A Man Must Become

Don't remember if i saw it on here or in a link someone posted, but there was a quote that went something like "A man must become, a woman simply is".

Penkitten didn't agree with this statement in another thread.

I pulled a few more quotes from the link that someone posted awhile back. The original quote might have even been from there....can't remember, but here's the link http://www.theabsolute.net/minefield/woman.pdf
Here are some more quotes that kind of allude to the same thing.

"It is only rarely that one can see in a little boy the promise of a man, but
one can almost always see in a little girl the threat of a woman"

"Why is it we never hear of a self-made woman"

"Woman submits to her fate; man makes his"

"Girls we love for what they are: Young men for what they promise to
be"

"A woman's a woman until the day she dies but a man's only a man as
long as he can"

"Not only is it harder to be a man, it is also harder to become one."

It would seem to me that a man must "find himself" in order to truly be a man. A woman, however, generally finds her "self" in the man she attaches herself to.

Agree or disagree?

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"It is only rarely that one can see in a little boy the promise of a man, but
one can almost always see in a little girl the threat of a woman"




I've heard THAT one before.

And I believe it. I've got a little boy (well, he's not 'little' anymore) and a little girl.

True, that.

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I'll go along with the other quotes, too.
They "sound right."

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i swear i can not find the thread for nothing. but i think joekerr is the one that said a man must become and a woman simply is and i disagreed and said a woman had to become too.

swifTy said:

i think a woman has to become aswell. for sex sake no not really she just has to be hot but for gf/marriage then yes.

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to become a good woman and ladylike and mother? yes i agree

I think Penkitten is right in a sense but in another way this thread is also right Str8up.

In life a man HAS to become or he will get nowhere and NOTHING.

A woman doesn't have to become a real woman like Penkitten or LovelyLady are.

If you are a woman in America or Canada you can just go through life and find some man and use him for his money or whatever you want and society will pretty much kiss your ass and say you are right to do so. You don't have to become anything more than what society expects you to be in this case.

To do this is to become the common and unfortunate type of woman that becomes this automatically as she grows older through socialization and society being set up for her and encouraging her to do this and she being common sees it as easy and goes along with it because of that.

But to become a real woman as Penkitten is...

Which is to say being lady like, a good mother, non manipulative, non user, kind and genuinely caring.

Well its admirable in American or Canadian society for a woman to choose to become this type of woman.

In other words she has to work at it like every man has to work at becoming a real man.

The main difference is women have a choice on what they want to be one or the other.

They will be regarded well by society no matter which type of woman they choose to be.

Men will be looked down on though if they don't become MEN and remain boys, AFC's, whatever.

We have no choice.

We must become or be shunned and mocked and perhaps this is a good thing to motivate us but it'd be nice if it worked for both the sexes but hey this is not a fair world.

@KontrollerX - excellent post! Right on the mark!

The original quote is by Ester Vilar btw.

kontroller that was great.

i think another point to this thread is how men become men.
it seems like some of the newer generation is having a hard time "becoming".
perhaps it is the lack of men role models these days, or just how society is now, or that parents just are not teaching their sons how to become a man.

can anyone give any advice to the younger generation that needs direction?

I am with Penkitten on this...

One is not born a woman, one becomes one. Simone DeBeauvoir

"It is one thing to be female - quite another to be a WOMAN" My Grandma (she was always right )

Encourage your sons to learn how to mentor themselves, to Father themselves.To understand courage and independence.
To build the courage to go in their and "jump into the water."


Understand one's emotions.
Realize your identity, your preferences, and recognize your own self worth.

NOT "identifying"with the media's portrayal of what they want you to be.

ALL that though, ironically, is tied to a sellf concept of observing oneself in DOING, and EXPERENCING.

Take away the self observation and no SELFConcept emerges.

IN other words, have young men do things that develp their masculine traits of leadership, conflict resolution, decsion making, etc...

Well there's no question to me, and I don't see how anyone else could question, that a man must become but woman do not. I think it's ridiculous to say that a woman has to "become" to even be ladylike and a mother too when what obstacles is in her way from doing this? Women have the choice mostly to be whatever and however they want to be and society supports that. For a man it's just the opposite, no matter what he tries to do, whether to be the classicalmasculine man or an AFC he's still faces opposition.

About the only time a woman has to become just like man has to, is when she's dog ugly. Then she has to have an effective personality and maybe even actually have accomplishm,ents like an advanced education, but even then it's still easy for a woman on a relative basis.

A MAN must become, a woman simply is.

If "NO" was not a word , we would all be the same.

I would get a team of 100 order takers , rather than salesman on the phone.

What does this have to do with the topic GURU?

A MAN must become because of the word "NO". Without it, there would be no rejection. Not a person alive would need to become.

"Mr.Trump, give me 10 Million." "OK."

"NO" is what seperates the MEN from the boys.

"NO" is what defines a MAN's tolerance and threshhold.

"NO" is what makes or breaks a MAN.

"NO" is what CAN truly make us GREAT.

"NO" is what makes us MEN.

The LAW OF AVERAGES state that if you ask enough people of what you want, you will surely get.

A MAN must become because we get the pick of the litter. A women only gets what she is offered.

With the above choice, I choose to be a MAN.

SUCCESS IS IN ACTION, NOT RESULTS.

There were 2 lines , one of SUCCESSFUL MEN and one of MEN OF SELF PITY.
"Mr. Director, I have interviewed all the MEN on both lines extensively. There are no differences in intellect, character or upbringing. They are all the same except in one area. The SUCCESSFUL MEN on average have heard the word "NO" 150 times more than the MEN OF SELF PITY."

Self improvement, personal growth, enhancing one's sexual value and attractiveness - these concepts apply to both men and women. However, a primary point of distinction is in how they apply to men and women.

If we're talking reproductive value, a woman has a much shorter time horizon with which to maximize her sexual value to attract the best partner she can. This is only one facet of her life though. A sexy 40-something woman who's intelligent, classy, and cultured might make for a great partner if having children is already out of the equation.

Men essentially have most of their adult lifetime to increase both their reproductive value and improve in other parts of their life.

I agree with what Kontroller is suggesting, that men are held to a much higher standard by society than women when it comes to self-improvement. It would be interesting to know whether that's because society is ran by men bending to the whims of womankind, or because men are naturally expected to lead the effort as they are generally the emotionally and physically stronger sex. The answer is probably somewhere in between. . .

if a man does not become self-reliant in life he will have no life - or it will be a lonely, miserable, sufferable life (most of the time anyway).

a woman on the other than hand, if she so chooses, can bypass creating her own life and simply marry into a males already successful life. once she gets a man to marry her and have kids, she forever will benefit from any of his successes.

which doesnt assume that divorce is inevitable. most of these women are very good at keep their marriages going. heck, even when their husbands cheat on them they will pretend like they don't know it's happening because they don't want to lose the life they got by marrying the man they did.

its getting harder for women to be satisfied with this life though. in the old days the block was filled with women living this life, so they'd spend all day shooting the sh*t and probably engaging in lesbian activity and then would have dinner ready for 6pm.

but today most of the women are working. so staying at home is pretty boring for a lot of women now.

anyway, all of us should be focused on becoming better peopel and overcoming whatever demons we have from the past. both men and women.

but it still does hold, men don't have the option of marrying some woman who will take care of them for life. its just not an option for 99.9999% of men out there.

as a result they have no choice but to make something of themselves in life.

the men who don't are the ones in jail.

a woman who does nothing with her life ends up married and a homemaker.

a man who does nothing with his life likely ends up in prison, dead or in a trailerpark.

penkitten said:

i swear i can not find the thread for nothing. but i think joekerr is the one that said a man must become and a woman simply is and i disagreed and said a woman had to become too.

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No, that was me Pen.

My take is that in today's society where life is relatively easy (as in physically easy) most women don't have to go through the trials and tribulations that women did in the past. It's just find the best man you can find, marry him, buy a house and raise a family.

It's similar with men, and I believe that it has been mentioned that men no longer must go through rites of passage and such to "become" men, but overall the pressure is still there to "perform".

In other words, faced with no clear transition into adulthood, confusing messages sent by our feminized society, AND the expectation to STILL be a wise and effective protector and provider, the strain in greater on men that it is on women.

I mean, life experiences will cause persons of both sexes to "grow up", but a woman can make it through life without any kind of self discovery or self improvement, simply because there will always be a man out there who is willing to play Captain Save-a-Ho. Her sexuality is a card that she always has up her sleeve, and she can play it at anytime. Granted, it is probably in her best interest to develop herself as a person, as any well rounded man isn't going to accept a woman who only brings to the table physical beauty and the prospect of sexual intimacy.

How many men have an ace up their sleeve? None. We are forced to constantly improve ourselves in order to provide for ourselves AND to attract a suitable mate.

I'm not slamming women here. I just thought it was an interesting observation that would make a good discussion. I realize that some women do indeed go above and beyond what is necessary to ensure their survival. But they are few and far between. And why expend energy in the pursuit of something that can and usually is provided FOR you?

joekerr31 said:

as a result they have no choice but to make something of themselves in life.

the men who don't are the ones in jail.

a man who does nothing with his life likely ends up in prison, dead or in a trailerpark.[/B]

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I suppose Ivan Boeski, Michael Milken, Skilling, Ken Lay, Dennis Kozlowski and Morty Davis and the Woman Martha Stewart never made anything of themselves or their lives because they ended up in prison.

Don't be naive.

I was going to say, how many homeless men are there compared to women?

These men chose not to evolve into men. Many have mental illnesses that prevented them from becoming men, but the effect is still the same.

And yes, I agree that a woman worthy of marriage must "become". That's a big part of the reason why they are so hard to find. I don't want a woman who wants to go out and kill the world, but at the same time I don't want one who is entirely submissive. that would get old fast. You need to find a woman who has enough self awareness that it isn't a constant power struggle OR a situation where she has no identity outside of YOU. The ideal would be a woman who has developed herself enough to stand on her own, yet at the end of the day knows that a happy, healthy relationship is dependent upon her assuming a feminine role and allowing her man to assume his masculine role.

thats exactly it str8up.
women are taught as little girls to do one of two things: 1. grow up and get married and let a man take care of you OR 2. be independent and stand on your own because you don't need no man to take care of you.
most of us are not taught that there is anything in between.

both of these teachings do not make her become the woman she is meant to be. they make her dependent to the first available guy that will take her, to the next if it doesn't work out OR to be manipulative and use her sexuality to get ahead.

when you meet a woman and you think of forming a ltr with her, i want you to decide which one she is and ask yourself if you can live with her being just that. what if she never matures and becomes the woman in between?
two fears will come into your head...1. will the first type of girl be able to survive in a disaster situation whereas her husband might become bed stricken ill , unemployed, or dead? 2. will the second sort of girl ever let you wear the pants?

you must strive to find a woman that is in between, one who has had to become who she is.

STR8UP said:

No, that was me Pen.

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sorry, i knew i read it somewhere in a thread.

penkitten said:

thats exactly it str8up.
women are taught as little girls to do one of two things: 1. grow up and get married and let a man take care of you OR 2. be independent and stand on your own because you don't need no man to take care of you.
most of us are not taught that there is anything in between.

both of these teachings do not make her become the woman she is meant to be. they make her dependent to the first available guy that will take her, to the next if it doesn't work out OR to be manipulative and use her sexuality to get ahead.

when you meet a woman and you think of forming a ltr with her, i want you to decide which one she is and ask yourself if you can live with her being just that. what if she never matures and becomes the woman in between?
two fears will come into your head...1. will the first type of girl be able to survive in a disaster situation whereas her husband might become bed stricken ill , unemployed, or dead? 2. will the second sort of girl ever let you wear the pants?

you must strive to find a woman that is in between, one who has had to become who she is.

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penny, you are such a strong positive influence on this board, sweetie.

I find it frustrating when I can't give you rep points for each post you make! LOL!



I'm glad you're my mommy.


Um..mommy I go poop now...
change my undies?

:rock:


LOL!

Interceptor said:

penny, you are such a strong positive influence on this board, sweetie.

I find it frustrating when I can't give you rep points for each post you make! LOL!

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interceptor i think you are also such a strong positive influence and i also get frustrated when i go to give you rep points, and it won't let me because i have not spread enough around or something.
i try to spread those points around to everyone when i find it worthy, but you know how that gets.