Discerning a Woman's Motives

Popeye · Mar 28, 2008

Alright, I'll try to keep this brief. I'm a LS transplant. Wasn't getting so great advice over there.

Short history:

1) I'm divorced and have been for about 7 years. Wife left after three months with some idiot she started seeing before we were married. I had no idea until after we split she was even seeing someone else. We'd dated for two years and engaged for 8 months on top of that. Sex ceased after the wedding night.
2) I've had two serious relationships since, and both have been single mothers looking for nothing more than someone to pay the bills.
3) I make good money, finally learned to enjoy being single about a year ago, took back up some of my hobbies, etc., but I'd like to find (and may have found) a nice woman.
4) I have SEVERE trust issues, not only after my ex-wife, but after the last two serious relationships. Both pressured me to marry early on. Both told me they liked sex and being intimate.... Then.... one flat out told me, laying in bed one night, that sex wasn't important after marriage. I dumped her the next day. I am not going to tolerate a relationship without physical intimacy ever again.
5) Without bragging, I do have to say that I make a very nice salary, have a nice house with a pool, blah blah blah. Two degrees, and I stay in pretty damn good shape.

Now I'm dating a girl who seems to have her **** together. Pays her own bills, has two cars that are paid off, has her own house, is fairly intelligent, etc. She was cheated on, too, and may have trust issues as well, but at least I'm pretty sure she's not out for money.

We've had sex once, after about 10 dates, but not since (two weeks later). She's cancelled two dates, but we still talk every night. She took me to lunch today, and paid. We kiss and hug every time we're together, but I'm getting the feeling that she's lying when she says she enjoys sex. Grabbed my hand walking into the restaurant today. Sometimes she even steers the conversations towards that area. On the third date, I cooked her dinner and we watched a movie, and when we started kissing after the movie, she left abruptly, claiming that she didn't want to take things too far.

How do you know what the hell is going on? I know communication is probably the best and most efficient way to find out, but I'm not sure what to say. After she cut off the make-out session, I'm kind of feeling like she controls things too much and I keep waiting for her to initiate anything because I'm afraid she'll just run off again if I do.

Anyways, sorry for being so damned long winded. I'm about half-way through a bottle of the good stuff.

Magma · Mar 28, 2008

Let's start with the basics. Please change your username...

frivolousz21 · Mar 28, 2008

you seem to have some deep seeded issues that need to be taken care of.

KarmaSutra · Mar 28, 2008

I concur with brother Magma that changing your SS moniker is a good start. I'll explain why:

Your username is a digital representation of your thinking self. This is what you see and read whenever you come to SS so it would be best to make it something positive and one which you'll be proud of.

That said, I was in your shoes Brother. My ex wife fell and slipped on another c0ck when she took a trip to OK.

My divorce was the rock bottom I needed. I was the clingy, b!tchboy who cried and blathered about.

Not anymore.

Once I discovered SoSuave and put the effort into loving myself I've recreated every aspect of who I am. I'm the antithesis of my former whining idiot. My problem was I invested everything I had into her. My emotional state, my identity, my personality; everything was based on supplication to her. I was, in essence, brain dead.

With the help of these brothers I am a goddamned MAN. In every sense. My direction is based on what will get me to the next level of congruence. I'm always, ALWAYS on the search for growth.

You can do it just as I did.

Your issue is you're wanting. Wanting attention, wanting her affirmation, wanting her to tell you you're making the right decision.

Get shut of it, shut it out of your life. The first step to realizing your true nature is to take responsibility for every thought, word, and action you make.

Make yourself accountable to you. We can help you.

We WILL help you. You're taken your first steps to a new you just by coming here.

Welcome to SoSuave Brother.

Mistic · Mar 28, 2008

Magma said:
Let's start with the basics. Please change your username...

This was my first thought before I even read the post. Anyway bro, good move coming over here. You are sure to get some valuable incites.

It sounds to me like you are somehow not sexually satisfying these women. No offense. I cant think of the thread at the moment, but I posted something very valuable on this subject. If you are interested, I can look it up. Also, check out "The Master", or "Master Class" This guy has some genius techniques that will have women begging you for any attention your willing to give.

Warrior74 · Mar 28, 2008

Women like sex. But remember to women sex is a tool, to men its a goal. These women obviously see you as a good provider, not as a good lover. The bait you with sex to get you to provide.

What do you want? A long term relationship? A girlfriend? Several women for sex? A female friend? First define what it is you want exactly.

Right now I want a girlfriend with one girl on the side for sex. I'm going to the club to find my sex freak, and going to bookstores,coffee shops and church to find a girlfriend.

But ya. change that user name.

TooColdUlrick · Mar 29, 2008

indeed, change the name.

it seems obvious that you are attracting chicks that want you for financial and emotional security. you are a beta male.

while you are giving them the financial and emotional security, she will be fukking ME. btw, i have a PhD in Economics and i make a sh!tload of coin. you are smart and make good money. that's great, but it's also a curse because you have to filter out gold diggers. actually it's pretty easy, but you can work on that later.

UNDER NO CIRCUMSTANCES ARE YOU TO EVEN CONSIDER AN LTR FOR AT LEAST ONE YEAR.

first things first. ditch your current chick friend, like you did with the other one. she is becoming what the others became. just cut it clean, she's a waste of time.

i will revive an old-school SS idiom that might shock you if you are from LoveSchmuck:

GO OUT AND FUKK 10 CHICKS.

anyhow, anyway, just do it. shoot for the best you can, but...fat, ugly, or whatever, do it. the purpose of this is many fold, but mainly to put you in the right frame of mind regarding women.

read the Bible Material. the link is at the bottom of all pages. many of the posts/concepts are also in the Archives (a wealth of information). TooCold would suggest the following reading material...

Pook's material. he is an infrequent visitor these days, but his material is legendary and spot on.

The Secret of the Jerk.
http://www.sosuave.net/forum/showthread.php?t=17008

Kill That Desperation
http://www.sosuave.net/forum/showthread.php?t=16926

Be A Man
http://www.sosuave.net/forum/showthread.php?t=16903

all of Pooks "Anti-Dump Machine" posts. i think there's 8 parts. also read Anti-Dump's original post (i can't seem to find it). do a search for Pook and look for the threads that he originated. same with Anti-Dump.

you must KILL the beta male within you. but you can never completely kill it, it's still within all of us, and it's an on-going process. also remember a DJ is not a Player. a DJ is James Bond. a Player is an insecure loser who lives a miserable life. that is what the hags on LoveSchmuck do not understand.

report back and guys will be glad to help you out. be careful to not get addicted to this site. some guys here live on these boards, theorizing endlessly. get out there and do it. it is also easy to become a bitter woman hater. there are many guys on these boards that are like that (not so much on the Mature Man's though). just watch yourself and don't become one of those.

i am going to disappear for a few months, so good luck to you.

DavenJuan · Mar 29, 2008

welcome brother. i appreciate the openess with sharing your past with us.

change the name. KARMA explained exactly why.

i will personally follow your progression to see how this turns out.

it seems to me that the biggest issue is the affirmation that you seek from women in general. YOU are the prize. YOU are the great catch.

romangod · Mar 29, 2008

Ima_Whimp said:
How do you know what the hell is going on? I know communication is probably the best and most efficient way to find out, but I'm not sure what to say. After she cut off the make-out session, I'm kind of feeling like she controls things too much and I keep waiting for her to initiate anything because I'm afraid she'll just run off again if I do.

Anyways, sorry for being so damned long winded. I'm about half-way through a bottle of the good stuff.

Actually, a lack of communication with her is the best way to regain control of yourself and her. Fear of her running off is the least of your concerns. Be a little less available and emotional with her and see where it leads. If she's really interested she'll make it quite clear.

guru1000 · Mar 29, 2008

You obviously have had some bad experiences with women in your past.

I do not know enough about you to give HONEST FEEDBACK. It would seem to me, that some women view you as their PIGGYBANK rather than their SEXUAL BEAST. It seems you are fed up being Mr. Money Bags and want women to truly DESIRE you for being a MAN. Yet your name and everything you have described is quite the opposite of how a MAN behaves.

Yes, this CAN all change.

Society conditioning and molding has plugged many into what we call the MATRIX. Alot of men these days do now know how to be MEN. You have certainly come to the right place for this education.

Now with this girl you are seeing. You have put too much of an EMOTIONAL INVESTMENT in her already. Ask yourself, do you think she would ask advice of how to handle you? Probably not!

This shows three things.

1) She OWNS the frame
2) She has control
3) She is of higher value

That is THREE too many.

Cardinal Rule: The one with the most power in the relationship is the one who needs the other the least. This is certainly not you.

Pull back your emotional investment with this one. This is only a quick fix.

Your underlying issue is INSIDE. This is what requires diligent work.

Keep reading and educating! The big brothers from above are here to help.

Mr. Me · Mar 29, 2008

How do you know what the hell is going on?

By observing her actions. A woman who gives mixed signals has low interest. If it walks like a duck... after 10 dates, she ought to be acting like she's crazy about you, but this one isn't.

Part of the reason why is probably because you've been too available to her: "but we still talk every night". That's way too much exposure! What the heck do you talk about? Anything and everything... which could mean that you've probably also blabbed about your exes and your hurts and vulnerabilities and negatives and who knows what else you're saying in those convos that, unbeknownst to you on the other end of the line, she's taking notes, gathering ammo and getting turned off here and there.

Talking on the phone every night also sends the signal that you don't have anything else to do in your life. Even though the women is taking your calls and seems agreeable to them, it still sends that message.

That message registers on a unconscious level.

I know communication is probably the best and most efficient way to find out

That's not quite true. If a woman wishes to deceive you or tell you "white lies", you'll never get the truth by communicating with her, will you?

because I'm afraid she'll just run off again if I do.

You have to get yourself into a mental state where 1. You don't care if they'll run off as a result of you doing what a man's naturally supposed to do (as long as you're not being an immature jerk about it), and 2. You don't want to hook up with women like that.

On the third date, I cooked her dinner and we watched a movie

That kind of activity, in the early dating stages, more often lowers interest than raises it. She left abruptly instead of wanting to make mad passionate love with the man of her dreams. Tells you something right there. DON'T buy into the excuses: "I don't want to take things too far!" "Let's take it slow" "I was hurt in my previous relationship!" "My daddy didn't buy me cookies."

That girl was out right then and there, so no wonder it turns to even more crap happening like when she started canceling dates on you.

They RARELY actually open their mouths and just say "Nope."

But it's obvious that you started losing her initial interest early on; she obviously lost interest sometime *before* she "abruptly left". It's also inferred that you seem to attract women because of your financial status. They see a nice house, you seem to have money on your mind, several of your relationships were Users taking your money. You probably have to reinvent your dating ideas.

I dumped her the next day. I am not going to tolerate a ...

That is the aspect of you that you need to develop. You will have more boundaries beyond the physical. You need to learn how to weed out Users and you need to develop a mind set of abundance, that there are more women in this world, not any one of them is that special so as to warrant ANY abuse. Too many guys chase after one woman who gives them a headache.

Read the DJ Bible - link's at the page bottom - read the Book of Pook is kinda cool. Anti-Dump's posts are great too.

What to do with this woman. I'd drop her. You are probably just somebody to ease her loneliness and give her some attention. You'll need to learn how to read them better.

reset · Mar 29, 2008

Danger said:
It also seems to me that you need to strengthen your frame. Your world is STRONG. Nobody can shake it's foundations. Women, work, life, they all throw **** at you and you stand unfazed. That is your new reality. .... Women love STRENGTH. Not necessarily physical, but mental and emotional strength as well.

Colossus · Mar 30, 2008

Ima_Whimp said:
Alright, I'll try to keep this brief. I'm a LS transplant. Wasn't getting so great advice over there.

Short history:

1) I'm divorced and have been for about 7 years. Wife left after three months with some idiot she started seeing before we were married. I had no idea until after we split she was even seeing someone else. We'd dated for two years and engaged for 8 months on top of that. Sex ceased after the wedding night.
2) I've had two serious relationships since, and both have been single mothers looking for nothing more than someone to pay the bills.
3) I make good money, finally learned to enjoy being single about a year ago, took back up some of my hobbies, etc., but I'd like to find (and may have found) a nice woman.
4) I have SEVERE trust issues, not only after my ex-wife, but after the last two serious relationships. Both pressured me to marry early on. Both told me they liked sex and being intimate.... Then.... one flat out told me, laying in bed one night, that sex wasn't important after marriage. I dumped her the next day. I am not going to tolerate a relationship without physical intimacy ever again.
5) Without bragging, I do have to say that I make a very nice salary, have a nice house with a pool, blah blah blah. Two degrees, and I stay in pretty damn good shape....

...After she cut off the make-out session, I'm kind of feeling like she controls things too much and I keep waiting for her to initiate anything because I'm afraid she'll just run off again if I do.

Reread the bold sentence. She OWNS the frame, because you are afraid.

First of all, some part of you believes you are a wimp, and it manifests itself in your behavior. Change your screen name. Maybe to "The_Wimp_is_Dead".

Secondly, it sounds to me like this woman is displaying some early signs of sex issues. 10 dates?? Unless you waited that long to make a move, 10 dates is a little long waiting for some sexuality to happen. Just my opinion, but if i am not sexual with a woman after 3-4 dates, i generally move on. She should want to have sex with you.

There is a LOT of wisdom here about why it is not in your best interest to date single mothers, but you may have figured out much of that on your own. You came to the right place. SS is about tough love, and that may be just what you need.

There is no reason for you to take what you can get. You are the man, you do the choosing. It's your life. Check out this thread for some foundation material: http://www.sosuave.net/forum/showthread.php?t=139830 ( yes, i self-referenced.)

Rollo Tomassi · Mar 31, 2008

The medium IS the message.

I hate the term 'Mixed Messages'. More often than not there's nothing 'Mixed' being communicated and rather it's a failure to read what a woman is communicating. The average guy tends to 'get' exactly what a woman has implied with her words, but it takes practice to read her behavior and then more practice in self-control to apply it to his own. When a girl goes from hot to cold and back again, THIS IS the message - she's got buyers regret, you're not her first priority, she's deliberating between you and what she perceives is a better prospect, you were better looking when she was drunk, etc. - the message isn't the 'what ifs', the message IS her own hesitation and how her behavior manifests it. 10 dates before sex? This IS the message. Canceling dates? This IS the message.

I cooked her dinner and we watched a movie, and when we started kissing after the movie, she left abruptly, claiming that she didn't want to take things too far.

This IS the message.

Women with high IL wont confuse you. When a woman wants to fukk she'll find a way to fukk. If she's fluctuating between being into you and then not, put her away for a while and spin other plates. If she sorts it out for herself and pursues you, then you are still playing in your frame and you maintain the value of your attention to her. It's when you patiently while away your time wondering what the magic formula is that'll bring her around that you lean over into her frame. You need her more than she needs you and she will dictate the terms of her attention.

What most guys think are 'mixed messages' or confusing behavior coming from a woman is simply due to their inability (for whatever reason) to make an accurate interpretation of why she's behaving in such a manner. Usually this boils down to a guy getting so wrapped up in a girl (i.e. ONEitis) that he'd rather make concessions for this behavior than see it for what it really is. In other words, it's far easier to call it 'mixed messages' or fall back on the old chestnut of how fickle and random women are, when in fact it's simply a rationale to keep themselves on the hook, so to speak, because they lack any real, viable, options with other women in their lives. A woman that has a high IL in a guy has no need (and less motivation) to engage in behaviors that would compromise her status with him. Women of all ILs will sh!t test, and men will pass or fail accordingly, but a test is more easily recognizable.

decades · Mar 31, 2008

DJ Bible for starters

azanon · Mar 31, 2008

Another outstanding post RT. (Not to change the subject, but you have a talent for that RT. I think you really do know enough to make a book. Put in the work and make it happen. Who knows, the payoffs could be huge).

Ima_Whimp, face facts. I can't improve on anything RT said. Heed and take the appropriate action (or non-action, whichever the case may be).

Popeye · Apr 1, 2008

Thanks for all the responses. I'm still reading through them and just ended my last day at LS.... what a load of drivel.

I will say that I'd like her to be more wanting of sex, but if I can't get her into bed to begin with, how can I show her that I know what I'm doing? I will say I'm not exactly unfullfilling in the sack. I've had plenty of compliments in that department in the past. It's getting there that's the issue... anyways, have yet to read the DJB, so that's where I'm headed... and to figure out how to change my user name... do I need a new account?

penkitten · Apr 1, 2008

pm a mod to see if they can step you through a name change.
welcome to the forum , we are glad you are here.

ketostix · Apr 1, 2008

Rollo Tomassi said:
The medium IS the message.

I hate the term 'Mixed Messages'. More often than not there's nothing 'Mixed' being communicated and rather it's a failure to read what a woman is communicating. The average guy tends to 'get' exactly what a woman has implied with her words, but it takes practice to read her behavior and then more practice in self-control to apply it to his own. When a girl goes from hot to cold and back again, THIS IS the message - she's got buyers regret, you're not her first priority, she's deliberating between you and what she perceives is a better prospect, you were better looking when she was drunk, etc. - the message isn't the 'what ifs', the message IS her own hesitation and how her behavior manifests it. 10 dates before sex? This IS the message. Canceling dates? This IS the message.

This IS the message.

Women with high IL wont confuse you. When a woman wants to fukk she'll find a way to fukk. If she's fluctuating between being into you and then not, put her away for a while and spin other plates. If she sorts it out for herself and pursues you, then you are still playing in your frame and you maintain the value of your attention to her. It's when you patiently while away your time wondering what the magic formula is that'll bring her around that you lean over into her frame. You need her more than she needs you and she will dictate the terms of her attention.

What most guys think are 'mixed messages' or confusing behavior coming from a woman is simply due to their inability (for whatever reason) to make an accurate interpretation of why she's behaving in such a manner. Usually this boils down to a guy getting so wrapped up in a girl (i.e. ONEitis) that he'd rather make concessions for this behavior than see it for what it really is. In other words, it's far easier to call it 'mixed messages' or fall back on the old chestnut of how fickle and random women are, when in fact it's simply a rationale to keep themselves on the hook, so to speak, because they lack any real, viable, options with other women in their lives. A woman that has a high IL in a guy has no need (and less motivation) to engage in behaviors that would compromise her status with him. Women of all ILs will sh!t test, and men will pass or fail accordingly, but a test is more easily recognizable.

This needs to be read over and over again by anyone asking the question, "What does she mean?"

Ima_wimp, the most basic and simple answer is you are being too nice and too accomodating to these women. You are allowing them to push their agenda on you and you're not pushing your agenda on them. This is both lowering their interest (and also not weeding out the bad one) and not getting you what you want.

Popeye · Apr 1, 2008

ketostix said:
This needs to be read over and over again by anyone asking the question, "What does she mean?"

Ima_wimp, the most basic and simple answer is you are being too nice and too accomodating to these women. You are allowing them to push their agenda on you and you're not pushing your agenda on them. This is both lowering their interest (and also not weeding out the bad one) and not getting you what you want.

Alright, so, being the typical male I am, I "skimmed" the DJ bible and did pick up a few things.

It seems like the most concrete or applicable advice I picked up was cut down on the communications. That's easy. Done. (Not breaking up with her, she's still new and I might as well test some of this stuff with her)....

Beyond that, things get a little fuzzy.

1) I'm implementing a plan of no more dates with the daughter. That ****'s gotta go. 8 out of 11 dates have included the daughter. That ****'s done until I see significant improvement. If that kills the deal, so be it.

2) Don't answer the phone every time she calls.

Beyond that, I'm still at a loss as to how to get her into the physical side of things. She's physical in public, holding hands etc., but that's already old. Maybe it's too late for this chick and she's not physically interested, in which case I will end up dumping her anyways, as I have before. Only this time it will be faster. Unless there's some implementable steps I can take to test HER.

Discerning a Woman's Motives

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