The 'Mature' AFC

WESTCOASTER and I have gone on in several different threads about "men" we know who've become married AFCs and older guys involved in LTRs where they allow themselves to become the passive/submissive partner in the relationship. From experience we can relate the stories of guys who laugh when they tell us how fortunate they are to have a gal who 'allows' them to watch Hockey or Football or men who make their own rationalizations for 'obeying' their Women's insecure natures. And just recently I went on about the Qualities that make an AFC in my own thread, but I came to realize that the condition we include that characterize what we term as AFC, change and evolve as we age.

AFCism (for lack of a better term) is a disease, and like any disease, if left untreated, it will mutate into different forms as it progresses until it kills or debilitates the host. Most 'advice' threads online approach dating, love, personal relationships from a very short-sighted, dare I say, juevenile point of view. This forum is unique in that it even has a Mature Man section, however, most others see things in short term behavioral patterns and only very rarely from a truly mature life-long perspective.

Needless to say, making short term decisions with long term consequences is hardly a way to live. I know far too many 40-60 y.o. men and women who internalize and put into practice the advices of 20-30 y.o.s who have entirely too immature realtional/social skills to be giving advice. When I read a 22 y.o. girl going into explicit detail about dating advice for a 45 y.o. divorcee "getting back into the game" I can only cringe. So desperate for help is this person that they'll disregard the maturity of the source.

This all brings me to the idea that mature AFCism, if left unchecked, will evolve into behaviors that will have lasting consequences not only for the AFC, but also for the people who's livelihoods depend on him. This degree of AFCism filters down into many aspects of his own life and the lives of others either directly or indirectly. Bear with me while I illustrate this with some personal experiences.

The man (small 'M' intended) I presently work for is a 66 y.o. AFC. He is a very successful, millionaire with many financial endeavours and a credit to his sense of business. That said, every success he has achieved was prompted by his need for feminine approval, women (and one in particular) have always been the PRIZE to him. He has built a small financial empire based on this AFCism that many other people are dependent upon. He constantly drops what he thinks are pithy comments about how "women are the power behind the throne" or how men will "never understand women", completely oblivious to his own personal status. I constantly see his business decisions colored by this very AFCism and I think about how I am dependent on this man for a paycheck.

When I lived in Reno I had a 63 y.o. man I counseled who had spent the better part of his life trying to find the 'key' that would make his wife of almost 30 years be intimate with him. Both in their 60's, she had gradually become indifferent to him and only held him as a concern when he was between jobs. When times were good he would buy "them" toys they couldn't afford - boats, ATVs, vacations - and in thin times it was nothing but constant bickering. This situation didn't develop because she was materialistic, but rather because he perceived this as a method to buy her affections and she became conditioned to it. At 63 the guy is bawling his eyes out since he'd reach the end of his rope. He'd run out of AFC ideas that would appease her. It was when I suggested he "Man-Up" and start implimenting some positive-masculine behaviors and developing this mindset he said, "I could never do that, it's just not me. She'd leave me for sure if I got tough."

AFCism isn't just for kids. The fallout and long term consequences carry over into middle and old age. One element to this is the notion that the last few generations of men have been brought up in a greater consentration by single mothers, absent fathers and negatively masculine/AFC fathers who themselves were brought up similarly. This is an easy mark, but observing and sorting out AFC behaviors of mature men and the complex dependencies they bear on others around them is tougher. I wish I could say that AFCism was an indication of failure and would be gradually weeded out of the mental schema gene-pool so to speak, but I can't. There are many successful men who still cling to AFC mentalities and in some cases are more driven than positively masculine Men.

Rollo Tomassi said:

The man (small 'M' intended) I presently work for is a 66 y.o. AFC. He is a very successful, millionaire with many financial endeavours and a credit to his sense of business. That said, every success he has achieved was prompted by his need for feminine approval, women (and one in particular) have always been the PRIZE to him. He has built a small financial empire based on this AFCism that many other people are dependent upon. He constantly drops what he thinks are pithy comments about how "women are the power behind the throne" or how men will "never understand women", completely oblivious to his own personal status. I constantly see his business decisions colored by this very AFCism and I think about how I am dependent on this man for a paycheck.

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What baffles me is how he could still be AFC after becoming a millionaire. For me, if I bring in a big job or even get a measley raise, my confidence shoots sky-high. That's the time when I should be out sarging. I can't even imagine if I was a millionaire with my own business, I'd be the biggest womanizer on Earth. There would be zero one-itis, that's for sure. I've come to the conclusion that some men like to be in the role of an AFC.

Haha I know SOOO many guys (in particular, this 30 yr. old football coach dating an 18 yr. old college student) that make quotes like, "I better go check up, I don't want to get in trouble!" Or rejoicing to be able to get away from their wife or like you said, something as small as watching a football game. It's like it's mainstream society nowadays, esp. prominent in suburbia and small towns.

I have a buddy who's wife is (1) drunk all the damm time, (2) dogs on him constantly (3) is a loud mouth b!tch (4) has sex occasionally. Yet when people ask how he's doing he says, "I'm married and happy these days." WTF?? Did I miss something? The boat left and I wasn't on the mother fukker. I refuse to accept sh!t like that as happiness. I will be single and fly to vegas once a year and drop 4 g's on a hooker before I live like that. Fortunately I have a good gf who respects and looks up to me and alas, I don't have those AFC problems.

My question is how these "mature" or married AFC's get the girl to marry them in the first place, because I usually got dumped within 2-3 months back in my chump-boy days (not exactly a long time ago). Maybe it's the money, but don't they all end up like millionaire in the end?

I use this example a lot ... friend of mine marries (b-tchy) gal in mid-20's after moving in with her at 21 or 22. He's now 40 and just had their first kid. The marriage has rarely been good, he's total AFC. I thought he should've divorced before the kid, but he didn't have the nads, "Well, my mom (he lives two blocks from where he grew up) and her are good friends and they go jogging" and the such.

Incredible. This guy asked me if he should have an affair. This was before the kid. I said, "No, don't have an affair, nut up and get a divorce." He didn't like that suggestion.

OK, this guy has GQ looks, women love this guy, great personality, good job, etc. But he can't breathe without checking on the beyotch. He frequently goes for walks at night to get away from her and that's when he calls me on his cell and talks about sports, women and so forth.

Couple months ago I go to Seattle -- I'm lucky if I get there twice a year -- and call him. No answer. Call him again, no answer. Call him once more, no answer. When I return home I don't hear from him for two weeks. His excuse? Says he was sick. First off, that's B.S., he never gets sick, he's in great shape. Secondly, too sick to pick up the phone? Thirdly, couldn't the beyotch call instead and say he's too sick?!

No, the beyotch told him he couldn't hang out with me that week, he had kid duty or whatever. She freaking has NO respect for him and never has had any. He let's her call the shots and she often lands on him in the presence of others. If she was out on the market as a single, she couldn't get anyone.

But this is the life he has chosen and it makes me puke. He envies me being single and free ... I tell him it's not always that great, but he disagrees. His life is miserable 24/7/365 because he's a married AFC.

Honestly? At times I have more respect for the homeless bum on the street. At least his life isn't dictated by some psycho beyotch.

One element to this is the notion that the last few generations of men have been brought up in a greater consentration by single mothers, absent fathers and negatively masculine/AFC fathers who themselves were brought up similarly.

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This is very true, and it's interesting to look at the patterns and changes throughout the generations. Many GenXers are resentful toward their fathers especially because they were out working their balls off and never had time for their children. Thus, the mother was left to basically raise them.

Then there's the situation where there is no father present, and the mother does all the raising. Guys in both situations seem to lack the masculinity they need to survive in the world of women and dating.

Now, we have the pattern passing itself down. You have a feminine man raising a boy. He might as well let the mother raise the boy. This tradition of AFC men is only going to continue as life goes on.

Desdinova said:

Then there's the situation where there is no father present, and the mother does all the raising. Guys in both situations seem to lack the masculinity they need to survive in the world of women and dating.

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Very true. I never met my father, or had any other male influences growing up.

It didn't affect me in my success in any area of life except for women and dating.

It was natural to act more feminine while in a relationship; I would be emotional, soft, clingy. I would be take charge and strong at work or in competition but be the ***** at home.

Took me a while of repeating patterns to realize that the root cause was not me meeting and dating the wrong women, but with my internal perceptions.

for finding sosuave before I was 66 like the guy in Rollo's post

I always look for deal breakers and to me there are deal breakers. Funny how a married friend of mine (who is a DJ) did not think this below story was a deal-breaker, but almost one ... or if she was a beyotch before, it was a deal-breaker:

* Friend from above story, my married AFC friend, was out with a group of 15 people at a brew pub in Seattle. This was BEFORE he was married to royal beyotch. They were living together. She marches in and in front of EVERYONE, b-tches him out, saying he should be home and shouldn't be out so late. A friend at that party told me and my married AFC friend that he couldn't believe it happened, how does married AFC put up with it, WHY does he put up with it, and that's a 100 percent deal breaker. My AFC friend just looked down and said, "Oh well, yeah, I don't know ... blah, blah, blah."

Why was it a deal-breaker? Because the actions she's showing you before you're married will only increase after you're married. I've yet to hear the line, "You know, my wife was a real b-tch when I married her, but since then she's really improved."

She better be great out of the gate or you're screwed. My friend is screwed because he chooses to be.

RT (and all), this thread has brought up some questions for me and I would really appreciate your various views.

Do you think some men adopt AFCism as a crutch, see it as ‘easy street’ and use it for a simpler walk through life?

I used to work with men like this, most had older or domineering wives, wives that ran the show, wives that were more 'motherly' then 'womanly', but these guys truly seemed to LOVE it.

They LOVED their lack of responsibility, they LOVED the lack of having to think or plan for their life or that of their family. They used phrases like, "if mother is happy, everyone is happy". (I think one of them even called his wife "mother", how creepy is that?) They seemed to have an inner peace by just being told what to do, by following and saying, “yes, dear.”

They’d sit amongst themselves and speak of their desire for a new car, cell phone or a blow job, yet in equal time they’d express that the “wife just won’t have it”. If I told one of them to "man-up" he'd see that as a threat to the so called peace they feel they had. It would upset the scale and put some power on his side and that was NOT desired and no car, phone or blow job was worth upsetting that scale.

They really felt they had it made in the shade. I guess they could have been acting but in all those years and as many of them as there were I just felt they were truly pleased with their position, or lack there of.

Can a man be genuinely happy rendering his power? Can a man become conditioned over the years to the comforts that AFCism can offer?

What do you feel is first, a powerful man, full of potential that life somehow transforms into an AFC – or - a man laden with AFC traits that he must overcome through some sort of rebirth?

Bad_Lil'Pixie said:

They’d sit amongst themselves and speak of their desire for a new car, cell phone or a blow job, yet in equal time they’d express that the “wife just won’t have it”. If I told one of them to "man-up" he'd see that as a threat to the so called peace they feel they had. It would upset the scale and put some power on his side and that was NOT desired and no car, phone or blow job was worth upsetting that scale.

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For one, reverse the roles and you have my gf and I.

Two, that sort of thing is mainstream and basically accepted as the way it's supposed to be, IMO. Fake happiness, I guess. I bet these guys are the uppity up's and the one's concerned about status and the like. There are many many factors that contribute to why a marriage happens. I see this situation work more in older couples that really think they have no other options and are just lonely. My gf's dad is that way, he patterns his life after his new wife, and the family suffers for it.

I'm a Christian, and I firmly believe the path of least resistance is a family structure with the "DJ" male and female roles.

Being "whipped" can be taken out of proportion. My future bro. in-law can seem whipped on the outside bc he bends over backwards for his wife and kid, but yet on the inside he is very much the man of the house who takes care of his family. His wife is high maintenance, but for example he is going on a bachelor's party this weekend and there were no questions asked (An AFC and a psycho b1tch would have argued for days).

The saying "It's hard to teach an old dog new tricks" applies in this situation.

I am of the opinion that one is never too old to learn, but you are talking about guys who are in their 40's, 50's, and 60's, and the fact of the matter is the older they get the less likely they are to change.

It's the same with me trying to help my parents with money. They are in their 50's and 60's, and it doesn't matter what I say to them they can't grasp the concept that they need to be doing something different in order to acheive a better result.

I would almost dare to say that a 66 yr old millionaire AFC is a lost cause. If you are a man who "has it all" (money, status, maturity) and you STILL let women boss you around, I doubt much is ever going to change.

This is a very good thread and extremely important to read.

Bad_Lil'Pixie said:

Can a man be genuinely happy rendering his power? Can a man become conditioned over the years to the comforts that AFCism can offer?

What do you feel is first, a powerful man, full of potential that life somehow transforms into an AFC – or - a man laden with AFC traits that he must overcome through some sort of rebirth?

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"These walls are kind of funny. First you hate 'em, then you get used to 'em. Enough time passes, gets so you depend on them. That's institutionalized. They send you here for life, that's exactly what they take. The part that counts, anyways." - Red [The Shawshank Redemption]

Young lady...that's your answer. Those men are institutionalized.

Once a guy is a married AFC, he's sunk. The wife sees him as that and all the de-programming into an Alpha Male won't change the wives' perception. Better to get a divorce and start over, or you'll always be a pussified AFC.

I find married AFCs to be totally pathetic. At least the single AFC has a serious and really good chance of reforming if he does the ground work.

Married AFCs are really just the walking dead. I cringe at the stuff I see in the big box and grocery stores. I often see good looking guy with fat, MEAN wifey, and screaming kids, getting yelled at.

Makes me want to move to the mountains, live in a cabin and never return to American society.

I've never understood why men put up with it ... though I think Pixie is on to something with her hypothesis.

My question is how these "mature" or married AFC's get the girl to marry them in the first place, because I usually got dumped within 2-3 months back in my chump-boy days (not exactly a long time ago). Maybe it's the money, but don't they all end up like millionaire in the end?

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written by speedo_meme

It's easy. These women weren't shyt to begin with. Face it, they married trash. She was like that before the marriage and she just showed him her worse side after the marriage. By that time it's cheaper to keep her.

What kills me is with marriage being 50/50 mugs are acting like they'll be the first person with a failed marriage.

Once a guy is a married AFC, he's sunk.

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Agreed 100%. If the AFC husband decides to take his life and his power back, she won't let him. She'll fight to death to keep the power she has over him. If you think she hates him as an AFC, she'll hate and resent him even more as an rAFC. The only options are to remain an AFC, or start fresh with a new woman.

One thing I don't understand and perhaps one can enlighten me here: What's the advantage of being a married AFC? I just don't get it. Real men with their nads intact I knew in college are now sniveling wimps at the beckon call of their wives. I've just never understood what their payoff is in these relationships, other then perhaps financial/real estate/double income.

Even the most pussified married AFCs act like I'm some loser because I'm still single. Then I remind them that I took some great vacation on my own, went to some great sports event ... and the killer, I e-mail them photos of beautiful women I've dated and they really start grinding.

Don't get me wrong, I'm all for marriage and my aging parents have a great one. I'm totally against married AFCs.

I really don't understand the dynamic, though Pixie shed some light on it. I still can't find the payoff, however. Someone enlighten me.

One thing I don't understand and perhaps one can enlighten me here: What's the advantage of being a married AFC?

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It's what society has defined as the "proper marriage" and people fall for it. The woman having the power and his balls has become a social norm, and is expected in all marriages.

I've got a friend who's wife asked for a house. He said "Yes dear, I'll give you anything you want!" He then turned to me and said, "See, I'm learning how to handle this marriage thing really well!" I wanted to puke. She fvcking walks all over him and spanks him when he's been a bad puppy. But, that's his idea of what marriage is all about. Again, he got it from what society has defined as the proper marriage.

WestCoaster,

Could we specualte that these guys stopped playing the game when they bagged the prize they sought after?

Is it because they "Get the Girl" they stop feel they have nothing to prove anymore?

Most people are unhappy. Very unhappy out here. I always believed in the expression that, " I can do bad by myself. I don't need any help to do that."
I refuse to lose. I don't want to refer to my Mrs. as "Ball and Chain".

Desdinova said:

It's what society has defined as the "proper marriage" and people fall for it. The woman having the power and his balls has become a social norm, and is expected in all marriages.

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Watch the TV show "King of Queens" to see how marriage should NOT be, but how society has proclaimed it to be. Men have only themselves to blame in this situation.

Wife (chick off Saved by the Bell): Logical thinker, always right, knows what to do in every situation, critical of the husband

Husband (fat dude): Always acts like a kid, always getting scolded by the mommified wife....etc

speedo_meme said:

Watch the TV show "King of Queens" to see how marriage should NOT be, but how society has proclaimed it to be. Men have only themselves to blame in this situation.

Wife (chick off Saved by the Bell): Logical thinker, always right, knows what to do in every situation, critical of the husband

Husband (fat dude): Always acts like a kid, always getting scolded by the mommified wife....etc

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Also add "Everybody Loves Raymond", "Friends", etc.

Incidentally the ONLY sitcom that I liked was "Joey". And guess what...it was taken out of television. My guess is that it was too masculine (he was always "playing" his women) for today's America.

Note: I was drafting a note to reply to your PM. But I decided not to do that. I want to keep my personal experiences as vague as possible. But I am more than happy to answer other questions in a public matter. Thanks!

Well I'm looking more for technique than anything, not necessarily details. I don't want to hijack the thread though...