Gaining muscle + losing fat simultaneously if already overweight?

Vintovka

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Just getting started with lifting and want to know if I should do things differently if I'm starting out at least 50 lbs overweight.

Most of these guides are coming from the prespective of a skinny guy. For me, adding weight hasn't been an issue, but it hasn't been muscle, heh.

Do I really need to eat 3500-4000 kclas a day?

What can I do to maximize muscle gain and fat loss? If I were to priortize my objectives, at this point I'm mainly concerned with losing some fat.

I've just started playing around with some dumbbells, doing curls, rows, military presses and some lunges every other day. I've been walking 2.5 miles a day in the evenings for the past few months as well.

Any guidance is appreciated, thanks.
 

Throttle

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Vintovka said:
Just getting started with lifting and want to know if I should do things differently if I'm starting out at least 50 lbs overweight.
Mostly, no. You want to do the same things. Why? If you try to lose weight by cutting calories & walking/running yourself to death, you will (a) make yourself feel deprived; (b) associate diet & exercise with punishment; (c) run the risk of lowering your metabolism, especially in the long run; and (d) take longer to achieve the same results.

You will (take it from me who has been there, done that) achieve better results if you immediately go into an intensive lifting program (see WBA's "Idiot's Guide" in progress), supplementing with cardio & a clean diet. More on that last part below. Lifting heavy makes the diet & cardio stuff easier for big guys like you & me.

Vintovka said:
Do I really need to eat 3500-4000 kclas a day?
Probably not. What matters for you is not the number of calories you take in, but what those calories consist of. Never, ever, ever eat less than 1600 kcals/day (as I see from other threads you've done before). That's just asking for trouble.

To clean up your diet, you need to:

- Eat a solid breakfast. This gets your metabolism going in the morning. Oatmeal or oat bran (your preference) is a good option. Consider cardio beforehand on an empty stomach.

- Focus on lean sources of protein for most meals.

- Eat a greater number of smaller meals. For example, a 6 oz. chicken breast might be your entire dinner. But you'll eat 4 or 5 more times before that, and maybe once afterwards.

- Get your carbs from whole grains, veggies, and to a lesser extent, fibrous fruits. Avoid sugar, simple starches (white bread, pasta, potatoes), and fruit juices whenever possible. EXCEPT right after you lift (juice & some sort of protein that absorbs quickly).

- Set a carb cutoff. If you crash at midnight, no carbs after 7 or 8 pm. Find a rule you can live with.

- Don't worry about fat intake for now, you need some to be healthy and your body will be looking for energy sources when you take away simple carbs. Stick to lean protein sources & fat intake will take care of itself.

- Allow yourself to cheat at least twice a week. Again, you will otherwise associate this exercise & dieting thing with deprivation. Human pyschology, no way around it.

- Find what works for you. There's lots of advice floating around, take it all with a grain of salt.


Vintovka said:
I've just started playing around with some dumbbells, doing curls, rows, military presses and some lunges every other day. I've been walking 2.5 miles a day in the evenings for the past few months as well.
As long as you just play around, lifting weights will gain you little. Get serious or let it go. It's that simple. Figure out the correct form for bench press, deadlifts, and squats, then start lifting heavy, and you could transform dramatically in 6-12 months, especially if you throw out the scale & don't look in a full length mirror for a while. It's up to you.

You've said in previous threads that you were restricting your kcals to 1500, and now you're wondering if 3500-4000 is too much? Find a happy medium. Try 3000-2500/day. Also, if you're 50 lbs. or more overweight, look for cardio that's relatively easy on the knees, like elliptical trainers. Your knees will thank you.

MOST of WBA's Idiot's guide applies to you. You could afford to go a little light on the calories, but I'd suggest you lift heavy & put some muscle on, which will make everything easier. Why? Weightlifting will give you positive rewards rather than a feeling of deprivation. And you can't gain muscle on 1500kcal/day, probably not even 2000kcal.
 

Quiksilver

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I've been walking 2.5 miles a day in the evenings...
My best advice is to focus on cardio cardio cardio cardio and CARDIO.

2.5km walk isn't going to do much. And stop measuring by distance.

Measure by Time, and Intensity(speed).

Try cardio in the range of 15 minutes + or - 5 min., and as intense as you can manage. This means do quick bursts of speed(10 seconds), then jog for a minute, quick burst of speed(10 seconds), and repeat. Keep doing this for 15 minutes(or whatever time you choose). It will do heaps more than walking for as long as you are. Keep in mind you will feel pretty tired afterwards, and want to shoot yourself in the foot. That is good, that is progress.

I know this is probably leaving you a little lost. Here is what I do now for cardio:

Monday -- 1.75mile run -- I'm going for faster times on this one.

Tuesday -- sprinting -- its hard to explain, ask me if you want details.

Wednesday -- 1.75 mile run again

Thursday -- sprinting

Friday -- 2.00mile run(i run flat out as long as I can, then fall into an interval pattern where i keep doing quick bursts as long as i can, then jogging, quick bursts, jogging, quick bursts jogging, etc etc etc...)

Saturday and Sunday are rest days, I dont lift a finger if i dont want to.

Hope this helps some, reply if you have any issues you want cleared up.
 

Quiksilver

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Originally posted by Throttle
You will (take it from me who has been there, done that) achieve better results if you immediately go into an intensive lifting program (see WBA's "Idiot's Guide" in progress), supplementing with cardio & a clean diet.
Correct me if I'm wrong, but shouldn't an intense lifting program(designed to bulk up/increase weight) start when you are at your desired weight? Sure lifting some iron is always beneficial, but not an intense program...Cardio, and good diet, SUPPLEMENTED by moderate lifting is more sensible as I see it.

I could be wrong, but it seems logical...

P.S. If you're 50lbs overweight, then yes you should start on machines that take some pressure off your knees, just know that these won't have the same effects.

And one more thing...Exercise should never, i mean NEVER seem like a chore or punishment. If you see it like that then something is wrong. Either you aren't seeing enough results to deem it worth going through the 'pain' of it, or you're overtraining, or your diet is out of whack.
 

Vintovka

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I've been meaning to try and up the intensity but my buddy I walk with has no interest in anything beyond a brisk pace. Thanks for the input both of you, much appreciated.
 

Vintovka

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Further more, I've switched to wheat bread and eating oatmeal again. I've cleaned up my diet alot from what it used to be, I even realized earlier today I haven't had Taco Bell in over a month and didn't care. So eating better has definately made me feel better.

I don't see exercise as a punishment but rather a means to an end. I know what I don't want to be anymore, and that I have to do something about it. I haven't had any 'highs' or elevated emotional levels from exercise though, not that I can tell anyway.

I'm getting there I reckon, slowly but surely.
 

Throttle

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Quiksilver said:
Correct me if I'm wrong, but shouldn't an intense lifting program(designed to bulk up/increase weight) start when you are at your desired weight? Sure lifting some iron is always beneficial, but not an intense program...Cardio, and good diet, SUPPLEMENTED by moderate lifting is more sensible as I see it.
If I'd waited until I was at my desireable weight before I started lifting intensely, I still wouldn't have started. I believe it's never too early to start lifting heavy. When I say lifting heavy, I mean

- getting the form right on major compound lifts like bench, deadlift & squat

- then pushing yourself as hard as you can stand 3 days a week, and

- making sure you eat enough & rest enough to recover in between.

For big guys like vintovka and I, we can't afford to wait until we're at--or even near our "ideal body weight" to lift heavy... every pound of bodyweight you drop through calorie reduction & cardio takes a whack (up to 1/4 lb.) off your musculature. This lowers your metabolism, and it becomes a losing battle. And it's way too tempting to try to cut out meals (worst of all, breakfast!) in a misguided belief that "food is bad." This leads to midnight carb cravings and worse.

I have watched my bf% drop from embarassing levels to fairly reasonable levels (still not where I want to be, but the goal is within sight) through a program of heavy lifting and clean eating, supplemented at times by various types of cardio. And the longer I eat clean, the more my body craves things that are good for it.

I did in fact lose some early body fat more with calorie reduction & cardio than lifting, but I plateaud quickly. And old (high school) lifting habits that didn't include deadlifts & squats held me back until I ran into this forum and bought into the Kool Aid (thanks guys!). I've come around to the view that calorie restriction is generally counterproductive, even for folks with bf% over 25%.

Quiksilver said:
P.S. If you're 50lbs overweight, then yes you should start on machines that take some pressure off your knees, just know that these won't have the same effects.
I believe you can get just as intense an interval workout on an elliptical machine or a road bike, but you have to push hard -- lots of machines, esp. recumbent bike machines, encourage laying back and lazing. Jogging & sprinting are naturally intense.
 

Throttle

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Vintovka said:
Further more, I've switched to wheat bread and eating oatmeal again.
Oatmeal :up:

Wheat bread... depends a lot on the actual contents. Lots of brown "wheat breads" don't have much fiber, and even whole wheat bread has a lot of carbs in it. Gotta read the label. But in any case, meals dominated primarily by lean protein sources can fill you up with hardly any carbs at all.
 

Warboss Alex

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Espi and Throttle have it covered.. don't go by Quicksilver's cardio advice because that pertains to him and him alone. Personally I'd have you eat more calories than 2000 though to keep perfomance levels good. Plus the more calories you eat the more muscle you'll gain.. try around the 3000 mark and judge from there.
 
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Warboss Alex

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Quiksilver said:
Correct me if I'm wrong, but shouldn't an intense lifting program(designed to bulk up/increase weight) start when you are at your desired weight? Sure lifting some iron is always beneficial, but not an intense program...Cardio, and good diet, SUPPLEMENTED by moderate lifting is more sensible as I see it.

I could be wrong, but it seems logical...
I can't see your logic then. Intense training burns more calories, plus builds muscle which burns calories just at rest because it's active tissue. Everyone should lift heavy, 'nless you wanna be a buck fifty five.
 

Warboss Alex

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Throttle said:
- Eat a solid breakfast. This gets your metabolism going in the morning. Oatmeal or oat bran (your preference) is a good option. Consider cardio beforehand on an empty stomach.
Empty stomach cardio will be the holy grail for you mate.. be consistent and the fat just melts off.
 

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Vintovka said:
Just getting started with lifting and want to know if I should do things differently if I'm starting out at least 50 lbs overweight.

Most of these guides are coming from the prespective of a skinny guy. For me, adding weight hasn't been an issue, but it hasn't been muscle, heh.

Do I really need to eat 3500-4000 kclas a day?

What can I do to maximize muscle gain and fat loss? If I were to priortize my objectives, at this point I'm mainly concerned with losing some fat.

I've just started playing around with some dumbbells, doing curls, rows, military presses and some lunges every other day. I've been walking 2.5 miles a day in the evenings for the past few months as well.

Any guidance is appreciated, thanks.
You're on to a good start. Remember that fat loss is primarily about your diet. Try starting out at 2,000 calories a day for starters then cut it down 200 calories every 2 weeks until you get to about 1500. Restart the cycle again after you've been at 1,500 calories for 2 weeks--it'll give your metabolism some rest once you bump your calories back up to 2,000.

In order to maximize muscle growth, yes it is possible on a cutting cycle, especially if you're new to the whole exercise thing. Muscle growth is all about overloading the muscle to momentary muscular failure then allowing it to rest for 48 hrs. Keep your workouts brief and intense, no longer than 30 minutes.
 
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