unconditional love

How does one give Unconditional love yet provide discipline/consequences of actions.

This could relate to children or spouse/partner.

Say a person wants to do or does something that seems harmful. Eg. a spouse cheats on you or a child wants to throw away something important for what seems a bad reason such as peer pressure.

For children, perhaps one way is to give your feelings/views on the matter but then support whatever the decision the child makes even if you do not like it.

Unconditional love for a partner confuses me though as how can it be unconditional?

So what is unconditional love and is it 'good'?

It can't be unconditional really, according to the accepted precepts here, if they cheat on you, you dump them. So that's a condition. I don't think the concept is valid because it possibly can't be falsified as a theory (see Karl Popper validity of theories).

You could argue that when you dump her for cheating, you are doing the best thing for her, rather than creating an expectation of tolerance, so that's why you could claim to still be giving unconditional love.

The traditional approach to the drawing of the line and being unconditional is the cliche "You're not bad, but in this instance your behaviour has been bad." but it seems to me that others such as cognitive behaviour therapists claim that you are what you do. So, as a concept to me it seems unworkable.

Machiavelli always maintained that it was better to be feared than loved, since love is fickle but fear remains.

Personally I consider unconditional love as a form of worship, possibly to the extent of forsaking your own life for someone else. If you think about it for a bit, it has many similarities to a cult. I'd seriously question the motives, sincerity and general fortitude of anyone asking for unconditional love. Those people possibly have something up their sleeves.

Personally, I have been trying to focus my personal growth towards a more mature application of Tough Love vs any type of unconditional love. I believe unconditional love (w/r to relationships) is a concept which tracks right along with "soutmate" and other social conditioning myths.

Just consider a single example. Your woman decides she doesn't want to have s#x with you for some reason (other than a legitimate health concern). You can go ahead and practice all the unconditional love you want, allowing the situation to go on and on. In the end, you will become depressed, frustrated, angry and (of course Horny) and you will move on (if you are healthy).

You wouldn't leave because you were incapable of unconditional love. You would leave because you were mature enough to recognize that healthy reciprocation was missing. And in the end it is tough love you are practicing as you make a healthy logical choice on your own behalf. And remember (in this example) it was never your goal to punish, just remove yourself from a unhealthy situation.

Women = chidren

Love them but set Rules and boundaries. You don't let your children play with a gun or run out in traffic. You don't let your women disrespect you.

Unconditional Love is one you get from a Mother. Atleast I have experienced that.


Women - Love them but save them from mishaps and themselves

i used to think that unconditional love meant loving someone completly regardless of their flaws and accepting of their differences ,also respecting their individuality and differents in viewpoints...unless they are homosexuals, then it's okay to hate them and cast stones in their general direction.

But now, i don't know anymore..i question love all the time now, i simply do not know..i love my parents unconditionally but at the same time have strong ambivalent feelings towards them,that goes the same with almost EVERYONE i know...i tend to resent everyone i love,but i still accept them as they are- i judge and critisize but i still love them.I am very harsh, hard to please and hard to get along with..i have no idea what unconditional love is...but someone that can tolorate me and empathize with me-regardless of any of this, i would call that unconditional love...or insanity,either or :cheer:

Unconditional love... is simply that! Unconditional.

It might be easier to see it in the terms of where it will lead you.
If you were to truly engage that attitude/response to every moment and situation of life... then it would liberate your soul. You would realize the true nature of yourself (or lack therof, hehee), your (and all life's) core, truth, freedom, god... whatever you want to call it, it is beyond words.

Such an attitude would simply yield itself... your ultimate potential.

I think the thing that is missing here is that in such a primal and pure response from ones heart... seperation of self & other is not a factor. It is simply an unrealized illusion. Thus doing whats right for you and your SPIRIT, in every moment, would yield the same indirect response to everyone and everything in relation. Therefore you would never have to worry about responding in a way that is potentially detrimental.

Your life, and its actions would start to be originated from the clarity and purity of your heart's unconditional love.

Something to clarify would be... the difference between ego and self/spirit. There would be a 1001 things that sent your ego into pain/anger/jeolousy/greed/fear etc... but your only response and concern to any and all scenarios would be... am I continually going to open and expand my heart to this, or not?! The right answer would be a forever opening... expansion. Cause that would be the UNCONDITIONAL aspect in this response. Wheras your heart would be the valve(chakra) to such energy known as love/spirit.

So you would face a world of sh!t, that would test your ability to open your heart continuosly and still be able to give it.

Gf cheating.
Kids doing drugs.
etc etc etc.

But, like I originally said... such an attitude would bring you to the fullest development of what being a "man" is all about.
As you all know.

The only challenge being... how much can you meet the challenge!? Unconditionally...!?

-An easy way to understand your way through things in this manner, would be to see everyone as yourself. That should dictate the best plan of action/behaivor/response.

The extremes of my clarification were only to illuminate perspective. Hope it served this purpose, to any effect.

So what is unconditional love and is it 'good'?

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First of all, love can only be unconditional if love actually exists. There is no unconditional love when a spouse cheats on you, because love is a two way street.

Conditional love is when a person will only love you if you act a certain way or do certain things. A lot of conditional love is present in religion. If you don't belong to a person's specific faith, you're going to hell. However, once you believe the same things they do, you're loved.

People inflict conditional love by suppressing their emotions and refrain from showing how they truly feel. They figure that you're not entitled to know or see their positive feelings toward you until you live up to their expectations. It's basically a form of emotional blackmail.

In my opinion, discipline is the foundation of unconditional love.

A child for example, you love this child unconditionally, you want good things for it only. If this child begins to do something that would cause bad things to happen to it, your unconditional love will require discipline. You explain this discipline action to them, showing them it is for good and it is out of car for them that you do such things. A child truly wants two things from you. One is to know if they are loved and the second it to have their own way. The answers to BOTH of these are yes! YES, you are loved and YES you can have your own way AS LONG AS your own way is for the good.

The same goes for a lover. By showing them discipline or making them aware of your disappointment in their actions, you are communicating with them. Giving each other the silent treatment or NOT saying something because it may hurt their feelings is not offering the respect they are due. For example, I had an issue come up in my family. I thought it would hurt my husband to know about it, so I did not tell him. It came to light and the hurt wasn't the situation but instead it was ME (as a woman) protecting him. I didn’t show him trust or respect by keeping it from him. He was purely insulted that his woman tried to guard him. That damn “alpha male” ego struck again. But it was true. Communication between lovers is not always something easy to do, sometimes it is hard to hear, but if it is done for the GOOD and if it is done from a caring spirit, then it will only be constructive to the unity in the relationship.

Last thing, (analogy), You go to the store and purchase the MOST beautiful piece of Delmonico steak on the shelf, it is thick, perfectly marbled and just makes your mouth water thinking about it… You look at it and dream of the pleasure it will bring. You put it in the fridge and just look at it, you never take any action, you choose to not go through the pains of lighting the coal, tearing open the package, washing it, flavoring it, etc…you just look at it only.

What will happen to this fabulous piece of meat if you do not take action and offer it nothing but inactivity? It will rot, turn bad and you will have it no more.

Anything that you love unconditionally will take action and sometimes pains, but if the actions and pains are for the GOOD, only then will it bring you pleasure and love in return.

Desdinova said:

People inflict conditional love by suppressing their emotions and refrain from showing how they truly feel. They figure that you're not entitled to know or see their positive feelings toward you until you live up to their expectations. It's basically a form of emotional blackmail.

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This is kind of love that many of our AFC parents express toward their children. They may never break off relations with a child, but the quality of the relationship is determined by the parent's acceptance of the child's life choices. I can say without a doubt that my relationship with my (AFC) parents will grow increasingly distant as they see the choices I make, such as not getting married and having kids in my 20s, dating multiple women, and never embracing religion. I'm mentally prepared for this reality though. I think a lot of guys fighting to better themselves are horribly conflicted by the fact that living by their own code means an inevitable deterioration of relationships with people who are supposed to "unconditionally love" them. After all, family members, lifelong friends, etc are supposed to stick with you "no matter what," or so the fairy tale goes.

Most people have a very distorted, romanticized perception of love, whereby love is some mystical force that draws people together, outside of anyone's control. The euphoric love people feel in an attraction sense is bio-chemical and psychological in nature. The love people feel in a relationship sense is a psychological dependence on another person. People like to consider concepts like unconditional love as a way of describing relationships that are too valuable to terminate. For instance, most people only have one small set of relationships that are impossible to reproduce, and those are family relationships. Who else is truly familiar with your background and origins? Who is most responsible for shaping your perceptions of the world before you enter adulthood? This unique property of family relations places an extremely high value on them, meaning the conditions for terminating this "unconditional love" are very lenient.

Personally, I took huge steps forward mentally when I commited to the choice of not giving two sh1ts about how my family, peers, community, and childhood friends react to my life choices. I can see my parents in denial of the fact that I haven't adopted their beliefs, values, and bad habits yet. It won't be until some years pass that I get to see what the conditions of their love really are, but I'm fully prepared for a negative reaction.

As my experience relates to anyone reading this post, I hope more people pause to consider romanticized notions of unconditional love, and throw them out the window. It's when you don't give a DAMN about other people's conditions for loving you, "emotional blackmail" as Desdinova phrases it (well-said!), that you have the mental freedom to live life on your terms, with no hesitation or regrets.

double post

There is no such thing as unconditional love. Love, by it's definition, is always conditional and without these conditions it changes the definition. Love always comes with terms that qualify it as such. Marriage vows are terms for love and, ergo, conditional. You could make the argument that love between a parent and child is unconditional, but it's not hard to find parents that feel (or have grown to feel) no love for their children, therefore the (common) occurance of this places love into conditional circumstances.

Bear in mind that the opposite of Love is not Hate. The opposite of Love is Indifference. To Hate someone you would have to bear resentment or injury towards an individual(s) and therefore must apply your effort to their regard. Being Indifferent to the person implies a complete lack of concern for them.

And since I'm waxing philosophic here, there is also no such thing as true Altruism either. Rollo Tomassi, the AFC iconoclast,..heheh,..

Sinistar said:

I believe unconditional love (w/r to relationships) is a concept which tracks right along with "soutmate" and other social conditioning myths.

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I agree with Sinistar in this regard. Pets can have unconditional love for their owners. Parents can have unconditional love for their kids. But spouses, nope. Even if spouses have kids, they aren't "stuck" loving each other. Kid's are born of Parents, that connection will never change. Spouses grow together and evolve, their connection can change. I will not ever display any form of "unconditional love" to a spouse. Why? Giving unconditional love is like telling a woman: Forget to feed me, don't let me out when I have to use the bathroom, don't ever pet me, kick me, make me fight with other dogs, make me live in a tiny apartment where I can't run free, leave me sit in a hot car while you shop, whatever you want - I'll still love you.

Since people, unlike pets, have higher thinking ability, we can analyze situations and recognize disrespect, mistrust, and contempt. We can also recognize patterns. After recognizing patterns of unreciprocated love, we would feel differently.

Indeed, uncondtitional love is a popular Dr. Phil buzzword that is romanticized, like the concept of a soulmate, but is ultimately undesirable for the giver. I can say with certainty that unconditional love DOES exist and that it IS possible. However, the term "unconditional love" is a misnomer. More accurately, it should be called "one sided love", "love without regard to one's self", or "blind love" because giving this type of love without receiving the same level of love in return is unhealthy.

If you would give unconditional love to a woman, that would make you her pet or her kid, surely not her equal.

Besides, how can you quantify or grade "love"? Love is a concept. Love is an idea. Love is merely a name given to a feeling a person has. Love isn't something you can "do" or "give". Love itself is like a pegasus, fairy, or pot of gold at the end of a rainbow. It's like the word "energy". It's not a noun as in "I have a sack full of energy". No, it's a noun concept describing processes, actions, and/or theorhetical states - much like love. So, to say that one is giving unconditional love is like saying they are out riding their unicorn looking for some dragons to slay.

Some of you guys appear to be confusing an emotion (which love is) with a process.

If, for example, my brother went off his rocker and killed someone, I can very well see how I could turn him in and still love him. It's all down to the difference of how you feel about one's actions and how you feel about the person.

I also understand that people do not have nearly as much control over their tendencies than most of us would like to believe. People with psychotic violent tendencies (e.g., the kids who attack their parents with hammers as small children) have been found to have an understimulated portion of their brain, which was rehabilitated by playing a sort of video game that exercised that portion of the brain, curing them of all their violent tendencies. This sure casts new light on the parable: "they know not what they're doing."

There is no such thing as unconditional love.

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I have to disagree. Those who have owned a cat or dog have experienced unconditional love. You can step on the cat's tail, and it'll still love you. You can forget to feed the dog, and he'll still love you. Animals don't give a damn what religion you are, or what color your skin is. As long as you show them love, they'll show love back.


edit: I just noticed that Vulpine already brought out my thought, and did a very nice job of it

You're confusing love with affection. Affection is a behavior associated with love, but doesn't necessitate it. Actors are affectionate with each other on camera, but this isn't evidence of shared love. If you were indifferent towards your dog and failed to feed him consistently would he still love you? How do yo know your pet 'loves' you when you can just as easily conclude that it's merely grateful for your own attentions? Emotional attachments to our pets is hardly unconditional. If your dog mauled and killed your 5 y.o. son would you still love it? It's conditional on YOUR part.

Using our pets as the benchmarks for our definition of love is a bit shortsighted.

Desdinova said:

As long as you show them love, they'll show love back.

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Wouldn't this be a condition? Try abusing your dog, never feeding it, keeping it in a cage 24/7, and shunning it from your "pack," and it will not love you anymore. A ridculous example yes, but just trying to illustrate that even though pets have very lenient conditions for their love, they still have conditions. The same thing could be said of a parent/child relationship. It may take some extreme behaviors to break the conditions, since the bond is strong, but there still are conditions to love.

Ah-HAH!

So, unconditional love is impossible?!?!

Pets can't even do it.

If pets can't, how can people? It's just another womenese term that is an impossible expectation. Only a knight in shining armor riding a white unicorn is capable of having unconditional love.

I keep one in the garage, let's ask him how to do it.

Seriously, if there was ever a person who would be most able to achieve unconditional love it would be Hellen Keller. But even she had nerve cells, so if you punched her enough, she'd probably stop loving you.

Love necessitates conditions be met in order for the state to exist; it is therefore a conditional state.