Building Attraction vs. Cooperation - Is There a Difference?

Most people on this forum teach that building attraction is the best way to succeed with women. And so, like good little Don Juans in training, most go out and focus entirely on building the girl's attraction to you.

This is a good start. Attraction is obviously the first step toward any sort of tryst with a girl. Most do not see any incompleteness in the idea of just building attraction or rapport.

But I think there is an ingredient missing. How often do you see on this board a guy saying, "I am so confused, she was into me, she was attracted to me, but I'm getting the run-around on the phone, she doesn't call me back, she's always busy, or she's got other plans." Or "we went on a date and we had great rapport. But now she seems uninterested." They get royally confused when a girl who is attracted to them is "playing games" or doing "sh!t tests" or having bouts of "last minute resistance."

Many of us have lived this. We have all heard this lament.

I have a suggestion: building attraction isn't enough. If you focus only on building attraction, in some cases it won't work. You're missing an ingredient.

I would argue that focusing on building cooperation may equally if not more useful than focusing on building attraction.

First, what do I mean by cooperation. Cooperation means that we both work toward the same goal, whatever that might be. Let's say your goal is to make out with a girl. Building cooperation means persuading her to work with you to go make out.

The difference between a girl not cooperating and a girl cooperating is obvious. Have you ever heard the old trick question: "open my fist?" I use this old trick a lot when I'm training in communication skills.

I hand them my fist as the person pulls and pulls, trying to force your hand open. They usually fail miserably.

I then hand my fist to someone else and instruct them to just ask. They say "open your fist" and I open it immediately.

We can try and try to get something done, but it is much easier if the person is working with you for the same thing.

In the domain of women, imagine you are both cooperating with the goal of having sex. All you have to do is ask her to come home with you, and she will. Or she will ask YOU to go home with her. Point is, once she is cooperating, your work is done. You do it - or she does!

This may seem obvious and pedantic. If so, please bear with me.

For instance, aren't attraction and cooperation the same thing? I think the answer is no. Attraction is a *prerequisite* for cooperation. But just because a girl is attracted does not mean she's cooperating yet. It just means she'd like to cooperate - in the right conditions.

The brutal truth is that many guys believe a girl being attracted to you means she's working with you. And they're wrong.

So a fair question is, why do we have this confusion?

One problem is, for most guys attraction is the same as cooperation. If I feel attracted to a girl, I will facilitate us kicking it. For us guys it's that simple.

I feel attracted, therefore I would have to be a fool *not* to cooperate.

We assume this is always so for women, right? But we're wrong. Why?

For women, attraction just means she wants to facilitate you two hooking up under the right conditions. So if a girl is attracted to you, getting her to cooperate (and therefore success) means setting up the "right conditions." Fortunately for everyone, the conditions are very simple. But they are different for men and women. Like I said, for men, attraction suffices.

For women here are some conditions that might help with cooperation.
1.) Many women hesitate to facilitate sex because they believe most guys want to chase, but do not want to be chased. Some guys are turned off by a girl who comes on too hard. Some guys don't feel comfortable unless they're "dominating". Besides, it is always safer and more empowering in some sense to be chased than to chase. So the girl doesn't want to turn off the guy and it's safer and rewarding to be chased anyway.
2.) Sexual violence still pervades our society. Women are afraid of being raped for giving "the wrong signs" to guys they barely know. Fear does not motivate women to be too helpful.
3.) Clingy guys take cooperation the wrong way. Some women (not necessarily all women and not necessarily all conventionally beautiful women) have had a bad experience with clingy guys who took some facilitation from girl as an invitation to, say, propose marriage. So women hesitate to cooperate for fear of clinginess.
4.) Paramount reason: there is a stigma against women who like sex and work to facilitate sex. Many in society degrade them as sluts. Women want to be desireable to men, and can't find respect as a "slut." So many women are cautious about cooperating to have sex.

One final reason why women sometimes feel attracted but do not cooperate, but this one applies to both men and women. Example: if you put out a vibe of playing games, covering stuff up, pretending you're always happy, being judgmental, hesitant, dishonest, hiding your sexuality, trying to gratify your ego through another's need for you, many women will treat you the same way. They will pull back.

For contrast, if you are straight-forward, direct, honest, accepting, patient, non-judgmental, attentive, humble, mature, complimentary toward behavior you like, and openly sexual, women will reciprocate more often.

But you easily can do even more. In order:

1.) Invite women to hit on you, call you, suggest ideas, kiss you. Invite women to make seduction a 50-50 effort. Surprisingly often, they are happy to cooperate once requested.
2.) Show women sexual openness and satisfaction. Talk about sex openly and vulnerably. They will trust more and more that you are not a rapist and will feel safer cooperating.
3.) Learn to be emotionally secure and satisfied. The best way to prevent giving off a non-clingy vibe is to demonstrate mature emotional expression. In other words, talk about your emotions in an interesting and mature way. Talking about emotions maturely and interestingly is the best way to demonstrate that you are not clingy.
4.) As for the slut part, NEVER EVER EVER EVER EVER make a comment that degrades women wanting or having sex. Compliment the courage of women who do what they want sexually. Sprinkle this respect for sexual women liberally into conversation, at pretty much every juncture. It would be hard to express respect for sexual women too often.

Whatever else is going on, it does take courage in our society to be an openly sexual woman. Such women take a lot of harassment, and need to be very strong. But they are open about who they really are. In that, at least, they are an example to all of us.

If you tell women you respect and desire a sexually experienced woman (because they are the most knowledgable about pleasure and safety after all ), women will be much more likely to cooperate with you.

So in short, while building attraction is definitely necessary, some guys make a huge mistake in forgetting to build cooperation. And the best way I can think of to build cooperation, and I would love some more suggestions, is to dispel ideas that block women from cooperating with you. Again, once women are attracted by your charming personality, it only takes a bit of effort to build cooperation. Then you can go have all the recreational sex you both could desire, without prelude. Your work is done.

Thoughts?

Izza

U know i agree with your Building Attraction vs. Cooperation - Is There a Difference? i totally agree and becos this just happened to me recently. i built attraction in the girl but not cooperation and when i went in for the kiss. shee pulled back. so i agree with you.

Also called: Rapport

MisterMcGee said:

Also called: Rapport

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True MisterMcGee,true.

There's another name for this as well. It's called "The Mystery Method".
A.C.S.=Attraction,Comfort,Seduction. This "cooperation" Izza's talking about is what Mystery calls "compliance testing". If I hold out my hand to her assuming she'll take it and she does,this is called compliance,or what Izza calls cooperation. Sorry Izza. Your thread is right on,I mean the info is correct,you're just a few years too late with it though.

Mystery already beat you to the punch.

IGI, Mr McGee,

I hear what you're saying. The ideas I've outlined here may seem to be pretty similar to Mystery Method or rapport. Both are useful and important concepts. I also think there are a couple of important differences. I'm afraid you're viewing cooperation and compliance/rapport as the same. For me, they are not. Rapport means she trusts you and you have similar goals. Compliance means she will comply with what you want. But complying and actively working with you are different.

If a girl is complying, it means she is following. That is the normal model of picking up women here on this forum. People believe "there is no other way", the guy leads the girl follows. But there is another way. An easier way!

Imagine you're building a house. In one scenario you have a person who knows nothing about building houses but who is a helpful person and will do what you ask. So you have to give this person detailed instructions on every task that they do, every staple they put in the roof tiles, they will need you to guide them through every electrical wiring decision, every pipe placement, and every floor joist. This person is compliant with what you want, but requires a lot of instruction. This person trusts you, and you both want the same thing. But this person is not working independently toward the same goal.

Compare that with having an equal partner in building a house - two people who act as equals, who are both experts at building houses. You don't need to give this person any instructions at all, all you need to do is coordinate your activities. Imagine you take a lunchbreak from working on some floorboards. You get back and the floorboards are already done. Sometimes, you fill in for her.

Also, you save a lot of time because you don't need to tell her where to put every single nail in the roof. She works independent of you toward the same goal. So while she's plastering the walls, you don't need to instruct her, so you can true the doorjamb. You get more done, it's more efficient.

This person is compliant and trusting, yes. But think about the roots of cooperate - co means at the same time or together, operate is to work. To cooperate means you are working together at the same time toward the same goal. Cooperation begins with rapport and compliance but they are not the same.

Although the idea of trust and compliance are built into things like Mystery Method, I maintain that this model for picking up women is more tiring for the guy than it should be. You have to manage every detail of everything. Maybe some guys like that. Maybe you like that. Maybe some girls need that. But in general, picking up women is easier if they are actively, independently, working toward the same goal. And this is possible.

Some examples from this week: I was too busy to call this girl I just met this week, but she just called me to ask me out (I couldn't go). It was one less thing I had to think about because she did it for me. Also this week, I didn't have to number close a girl, I just asked her to contact me. She just emailed me yesterday and today. Last week, a girl came up with a good activity for us to do. I appreciated having one less thing to do.

I don't mind doing work, but I just set up the expectation, RIGHT AWAY, that I expect about 50-50 input. I expect not compliance, but cooperation. I don't have time to micro-manage every detail for lots of women. I need them to act, not sit and wait by the phone.

I'm still not claiming this idea of cooperation is necessarily new. And of course you can call cooperation a lot of things. Let's be humble about this: we have been mating for millions of years. I don't think Mystery invented anything at all. Neither have I. I present this as a mental tool that may be useful for some, though perhaps not for you in particular. And I also appreciate the feedback that, in its current form, this idea seems repetitive. I still think this idea is distinct and its differences are extremely important.

I would also argue that compliance is ok, but compliance is not great. Rapport is good, but rapport is not enough. Cooperation makes dating so very easy. So while I see guys trying to "fight her defenses", and calling her a million times to set up a date, I just have to ask if there's an easier way.

Moreover, the precise techniques I have named for removing blocks to cooperation, whatever you want to call it, are not in Mystery Method or the notion of rapport as most people here talk about it.

Still, I agree that trust and rapport are extremely important. They are key elements to getting the girl to work with you.

I'm glad this is helping bluemanson. I think most people with this experience will have an "aha" moment.

Izza

Igetit - I want to thank you for bringing up a really important point. I have been reading posts on this board for a couple of years now. A lot of guys want women to fill a void in their life, but also want to feel powerful with women. In other words, too many want compliance, not cooperation. They want to dominate, they want a woman who is submissive. But she also needs to constantly signal her openness to the guys moves, or else many guys here lose heart.

I think rapport is a huge deal. But I think many think of rapport as leading to compliance, not to cooperation. I don't want anyone here to underestimate how difficult of a mental shift this is. To be honest, I am still reeling. The notion of getting a girl to do half the work forces us to face our own powerlessness with women. We are all attractive, but we cannot control what she does or says. We feel vulnerable faced with a woman who can leave us, but also gratifying with a woman who can choose us. Asking her to cooperate gives her a chance to show that she chooses us. It also goes against millenia of habit. If you're stunned, she may be too. But that's ok.

It takes a lot of courage and calmness to focus on gaining cooperation from a girl. This is just a better way of doing things.

Guys shouldn't be carrying a medicine ball around. It feels so good to pass the burden around.

Izza

Bump

I think you point out some good things in your thread, especially the part about degrading a woman cause she is sexual.. a huge mistake guys try to play off as 'funny' but it's only result is her pulling back from you sexually.

However I disagree that cooperation doesn't come with attraction. Cooperation is based off attraction. If a woman is attracted to you in any way, she will cooperate with almost anything you do.

Attraction can be due to

1.Physical Features
2.Attitude
3.Social Standing
4.The Chase
5.Manliness
6.The whole package

and there are many more reasons why women are attracted to certain men..

The bottom line here is not to think about cooperation, but to think about not getting emotionally attached to women. You can have a successful relationship/fbuddy with a chick without even bringing up cooperation. She WILL cooperate with you if she's attracted to you. If you have other options open and you aren't insisting on seeing her all the time, her attraction will most likely hold for you and she will continue to cooperate.

When women stop cooperating is when they lose interest/feel smothered/feel like things are too easy. There's no reason for them to cooperate.

So yes, attraction has EVERYTHING to do with cooperation. Attraction breeds cooperation.

WC2 said:

I think you point out some good things in your thread, especially the part about degrading a woman cause she is sexual.. a huge mistake guys try to play off as 'funny' but it's only result is her pulling back from you sexually.

However I disagree that cooperation doesn't come with attraction. Cooperation is based off attraction. If a woman is attracted to you in any way, she will cooperate with almost anything you do.

Attraction can be due to

1.Physical Features
2.Attitude
3.Social Standing
4.The Chase
5.Manliness
6.The whole package

and there are many more reasons why women are attracted to certain men..

The bottom line here is not to think about cooperation, but to think about not getting emotionally attached to women. You can have a successful relationship/fbuddy with a chick without even bringing up cooperation. She WILL cooperate with you if she's attracted to you. If you have other options open and you aren't insisting on seeing her all the time, her attraction will most likely hold for you and she will continue to cooperate.

When women stop cooperating is when they lose interest/feel smothered/feel like things are too easy. There's no reason for them to cooperate.

So yes, attraction has EVERYTHING to do with cooperation. Attraction breeds cooperation.

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I agree, attraction breeds cooperation. Like I said, attraction is a prerequisite for cooperation. I also agree that your list of attractive attributes is pretty much the standard list for this board. Mine would be a bit different but that's irrelevant for now. In short, this question of attraction is very important. Like I said, there can be no cooperation without attraction.

I also agree that appearing above smothering her will help with attraction and cooperation.

On the surface, it may seem like we disagree but I'm not sure we do. I'm saying that attraction comes before cooperation, but they are not the same. And I'm arguing that a number of steps must be taken before attraction can be turned into her active participation. You're arguing that once she feels attracted, she will cooperate and actively contribute.

So on the surface, we disagree. But I think we are using the word cooperation in different ways. I believe you're using cooperation to describe both what I call compliance and what I call cooperation.

I agree that attraction in women can be the same stage as compliance, that is, a passive acceptance of what you do.

But I have met very, very few women for whom attraction was the same as cooperation, her actively working to pick you up.

Have you seen my metaphor of building a house above? If so, this illustrates the difference between cooperation and compliance for me.

In real terms, I think of compliance vs. cooperation this way. She is attracted to you, therefore she's compliant. You call her, she picks up, you ask her out, she says ok, you make a move, she kisses you back, you take her home, she follows and doesn't resist.

That is compliance. And I agree, attraction can equal compliance. She is attracted, you didn't come off as too needy, so she went along for the ride.

Compliance for me is not cooperation. Cooperation in the scenario above could mean she calls you, she asks you out, she picks the spot, she grabs your hand, she makes the move, she kisses you, she invites you over. When I say cooperation, I don't mean she does ALL of these things necessarily. But I do mean that she consistently does SOME of the work. She actively facilitates sex.

So if attraction is the same as cooperation, aka her active participation, would you please give me some examples you've lived, or seen, or even heard of? I'm looking for examples where a girl being attracted to you or some other guy caused her to participate actively in DIFFERENT stages of pickup. This is important, it has to be more than one stage. I say this because some women are ok with being aggressive in one stage, say calling all the time, but they will clam up in every other succeeding stage. If you read on this forum enough, you will see lots of cases where guys were superconfused by this. "She seemed so into me, she was calling all the time, now she seems so cold..." etc.

Perhaps our experiences are extremely different. But I have rarely, if ever, seen a girl who cooperated in multiple stages of picking up (say approaching, and kissing me first) without my going through the steps above. But yeah, please do share your divergent experience - I'm sure I will be the wiser!

Izza

PS Just this evening, I spoke with a girl I'm attracted to. I called her up and said, "Sorry for not calling in a while. Actually, you have my number, so you could have called me. But my apologies for my half." See how I set up an expectation of 50-50 contribution, right away? Not a coincidence.

By the way, expecting 50-50 participation may seem to be a manipulative trick, or some sort of technique. It's not. In fact, it works even better if I tell the girl exactly what I'm doing, and what I expect. This is just a desire and expectation on my part. I make that expectation clear, and so I find out whose chemistry fits mine. This expectation of cooperation is, in my opinion, just a replacement protocol, a different set of expectations than some ladies are used to. Most find it wonderful, they just need to know that I play the game differently.

Izza

The phrase "cooperate with almost anything you do" is what causes me to think you are referring to what I call compliance. Yes, if she's attracted she will go along. But being attracted does not mean she will call you AND suggest a date AND invite you home on the first date. It happens, but that is really a rare girl.

The point of this post is: that girl doesn't have to be rare!

Izza

Man I wanna see this added to the bible.

This is really, really good advice.

I just experienced the concept of rapport this week. Even though I failed and I actually lost most of the rapport I had developed, that was because I was very sloppy transitioning to the compliance part. I didn't put in enough effort and I didn't leave the girl a path to follow (or even find out if there was attraction to lead her.)

Rapport and compliance are completely different and you MUST push her to follow you by making a move.

I don't know what happens if your move fails, but I'm gonna try toning it down and...fvck it I'm gonna try to start a conversation and regain some of it. I'm gonna push the girl to talk to me again, in a friendly way though.

Thank you izza, this belongs in the bible.

Thank you so much for the compliment, I'm in the mood. Thanks for letting me know you found something that helped you.

If you think of any further ways to unblock cooperation, please share.

Best wishes,
Izza

What's interesting about this thread is that, to date, nobody has immediately grasped the difference between compliance and cooperation. Although that is certainly due in part to a lack of emphasis on my part, I think it also shows how tough this idea of cooperation is. It is not our cultural norm - compliance is. The idea of a cooperative woman - a woman of action, scares us. We feel more out of control - but we have never been in control. Relationships are always about mutual decisions - which means one person can opt-out at any time.

Izza

Izza, you write very well. You should consider taking it somewhere.

Hi Ripper,

Thanks so much for the feedback. I really appreciate the compliment. I love writing. I hope it will be part of the rest of my life, whatever I end up doing.

I just try to speak as well as I write... I don't know how well I write, but I sure do talk worse! Anyway, thanks again for the compliment!

Feel free to link to it, if you think other people would find it helpful.

Best wishes,
Izza

Using the house metaphor it seems to me that it really depends on the person having a similar personality to cooperate.


How do you make somebody cooperate? Could you give a few examples? Cheers

doesnt it come off as kinda wussy if you want her to take initiative too? Sometimes girls won't take initiative even if they're really into you, cause thats the guy's job. Then again, saying "the way i do things is we gotta both put something in to get something out" or whatever is pretty badass

Izza, this is pretty interesting idea. This is a great way to escalate things.

I smirked when you said, "Invite her to hit on you." I thought that was pure genius. There some great concepts in there bro. I definitely can see how easy it is for men to avoid cooperation and then solely build attractions.

I know I'm guilty.

I'm always up for theory. Interesting post. I enjoy reading and writing and it is obvious you do as well from this post and although it is enjoyable, I think you are attempting to rediscover the wheel here. Cooperation is not a seperate entity from attraction or rapport but rather a latent feature when the levels are high enough.

High Attraction = Cooperation (if only for a short period of time)
High Rapport = Cooperation
Low Attraction= No cooperation
Low Rapport = No Cooperation
Med Rapport & Med. Attraction = Cooperation

Cooperation begins with rapport and compliance but they are not the same.

Click to expand...

But later in this thread when responding to WC2, you concede it starts with attraction...

But in general, picking up women is easier if they are actively, independently, working toward the same goal. And this is possible.

Click to expand...

Yes...through enough attraction and/or rapport. High attraction is why celebrities and sportstars make out like bandits. High rapport is why so many people have internet relationships that they say lead 'straight to the bed' when unbeknownst to them, they actually have been building deeper and deeper rapport chatting online.

Some examples from this week: I was too busy to call this girl I just met this week, but she just called me to ask me out (I couldn't go). It was one less thing I had to think about because she did it for me. Also this week, I didn't have to number close a girl, I just asked her to contact me. She just emailed me yesterday and today. Last week, a girl came up with a good activity for us to do. I appreciated having one less thing to do.

Click to expand...

They are COOPERATING because you have enough rapport/attraction

I don't mind doing work, but I just set up the expectation, RIGHT AWAY, that I expect about 50-50 input. I expect not compliance, but cooperation. I don't have time to micro-manage every detail for lots of women. I need them to act, not sit and wait by the phone.

Click to expand...

This is setting the frame and her buying into it. Basic NLP stuff. It can be as long as having a deep conversation and then asking questions about her beliefs and going from there, or as simple as "Okay you aren't one of those girls who <insert character trait you don't want her to possess>" and watch her jump through the hoops like a circus animal.

I would also argue that compliance is ok, but compliance is not great. Rapport is good, but rapport is not enough. Cooperation makes dating so very easy. So while I see guys trying to "fight her defenses", and calling her a million times to set up a date, I just have to ask if there's an easier way.

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These guys calling a million times don't have enough rapport/attraction. Once again... I do not believe there is a 3rd wheel missing here. Check out this post http://www.sosuave.net/forum/showpost.php?p=251196&postcount=3 It illustrates someone who gets rapport quickly by thinking like the target and making a statement that flows with the target's state of mind. As a result they CO-OPERATE with him and give him free stuff.

Moreover, the precise techniques I have named for removing blocks to cooperation, whatever you want to call it, are not in Mystery Method or the notion of rapport as most people here talk about it.

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Most people who talk about rapport in detail talk about what you have said. Here is one example off the top of my head: http://www.sosuave.net/forum/showthread.php?s=&threadid=37719

And if by precise techniques you mean the following, I'll break em down

1.) Invite women to hit on you, call you, suggest ideas, kiss you. Invite women to make seduction a 50-50 effort. Surprisingly often, they are happy to cooperate once requested.
aka build attraction by being the prize
2.) Show women sexual openness and satisfaction. Talk about sex openly and vulnerably. They will trust more and more that you are not a rapist and will feel safer cooperating.
talk about sex openly aka build rapport on sex
3.) Learn to be emotionally secure and satisfied. The best way to prevent giving off a non-clingy vibe is to demonstrate mature emotional expression. In other words, talk about your emotions in an interesting and mature way. Talking about emotions maturely and interestingly is the best way to demonstrate that you are not clingy.
"talk about your emotions..."?Alex I'd like to solve the riddle. What is building rapport for $100.
4.) As for the slut part, NEVER EVER EVER EVER EVER make a comment that degrades women wanting or having sex. Compliment the courage of women who do what they want sexually. Sprinkle this respect for sexual women liberally into conversation, at pretty much every juncture. It would be hard to express respect for sexual women too often.
aka after creating sexual rapport, don't say something that isn't congruent with it

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To summarize, all of your 'techniques' on building cooperation are ways to build rapport or attraction. Ipso Facto, the more rapport or attraction the more she cooperates

izza said:

What's interesting about this thread is that, to date, nobody has immediately grasped the difference between compliance and cooperation. Although that is certainly due in part to a lack of emphasis on my part, I think it also shows how tough this idea of cooperation is. It is not our cultural norm - compliance is. The idea of a cooperative woman - a woman of action, scares us. We feel more out of control - but we have never been in control. Relationships are always about mutual decisions - which means one person can opt-out at any time.

Izza

Click to expand...

Compliance is a girl doing what you want out of obligation or because she feels she has to, and Cooperation (in this thread) means a girl who wants to work together with you.

I CANNOT stress this enough. Read this thread
Cultivate feelings of attraction & desire, not feelings of obligation

For all intents and purposes, this thread could also be called, "Cultivate cooperation and not feelings of compliance." It is one of the best posts on SoSuave and I know you will enjoy it. He follows a similar thought process as you (other than the whole reinventing the wheel part, lol)