake by 300-500. Same if you gain 2 pounds a week you need to cut calorie intake by 300-500.

But if you notice the protein stays the same for both goals. Gain or Loss.

lol. Who cares what Peter Lemon Ph.D says? Did he ever break 200lbs? Does he have a 700lb deadlift to his name?

Science is all well and good, but these are just numbers and figures which don't take into account so many other variables such as individual metabolism, your bodytype, daily activity level blah blah blah.

The simple fact is, the body will adapt. Place a demand on the body for protein utilisation (through heavy training and increased intake) and it will use it!

Of the pro bodybuilders in the world, only 2 or 3 take in less than 2g protein per lb. This is a pro bodybuilder with pro genetics and also drugs - they NEED that much protein to grow - why the hell could an average guy, with no drugs, and mediocre genetics grow optimally on less? Just doesn't compute to me.

You have good intentions Zero and I appreciate you're trying to help, so don't take this as a personal attack. This is my firm opinion based on real-world application and experience, which in the weightlifting game carries INFINITELY more weight than any amount of lab abstracts...

Fortunate_Juan · Oct 20, 2006

*cue frankenstein voice*

SOY PROTEIN BAD!!!!!!

*end frankenstein voice*

Soy protein contains isoflavones, isoflavones = phyto-estrogen.. phyto estrogen occupies the receptors that your normally produced estrogen would be going to. It seems to have a synergistic affect on itself and other estrogen, meaning the more you have the more you are going to get. Just an fyi. An old japanese wive's tale is that unfaithful husbands end up getting a lot of tofu from their wives...

zerocelcius · Oct 21, 2006

Warboss Alex said:
lol. Who cares what Peter Lemon Ph.D says? Did he ever break 200lbs? Does he have a 700lb deadlift to his name?

Science is all well and good, but these are just numbers and figures which don't take into account so many other variables such as individual metabolism, your bodytype, daily activity level blah blah blah.

The simple fact is, the body will adapt. Place a demand on the body for protein utilisation (through heavy training and increased intake) and it will use it!

Of the pro bodybuilders in the world, only 2 or 3 take in less than 2g protein per lb. This is a pro bodybuilder with pro genetics and also drugs - they NEED that much protein to grow - why the hell could an average guy, with no drugs, and mediocre genetics grow optimally on less? Just doesn't compute to me.

You have good intentions Zero and I appreciate you're trying to help, so don't take this as a personal attack. This is my firm opinion based on real-world application and experience, which in the weightlifting game carries INFINITELY more weight than any amount of lab abstracts...

2g compared to 1.8g isn't that much! The more protein you put into your system the harder it is on your kidneys. I was trying to keep people from doing something that would hurt them. I care what a pro says about stuff cause he did scientific studies and is one of the leading Dr. in the field. Your body will not use all the protein you put in it. It is just like creatien. BUT protein is bad for your kidneys at a overdose amount over time.

God why is it every time I post something I get blasted. I can't help but take it personal when it is every time. This is proven facts. Not Gym Theories.

I really don't get some of the logic on here.. It isn't like I said you should cut out protein completely or only eat bananas and take drugs....

Warboss Alex · Oct 21, 2006

zerocelcius said:
2g compared to 1.8g isn't that much!

You're saying 1.8g per kg.. I'm saying 2g per lb - which is about 4.4g per kg. HUGE difference.

[/quote]

The more protein you put into your system the harder it is on your kidneys. I was trying to keep people from doing something that would hurt them. I care what a pro says about stuff cause he did scientific studies and is one of the leading Dr. in the field. Your body will not use all the protein you put in it. It is just like creatien. BUT protein is bad for your kidneys at a overdose amount over time.

Your body uses all the carbs you put in it (as energy or as fat), why shouldn't it use all the protein? Go and squat 405 for 20 reps then come back and tell me that your body didn't find a need for all the protein!

However yes, we're putting the kidneys into overdrive with the huge protein intake. So we up our water intake to about 2 gallons a day. (basically 1 gallon per g protein per lb, so 2g per lb = 2 gallons). Eat high protein and little water, your urine will be dark, frothy and smelly .. your kidneys are in trouble. However drink enough water and your urine will be clean and clear as it should be!

(we also ideally supplement with calcium)

God why is it every time I post something I get blasted. I can't help but take it personal when it is every time. This is proven facts. Not Gym Theories.

Gym theories? This is gym experience my friend, amassed by myself and a great many trainers who are bigger, stronger and wiser than just you and me.

And you keep saying it's a proven fact.. okay then! Show me some evidence that high protein is bad for you! If you want to play the 'science' card, show me a study that high protein intake among adequately hydrated weight trainers caused any sort of kidney trouble...

I really don't get some of the logic on here.. It isn't like I said you should cut out protein completely or only eat bananas and take drugs....

I would love a banana-and-chocolate-donut diet but I don't need a study to tell me that won't work for optimum lean muscle gains. Wait, it might, hmm, I gotta try that...

(actually through being daft, that last paragraph of mine has the golden words: "try that" .. as in, Zero, double your protein intake and see what happens. also double your hydration of course.)

zerocelcius · Oct 21, 2006

Ah yes again you are right! If you up the protein you must up the water! Like I have been saying... See now we are saying the same thing but still arguing about it...?

Here is your study. http://www.maxmuscle.com/index.cfm?fa=article&doc_id=88&subcat=science

See Add more water but also calcium and better yet get the protein from diet and not from a tub.

zerocelcius · Oct 21, 2006

here is another link of protein:
http://www.maxmuscle.com/index.cfm?fa=article&doc_id=174&subcat=science

zerocelcius · Oct 21, 2006

Ok I am just going to say this in the end. More protein means you have to use it! DO more and Drink more water!

But if you can't go do 450lbs Squats 20 times drop your protein to just what you get in your diet.

If you can do 450lbs squats don't even worry about what I am writing 'cause you are way beyond anybody else! And what works for you only works for you and nobody else!

EFFORT · Oct 21, 2006

Your getting "blasted" a lot on here because your coming out of nowhere posting stuff that doesn't go with what really works in the real world. Its also frustrating for the people that have been working to help people get the right concept of weightlifting in their head.. since a lot of people have screwed up theories of what works and it seems as though were finally getting a better understanding of things.

You think your getting blasted here? I dare you to go to Intensemuscle.com or Ironaddicts.com and post the same stuff your posting here and see what happens.

Warboss Alex · Oct 21, 2006

It's not so much what he's posting that I take exception to, he's not the first nor will he be the last person to take the 'scientific' route to no-gains land, it's the fact that he came on here touting his 'male stripper' looks and 9.3 or whatever on hotornot.com as being credentials to dish out weightlifting or diet advice? I mean, put Sean Connery on hotornot, he'd get a 9.5+ score for sure, but would you ask either of them how to diet or deadlift? If ol' Sean can pull 700lbs I'd listen to him..

EFFORT said:
You think your getting blasted here? I dare you to go to Intensemuscle.com or Ironaddicts.com and post the same stuff your posting here and see what happens.

lol.. I believe lately on IM, Skipper banned all the skinny runts from posting their nekkid ab pics because it was making the place look like a gay forum. And some of the pics were a lil disturbing. Who wants to see the crotch and abs on a buck fifty guy?

mrRuckus · Oct 21, 2006

Zerocelcius, this argument is old and boring. You're not the first and not the last anti-protein guy coming in posting study after study while ignoring the studies that say otherwise. Not to mention actual field experience of huge mofos in perfect health who lo and behold run around yelling about how their gains exploded when they upped their protein. And holy crap their pee pee is still clear without turning orange.

Studies seem to be retarded. For every study for something there's a study against the same thing. Just like EVERYTHING causes cancer nowadays.

In regards to kidney function, I have no idea where people get this idea that your kidneys are going to explode from protein. Do you actually read this stuff somewhere or is it just lay people passing it by word of mouth to each other? I mean, i do a google on something like "high protein kidney function" and every link on the first page is to something that says "it only matters if you have bad kidneys to begin with."

For example here is one:
http://www.mercola.com/2003/apr/5/high_protein_diet.htm

and doesn't it just make sense? If you're kidneys already suck and you work them harder of course you're going to have more problems. This is like having midgets running your grocery store and double stacking the top shelves and not using the bottom shelves. Ok that's almost nothing like i said - i just wanted there to be midgets in my post.

mrRuckus · Oct 21, 2006

Warboss Alex said:
lol.. I believe lately on IM, Skipper banned all the skinny runts from posting their nekkid ab pics because it was making the place look like a gay forum. And some of the pics were a lil disturbing. Who wants to see the crotch and abs on a buck fifty guy?

haha, yeah you're not allowed to have an avatar that's a picture of you unless you actually look like you work out. It's bad press if you're 150 lbs and are like "i do DC!" when the program is marketed to make you the hugest monstrous being possible.

Warboss Alex · Oct 21, 2006

mrRuckus said:
haha, yeah you're not allowed to have an avatar that's a picture of you unless you actually look like you work out. It's bad press if you're 150 lbs and are like "i do DC!" when the program is marketed to make you the hugest monstrous being possible.

the program isn't marketed.. it's not a commercial thing. DC makes money from his protein company and doesn't train too many people anymore. It's for intensemuscle's sake and I agree with it, it's a quality site with elite trainers on there, if you're a buck fifty and arguing the merits of cable crossovers and 20g protein per meal you're not for that site.. simple.

Just like zero and the other protein bashers.. if you don't like my opinions, fine - stick with what you're doing, but don't try to rub bullshi.t in my face without expecting me to tell you to stick it.

spesmilitis · Oct 21, 2006

Can you guys give me any sources which state that getting over .5 grams of protien per body weight isn't damaging to your body for really athletic people. .5 is the highest my nutrition professor reccomended.

Don't get me wrong, i'll still stick to around 1.5 grams per pound cuz its effective for body building. Im sure that that number (.5) is higher for athletic people, but I havn't seen any sources that say otherwise (regarding health, not performance). From what I've seen so far, thats still damaging to your body. Its a tradeoff

Here are some problems related to excess protien consumption:

Direct problems:
-Mineral excreation
-kidney and liver damaga
-dehydration
-increased arthritis and gout risk
-kidney stones
Indirect problems:
-heart disease
-obesity
-cancer.

"Your body uses all the carbs you put in it (as energy or as fat), why shouldn't it use all the protein?"

Cuz your body can't store excess amino acids.

Source:
Nutrition for Health-Exercise and Sports Studies 3.
By :
-Frank I. Katch- Internation research scholo faculty of health and sport agder university college- Norway. Instructor and board member certificate program in fitness instruction, UCLA extention.
-Victor L. Katch- Professor, kinesiology associate progressor, university of michigan

Don't get me wrong, I know 1.5 is effective for performance, but I dont' know about health. Jumping from .5 to 1.5 seems to be a lot to me, even for athletic people.

Throttle · Oct 21, 2006

EFFORT said:
Your getting "blasted" a lot on here because your coming out of nowhere posting stuff that doesn't go with what really works in the real world. Its also frustrating for the people that have been working to help people get the right concept of weightlifting in their head.. since a lot of people have screwed up theories of what works and it seems as though were finally getting a better understanding of things.

ding ding ding! If I've come down hard on you at all hard, Zero, it's cuz this board has helped me get my stuff together over the last 12 months, consolidating what I already knew worked and pushing me forward. And I see you undermining that with advice that is sometimes shaky and other times downright troublesome.

Throttle · Oct 21, 2006

spesmilitis said:
Don't get me wrong, I know 1.5 is effective for performance, but I dont' know about health. Jumping from .5 to 1.5 seems to be a lot to me, even for athletic people.

(a) Ramp it up slowly if it concerns you. Or not at all; we're all free to ignore one another's advice.

(b) Make sure your urine is clear. I can feel my kidneys scream if I overdo protein & diuretics (my caffeine addiction, mostly) at the same time. It's your body, feel out what works.

(c) What WBA says about protein vs. post-workout soreness has proven true for me -- the better I blast myself with protein in both the 2 hour & 48 hour windows, the less sore I am, no matter how intense the workout.

(d) Get a routine physical from time to time, esp. if it's free or nearly free. Doc can tell you if something's way out of whack. Mostly they'll notice your bodyfat is down and want to know how you did it.

Warboss Alex · Oct 21, 2006

Why doesn't everyone just do their own thing protein-wise.. and report back in five years' time.

I'm tired of arguing.. actually I don't know why I keep trying to convince people, you're all asking me how to bulk up but you're also so stuck in your ways and that's fine, but don't ask me for advice if you're gonna query it. Stick to what you think is right, I'll stick to what I think is right, everyone will be happy..

Skilla_Staz · Oct 21, 2006

Well they might NOT be happy actually. Especially if they don't get anywhere...

Warboss Alex · Oct 21, 2006

Skilla_Staz said:
Well they might NOT be happy actually. Especially if they don't get anywhere...

That's their fault for being stuck in their ways and reading their studies.

btw, nice numbers there in your sig. keep it up!

Skilla_Staz · Oct 21, 2006

Thanks. I've got some pretty big goals though. I put them down in my workout journal. It's around here somewhere

Protein

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