The official Borderline Personality Disorder thread [Merged]

Sinistar · Jan 6, 2009

I think Paradox's (temporary) closing of the 'marrying a BPD' thread brings to light the fact that these Cluster-B threads can become long and tedious (more so to members who have been here longer and having seen many). For example, there are more than enough facts, observations, etc in that last couple of larger threads that in theory we could just refer future Cluster 'B' candidates (or should I say victims) to those threads. However, I am not recommending that - just pointing out that the information is now out there.

What I really wanted to address is the concern I have towards feeding Cluster 'B's so much attention by proxy/postmortem. In other words, they are no longer around but look at the sheer amount of MM topic discussion time they are receiving (from both victims and recoverees). In a way, our own repeated posting of details and encounters (even under the flag of saving the victims) is actually preventing us from moving on and ultimately becoming indifferent towards them.

Obviously, a STR or LTR with a Cluster 'B' can leave deep scars. But when do we stop talking about it and move on. When do we stop feeding it energy?

I am quite certain I was wrapped around the axle of a HPD. But she was never diagnosed, would never imagine it possible and would hide it all costs if she were diagnosed.

This brings up another point. Just how many of the posters here have professional diagnosis to back up their theories versus just believing she was a Cluster 'B'? As I read back through the threads, there is not a 100% professional diagnosis rate. And we won't expect 100% diagnosis due to their very disorder. I am sure everyone who has knowledge of a professional diagnosis will chime in to 'prove it'. That's great - but it does not address those who are not sure. Shouldn't those who are unsure at least be man enough to acknowledge that fact up direct and up front.

Now to that 2nd point. How often is the failed STR/LTR really a combination of a guy who is extremely AFC/insecure and the women tries repeatedly to end it in her way (indirect). The AFC doesn't get it and it blows up on him. He finally comes here in search of an answer and being able to diagnose her Cluster 'B' makes him feel better, it wasn't his fault, etc.

The goal of this thread is to discuss just how much energy we should really give to Cluster 'B' diagnosis and AFC recovery. From what I've seen and experienced, this thread could easily turn into "here's what happened to me..." or a "we need to save our boys at all costs..." novel. But I would ask both experienced and newly aware Cluster 'B' believers to comment on the following:

Just how much energy should we (victims) really give to the Cluster 'B' topics after they are long gone? If we continue to recite Cluster 'B' experiences as examples are we not still stuck on them? Wouldn't it perhaps be better to make the lost soul finding this place aware of the Cluster 'B' but then focus on the man's programming and belief systems that did not make him eject when the mirror broke and the reflection was no longer there.

Perhaps an example. A guy comes here after pretty much being broken. He recounts mega bouts of drama anger, push pull, etc. He says in the beginning she was perfect, then one day snapped. He finds out later that she was seeing other guys, two ex's and who know what else. Seeing what he's posted we rush in to tell him he was the victim of a BPD/HPD. That makes him feel better. He starts recounting more things. Board members post more in response to that. In the end we've probably spent 90% (or more) of our efforts diagnosing her and helping the guy justify why he experienced what he did.

But maybe we're missing something. We know that 2 or 3 of every 100 women will have many of the Cluster 'B' symptoms. We know that they feed on the naive, mega-AFC who's most likely prone to lengthy bouts of no intimacy and quite prone to major one-itis. The Cluster 'B' will endlessly feed (date/friendships) with these AFC's because they're easy targets and feed their hunger. So it's no big surprise that your extreme AFC examples who date just once or twice in their lives will bump into these women. To me the big surprise is just how extremely AFC men will allow themselves to be. And maybe these long discussions of specific Cluster 'B' encounters is shielding us from the previous sentence.

Personally, in the end I found the best way to recover from (a undiagnosed) HPD encounter was to feed the topic as little energy as possible and focus on why I didn't see it. Or more simply, I came to the realization that I am the MAN and whether she's a Ginger(HPD) or a Marry-Ann I need to take responsibility for the outcome. I can blame the woman all day long. In the end, that's just who they are and will not change. It's me that needs to take this new found awareness, stop feeding the negative and move forward with my life. There's nothing wrong with recognizing a Cluster 'B'. There's even less wrong with feeding her zero energy afterwards.

KontrollerX · Jan 6, 2009

"these Cluster-B threads can become long and tedious"

Then such members need to exercise a little self control and just ignore those threads and don't click on them and read them. There are plenty of garbage threads I'm not interested in that I don't complain about or demand be locked.

"we could just refer future Cluster 'B' candidates (or should I say victims) to those threads."

Yeah we could recommend posters go read one of the big previous threads but that recommendation is followed just about as much as the "go read the DJ Bible" recommendation is followed which is to say pretty much not at all. People want answers almost always from live participants ready to answer their specific questions. Something that can't easily be done wading through a mile long thread.

"What I really wanted to address is the concern I have towards feeding Cluster 'B's so much attention by proxy/postmortem. In other words, they are no longer around but look at the sheer amount of MM topic discussion time they are receiving (from both victims and recoverees). In a way, our own repeated posting of details and encounters (even under the flag of saving the victims) is actually preventing us from moving on and ultimately becoming indifferent towards them."

Saying this is like saying John Walsh becoming the head of America's Most Wanted is preventing him from moving on from his son Adam's death. Now certainly what you said may be true about some members who can't let go and wish to talk about this issue for that reason but what you said certainly doesn't apply to all former victims. There are those of us who really do want to educate the public about this and never stop because it is a good cause, no one else is doing it and it makes the victimization not in vain. Its like victims of war such as Ron Kovic protesting war for the rest of his life or other types of protesters who spend a great deal of their life protesting for good causes. Doesn't mean they spend all of it on this or John Walsh is completely consumed with AMW but its just a part of their life now and they will continue the fight to prevent more victims from being made of war and crime. I feel the same way. I will do the same thing to prevent more people from becoming victims of these predators since it is necessary as the media is doing nothing to warn people against this nor is anyone else except victims of these people. I do understand what you are getting at but I don't think you have considered that people are in different stages and places when it comes to this issue. Some posters here are at the stage where what you said absolutely applies and some such as myself and a few others have decided that part of how we make peace with this issue is to spread awareness and help when and where we can to prevent more victims from being made and current victims to get out of the relationship and not risk further destruction.

"Obviously, a STR or LTR with a Cluster 'B' can leave deep scars. But when do we stop talking about it and move on. When do we stop feeding it energy?"

Its different for everyone. Your healing time could take two months and someone elses could take two years. Humans are different at recovery matters of the mind.

"This brings up another point. Just how many of the posters here have professional diagnosis to back up their theories versus just believing she was a Cluster 'B'? As I read back through the threads, there is not a 100% professional diagnosis rate."

You should be made aware that there is no standardized test for professionals to give one of these people to determine what they are. They observe the patient and get input from friends and family and love interests and then make their diagnosis and quite often many professionals fvck up when it comes to diagnosing these people meaning they often just slap a depression diagnosis on them and send them on their way until the patient repeatedly comes back due to life difficulties having to do with whats really going on with them that is causing them so much trouble as well others.

"Now to that 2nd point. How often is the failed STR/LTR really a combination of a guy who is extremely AFC/insecure and the women tries repeatedly to end it in her way (indirect). The AFC doesn't get it and it blows up on him. He finally comes here in search of an answer and being able to diagnose her Cluster 'B' makes him feel better, it wasn't his fault, etc."

I'd like to see you or any poster that puts forth this type of shaming wounded ego scenario actually link to one such topic where you think this has actually occured. Before jophil, myself, PE and the other well known people who educate about this condition make any suggestion at all we ask the poster a ton of questions and really grill them to rule just this sort of thing out. I seriously doubt this has happened on the board as the young guys that come here who clearly haven't been in one of these relationships simply make posts about how some girl's behavior interests them and they wonder could she be one of these.

"Just how much energy should we (victims) really give to the Cluster 'B' topics after they are long gone?."

The energy expended is PTSD obsession. Part of getting through that is endlessly going over it in your mind and talking it through with a therapist or people who will listen. Doing so on a board such as this is much healthier in my opinion than talking your family or friend's ear off about it constantly. Rather share with anonymous strangers who may also be going through the same thing and everyone is helped and eventually victims get through the obsession and become bored with it and leave or talk about other things the poster MTN being one such example.

Unfortunately there are millions of these predators out there so this HPD/BPD/AW issue will never be over. There will always be new victims arriving at this forum to find out what the hell happened to them and they need someone to let them know that they are not alone and it was not their fault. There have been massive threads made about these people ever since this site was founded. Its an issue like AIDS. It is not going away and because it is not going away posters that are knowledgeable about it are essential. The help that we give literally saves lives I have no doubt whatsoever about that.

"Personally, in the end I found the best way to recover from (a undiagnosed) HPD encounter was to feed the topic as little energy as possible and focus on why I didn't see it. Or more simply, I came to the realization that I am the MAN and whether she's a Ginger(HPD) or a Marry-Ann I need to take responsibility for the outcome. I can blame the woman all day long. In the end, that's just who they are and will not change. It's me that needs to take this new found awareness, stop feeding the negative and move forward with my life. There's nothing wrong with recognizing a Cluster 'B'. There's even less wrong with feeding her zero energy afterwards."

Personally, in the end I found the best way to recover from an HPD/BPD encounter was to not blame myself or the girl but rather the sicknesses of us both as identifying a problem which would be blaming someone is not the same as solving a problem which is getting to the underlying cause of said problem.

See how healing for each person is different?

horaholic · Jan 6, 2009

Personally, in the end I found the best way to recover from an HPD/BPD encounter was to not blame myself or the girl but rather the sicknesses of us both as identifying a problem which would be blaming someone is not the same as solving a problem which is getting to the underlying cause of said problem.

Thats the way I try see it. I end up blaming both of us equally, which probably isnt healthy, cuz I would rather forgive her, and myself. For the first couple years, I honestly felt like I had been raped, due to the extremes of the lying, cheating, and prostitution, that I wouldnt allow myself to see.

She was like a drug. When things were going good, it was like an intense, and amazing high, that nothing has ever compared to, before, or since. It was UNREAL. I felt the downside was worth it. The way we lusted after each other was almost superhuman. That alone, is something that is next to impossible to walk away from. Then...add the darkside, the splitting, blaming, cheating, lying, completely nonsensical rationalization, which then makes the good parts seem even better, which in turn makes the bad side seem to disappear. Then, one day, every horrible truth you turned a blind eye to for the whole relationship suddenly takes over your whole mind, and you live in a waking nightmare. Its as if you sold your soul to the devil for the ultimate dream girl, and now he comes to collect. And people tell you to 'get over it.' GFOTW. I have, and it didnt work.

I got on meds for a while. I actually got on them before I broke up with her (as she couldnt handle my negativity, and she had a point, to an extent). When the meds kicked in, is when I realized that I deserved better from my SO, so the next time she disrespected me, I let her go. Then, I had an attempt on my life from some guy who was also under her spell, and was insanely jealous. She would fvck him, while telling him how much she loved and worshipped me, and it drove him over the edge, cuz he wanted be be me.
Anyway, I cant afford the meds anymore, even though I think I need them.

Sinistar · Jan 6, 2009

KontrollerX said:
Then such members need to exercise a little self control and just ignore those threads and don't click on them and read them. There are plenty of garbage threads I'm not interested in that I don't complain about or demand be locked.

You raise one of the points I probably did a bad job of making - it would seem that the victims and recovering victims are not able to do this by looking at the sheer size of the threads and the more recent action of Paradox (closing the thread due to his feeling it has gone overboard). I know he re-opened the thread but doesn't mean he wasn't onto something that has been unsaid.

KontrollerX said:
Saying this is like saying John Walsh becoming the head of America's Most Wanted is preventing him from moving on from his son Adam's death. Now certainly what you said may be true about some members who can't let go and wish to talk about this issue for that reason but what you said certainly doesn't apply to all former victims. There are those of us who really do want to educate the public about this and never stop because it is a good cause, no one else is doing it and it makes the victimization not in vain. Its like victims of war such as Ron Kovic protesting war for the rest of his life or other types of protesters who spend a great deal of their life protesting for good causes. Doesn't mean they spend all of it on this or John Walsh is completely consumed with AMW but its just a part of their life now and they will continue the fight to prevent more victims from being made of war and crime. I feel the same way. I will do the same thing to prevent more people from becoming victims of these predators since it is necessary as the media is doing nothing to warn people against this nor is anyone else except victims of these people. I do understand what you are getting at but I don't think you have considered that people are in different stages and places when it comes to this issue. Some posters here are at the stage where what you said absolutely applies and some such as myself and a few others have decided that part of how we make peace with this issue is to spread awareness and help when and where we can to prevent more victims from being made and current victims to get out of the relationship and not risk further destruction.

I understand your point. But a question comes to mind. For you specifically, do you feel healed and done with your past Cluster 'B' experience as you can be?

KontrollerX said:
You should be made aware that there is no standardized test for professionals to give one of these people to determine what they are. They observe the patient and get input from friends and family and love interests and then make their diagnosis and quite often many professionals fvck up when it comes to diagnosing these people meaning they often just slap a depression diagnosis on them and send them on their way until the patient repeatedly comes back due to life difficulties having to do with whats really going on with them that is causing them so much trouble as well others.

I definitely understand this. However, it still does not make you or me or any of the other posters any more qualified than them especially given the fact we only ever get one POV - the guy's. I think this ties into another point you made further down...

KontrollerX said:
I'd like to see you or any poster that puts forth this type of shaming wounded ego scenario actually link to one such topic where you think this has actually occured....

I think you lost me right here. Somewhere going back a year or two, the topic of feminists and feminine agenda correctly pointed out shaming as a tactic. But lately, I've seen several posts where posters accuse other posters of trying to shame them. Stop it, wrong words and tactic. You know the point I am trying to make. There is no way to be absolutely certain even you, Jophil or any others (or even a shrink as you stated earlier) that the woman was Cluster 'B'. I do agree, that you guys do ask questions and learn as much as you can. At the same time I'm having trouble recollecting post after post where people bringing up Cluster 'B' only to have that diagnosis refuted.

KontrollerX said:
The energy expended is PTSD obsession. Part of getting through that is endlessly going over it in your mind and talking it through with a therapist or people who will listen. Doing so on a board such as this is much healthier in my opinion than talking your family or friend's ear off about it constantly. Rather share with anonymous strangers who may also be going through the same thing and everyone is helped and eventually victims get through the obsession and become bored with it and leave or talk about other things the poster MTN being one such example.

I guess I don't agree with the first part. By condoning (the underlined part), there would be no end to grief. At some point, everyone has to accept what has happened and for a certain percentage of the population they will never come out of it. The last part I agree with, sounding out things to an anonymous group can be beneficial in many ways not to mention cheaper and possible more direct.

KontrollerX said:
Unfortunately there are millions of these predators out there so this HPD/BPD/AW issue will never be over. There will always be new victims arriving at this forum to find out what the hell happened to them and they need someone to let them know that they are not alone and it was not their fault. There have been massive threads made about these people ever since this site was founded. Its an issue like AIDS. It is not going away and because it is not going away posters that are knowledgeable about it are essential. The help that we give literally saves lives I have no doubt whatsoever about that.

...this is probably where we differ. I know you see them as predators and any of us who have (or may soon or may have) met them as victims. Maybe this helps at first, but I honestly believe this shifts the focus from why we allowed ourselves to be victims to the fact we were victims. Hearing we are a victim makes us feel better. Maybe it even heals us. But at some point we are aware of the facts. We are no longer victims. At that point endless analysis always seem to hurt more than help.

I think I came out of that experience and the experience of this board and realized one thing. Women are women. They are indirect and insecure (yes, even the Cluster 'B's). They play by their own set of rules. Our mistake is trying to get them to play by ours. Cluster 'B's magnify this difference but the red flags (drama, fighting, confusion) are still the same. Yet when it's a Cluster 'B' the chump is a victim instead of a AFC with one-itis. As I've grown older and more aware I believe this is not always in the best interest of the next guy we're about to unplug.

Sinistar · Jan 6, 2009

horaholic said:
Thats the way I try see it. I end up blaming both of us equally, which probably isnt healthy, cuz I would rather forgive her, and myself. For the first couple years, I honestly felt like I had been raped, due to the extremes of the lying, cheating, and prostitution, that I wouldnt allow myself to see.

She was like a drug. When things were going good, it was like an intense, and amazing high, that nothing has ever compared to, before, or since. It was UNREAL. I felt the downside was worth it. The way we lusted after each other was almost superhuman. That alone, is something that is next to impossible to walk away from. Then...add the darkside, the splitting, blaming, cheating, lying, completely nonsensical rationalization, which then makes the good parts seem even better, which in turn makes the bad side seem to disappear. Then, one day, every horrible truth you turned a blind eye to for the whole relationship suddenly takes over your whole mind, and you live in a waking nightmare. Its as if you sold your soul to the devil for the ultimate dream girl, and now he comes to collect. And people tell you to 'get over it.' GFOTW. I have, and it didnt work.

I got on meds for a while. I actually got on them before I broke up with her (as she couldnt handle my negativity, and she had a point, to an extent). When the meds kicked in, is when I realized that I deserved better from my SO, so the next time she disrespected me, I let her go. Then, I had an attempt on my life from some guy who was also under her spell, and was insanely jealous. She would fvck him, while telling him how much she loved and worshipped me, and it drove him over the edge, cuz he wanted be be me.
Anyway, I cant afford the meds anymore, even though I think I need them.

...perhaps you'll take this wrong way but I think your response in a way proves my point already. From what I read, your relationship has been over for a couple years. Yet look at the detail you went into now several years later. I wouldn't wish a Cluster 'B' on my worst enemy. I actually feel bummed every time I read a post like yours. Sh!t like this is just isn't fair.

But when do you finally chuck the 'victim' hat, say fvck it and let it go and move on? Can you ever block it from your mind, get busy and on with life and never feed it any more energy? Or do you think it was so stressfull and brutal that you will never overcome it?

horaholic · Jan 6, 2009

I take absolute responsibility for being a oneitis AFC in my situation. I put up with it, and no matter how hard I try, I cant seem to forgive myself. At the same time, however, the spells these girls cast, can bring the best DJ's to their knees. I know better now. The rare occasions where I pick up the phone when mine calls, I take control, dont believe shyt, and dont let her push me around. The one exception to this, is when she convinced me she had a brain tumor, and had less than a month to live. Even then, it took several conversations to convince me she was telling the truth. I didnt buy it at first, and I told her I thought she was full of shyt, but damn, shes an amazing liar!

EDIT. No, I dont take it the wrong way. You are right. I need to chuck the victim hat. Every morning I wake up, I have to force thoughts of her out of my head. I TRY. I want nothing more than to move on. It was only a few days ago, when I read the other threads, that I realized what this is, and venting about it, has been a relief, and has moved me forward. I can either bottle it up, or let it out. This last year, I have made leaps and bounds as far as this goes. I have healed significantly. There is still a lot of bitterness, I would like to shed still, though.

KontrollerX · Jan 6, 2009

"You raise one of the points I probably did a bad job of making - it would seem that the victims and recovering victims are not able to do this"

Well this is not exactly a fair assumption to make as there are victims that indeed need to vent and go over the scenario but you are lumping the recovered victims or rather survivors in with them in their need to discuss the issue when that is simply not the case. Rather the survivors make posts most often responding to questions from the new victims. You see a bunch of posts from the usual suspects and then make a knee jerk reaction post. Understandable but it shows a lack of attention to detail that is sadly all too common on this forum.

"I understand your point. But a question comes to mind. For you specifically, do you feel healed and done with your past Cluster 'B' experience as you can be?"

I am in the survivor stage mindset which is the last stage of the healing process to my knowledge so that makes me about as done with the pain of it as I can possibly be. I still have some bouts of anger and depression that pop up from time to time but it was explained to me by a therapist that this is the result of the literal change to my brain from the trauma being so severe and overwhelming which often happens to PTSD sufferers. It may or may not completely dissapear over time.

"I definitely understand this. However, it still does not make you or me or any of the other posters any more qualified than them especially given the fact we only ever get one POV - the guy's. I think this ties into another point you made further down..."

You'd be surprised at how little the average run of the mill mental health professional actually knows about these people. Many refuse to believe the conditions exist, many refuse to even treat such people do to the inherent difficulty and it has outright been admitted to me by a mental health professional that they are woefully undertrained when it comes to these people as a whole so sorry if I can't put anymore stock into a so called pros knowledge of these people than say a jophil or persistent exaction.

" I'm having trouble recollecting post after post where people bringing up Cluster 'B' only to have that diagnosis refuted."

I thought we may of been imagining things as well due to our own victimizations but then persistent exaction told me something I found to be brilliant one day and it was basically this...

"Kontroller most of the guys that come here are likely not a reasonable sample of the general male societal population, guys who come to a site like this obviously have various problems with women and otherwise so its no surprise that we see so many clear and obvious cases of Cluster B on this forum."

So trust me I have considered the fairness and accuracy of our suggesting Cluster B and PE's PM to me basically made perfect sense that this board for guy's with problems is an obvious hot spot for such problems to be posted.

Also something you and I may not of considered until this moment is some of these posts may indeed just be people having fun and trolling and seeing if they can make up a story that sounds cluster b enough for one of us to make the suggestion. As stupid as I think such an action would be I don't mind any of us knowledgeable people replying to such a post as a lurker out there who may actually need the information we give will then get it even if the topic was a troll joke.

And to address your other point if you really want me to trudge through my post history and find you posts where I and others didn't make the Cluster B diagnosis just let me know as even though you personally can't recall such an event happening I can and maybe it is your focus that is a bit too much on this issue and making you see things that aren't really there.

"I guess I don't agree with the first part. By condoning (the underlined part), there would be no end to grief. At some point, everyone has to accept what has happened and for a certain percentage of the population they will never come out of it. The last part I agree with, sounding out things to an anonymous group can be beneficial in many ways not to mention cheaper and possible more direct."

You can disagree with it all you like but I'll have you know a professional...remember one of those people whose opinions you hold over ours? Well that professional and author of the PTSD recovery book titled "I can't get over it" said directly that talking it over and over is part of the recovery process for PTSD trauma. Not Grief. Trauma. There is a difference. Trauma must be processed through by talking it out as much as one needs.

"this is probably where we differ. I know you see them as predators and any of us who have (or may soon or may have) met them as victims. Maybe this helps at first, but I honestly believe this shifts the focus from why we allowed ourselves to be victims to the fact we were victims. Hearing we are a victim makes us feel better. Maybe it even heals us. But at some point we are aware of the facts. We are no longer victims. At that point endless analysis always seem to hurt more than help."

I can see your point here but avoidance of accepting my role in the destructive dance is not my intent when I post that they are predators. Rather my saying they are predators is for the benefit of other posters to let them know by that specific word that the pretty girl in front of them is extremely dangerous despite her looks and demeanor. Its a word I use to help wake poor saps up to the monster that lies beneath the veneer of makeup and physical beauty.

Edit: One last thing I want to say in this post is that even though the idea I posed for people who dislike these threads to simply exercise self control and not read them was a good idea I do realize many people can make such posts at once and subsequently clutter up the board probably far too much which is why I proposed in another topic that the mods should simply unlock Knight Cross's thread and make that the single and official Cluster B topic where all discussion about that goes from now on and the mods could move any new HPD/BPD topics to that thread keeping the rest of the forum free of that subject.

squirrels · Jan 6, 2009

Sinistar, you are right-on.

It's shocking to see the number of guys who keep giving themselves grief over "BPD" women.

It happens sometimes. I dated a girl for the longest time who played that push-pull crap with me...I dunno if she was BPD, but she was definitely F'd up in the head. I always kept her at arms' length, fortunately, despite her continually trying to guilt-trip me into a commitment. I stuck around thinking to myself, "she'd be awesome IF she would just get over these self esteem issues". She never did.

But I kept letting her hang around because we always had fun. I didn't realize that the "fun" was just her setting up yet another power-play on me. Eventually, the only way I could avoid falling into the psychological pit she was preparing for me was to become the monster she accused me of being.

The biggest mistake I made is NOT WALKING AWAY WHEN I SHOULD HAVE.

Here's the long and short of it. If you have a "BPD" woman or some other kind of manipulative psycho woman, dump her. Dump her now. Cut contact. Period. End of story.

Don't worry if you did the right thing, the wrong thing, etc...your first mistake was getting involved with her and not seeing the warning signs. Everything afterward is a mistake by default...it's not your fault.

Grab your balls and stop playing the victim. As Aunt Jackie, God rest her soul, used to say, "Sooner or later, you're going to have to decide whether you're a VICTIM of circumstance or a SURVIVOR".

Do you want sympathy for the rest of your life because you had a bad girlfriend for a while? Or do you want to find a GOOD one??

Yes, SoSuavers, there ARE good women out there. Not ALL American women are unmanageable BPD b!tches.

Next time, be more careful what company you keep. That's all.

slaog · Jan 6, 2009

Sinistar raises some good points. Once you know the reason you felt terrible its time to move on. No point blaming anybody. People are what they are. I'm sure those women don't mean to be the way they are it's just the fvcked up thoughts they have going on in their heads. The are unhappy people.

They are very negative people and will drag people down with this negativety. As Sinistar said, thinking about it all the time is only giving it more energy.

Don't blame past relationships for anything. They were a mirror of yourself. You attract people into your life and if they are bad for you then there is a reason for that.

Maybe if people take responsibility for their past relationships if will give them a sense of relief knowing that they have more control then they think they do.

The more we understand the matrix we're in the more we develop ourselves and as that happens more and more, people will then realise that meeting these women was where there were at, at the time and it was just a bump on the road to where they are going. As we develop ourselves our standards will raise and we will automatically know that these women are bad news because they don't live up to our new high standards.

In fact it could be a great thing it happened. Sometimes we need to reach a low to really want to change our lives. Maybe these bad experiances lead many men on the right pathway to a better life.

Call it a valuable learning experiance.

squirrels said:
Don't worry if you did the right thing, the wrong thing, etc...your first mistake was getting involved with her and not seeing the warning signs. Everything afterward is a mistake by default...it's not your fault.

Grab your balls and stop playing the victim. As Aunt Jackie, God rest her soul, used to say, "Sooner or later, you're going to have to decide whether you're a VICTIM of circumstance or a SURVIVOR".

Do you want sympathy for the rest of your life because you had a bad girlfriend for a while? Or do you want to find a GOOD one??

Yes, SoSuavers, there ARE good women out there. Not ALL American women are unmanageable BPD b!tches.

Next time, be more careful what company you keep. That's all.

Knight's Cross · Jan 6, 2009

Sinistar,
You raise some good points. Jophil and I had this very discussion in person. That continuously rehashing the cluster B discussion was counter-productive. That all newbies that posted wanting answers should be directed to the already existing archived posts, or told to PM those individuals that had dealt with the problem first hand.
I totally agree that to continue discussing it gets us all in sort of a negative feedback loop.

KC

jophil28 · Jan 6, 2009

Sinistar But when do you finally chuck the 'victim' hat said:
>>> When does a 75 year old recent widow "get over" her loss of a husband ?
When does an infantry vet "get over" the PTSD of being shot at daily ?
When does a rape victim "get over " it...
How about if you were beated up and robbed in an alley and you felt the need to endlessly talk it out ?

Recovery is a slow process and it happens in its own good time..

MY guess is also that you did not tangle with a true HPD. She may have had some mild traits and perhaps her behavior was disrespectful but I doubt that you met the monster. My guess is that you were with an infant version.
A lot of guys here were not so fortunate.

jophil28 · Jan 6, 2009

squirrels said:
The biggest mistake I made is NOT WALKING AWAY WHEN I SHOULD HAVE.

Here's the long and short of it. If you have a "BPD" woman or some other kind of manipulative psycho woman, dump her. Dump her now. Cut contact. Period. End of story.

THat is great advice and expresses the way that I feel now about my experience in 2006.

I SHOULD have walked away.
I SHOULD have realized that I was with HER because of some flaw in myself.
I SHOULD have never have endlessly argued discussed all the crazy shyte that she threw at me .
I SHOULD have never tolerated her male "friends".
I SHOULD have had higher self regard.
I SHOULD hnever have gotten involved at all.
I SHOULD have known that women with her alcoholic/abusive background never make good LTRs.
I SHOULD have been aware of that segment of AFC which stiil operated in me.
I SHOULD have done a lot of things differently, but I did things the way that I did because I was acting from the limitations of my understanding at the time.

When we finally parted , I was in total confusion.
I then found the MM forum on SoSuave.

BUT back then I had no clue about BPD/HPD, AWs or sickos even thoufh I had been dating around for 30 odd years.
I just called women "difficult" or" emotional" many times.
Now I can pick the difference between a normal "emotional " woman and a Cluster B wackjob in five seconds flat..

Knowledge IS power, and a man who is involved with a Cluster B needs all the power he can get. THE POWER TO WALK AWAY.
THe only place that I know that offers that knowledge to empower men is here.

jophil28 · Jan 6, 2009

squirrels said:
DOuble ..

Mr. Me · Jan 6, 2009

She was like a drug. When things were going good, it was like an intense, and amazing high, that nothing has ever compared to, before, or since. It was UNREAL. I felt the downside was worth it. The way we lusted after each other was almost superhuman. That alone, is something that is next to impossible to walk away from. Then...add the darkside, the splitting, blaming, cheating, lying, completely nonsensical rationalization

You know, this is also describing (and I'm wondering now if we can connect these dots together) the pattern of "commitment phobes" (and I know some of you discard that notion because of its over use by women shaming men, but let's say for now that we call it a term that's applicable to men and women demonstrating certain behaviors), as described in the book "He's Scared, She's Scared" by Carter & Sokol.

In that book, they examine these relationships where it's just as you describe, and how it is that the Commitment Phobic (CP)partner is the one that makes it intense, amazing, awesome, unbelievable, in the beginning but then, at some point when normalcy is invoked, doesn't really want what's there, inner fears and all at work what have you, and then push pull dynamics start or we can say the "distancer-pursuer" dance begins, which then, the more you try to keep it together escalates to her sabotaging the relationship with more agressive fights, cheating, abusive behaviors, stuff that makes you say WTF??? and if all else fails to get you to do the dirty work and break it off, they simply exit and disappear, leaving you bewildered and in shock.

Then, because the CP can't commit to "yes" but they also can't commit to "no", after some time, there's what they call the "Curtain Call", where that person tries to re-engage you back, telling you how the miss you, you were the most wonderful thing that's ever happened to them. And, if you do go back, you then experience a replay of the entire relationship all over again, except faster this time, with the same turbulent ending as before.

There are plenty of garbage threads I'm not interested in that I don't complain about or demand be locked.

Like all the "she flaked on me, so what should I say to her" threads, but unlike those threads, here we're dealing with guys who have been through an emotional roller coaster, abuse and betrayal, that may have damaged some self-esteem and caused a bit of trauma and left them unraveled some, and there's good reason to offer support and help for that.

decades · Jan 6, 2009

part of the healing process is talking about it. That's really one of the first stages. Healing is a process and it can't be rushed. I have a theory that well over half of the newbies who come here and post about a breakup or major problems with GF, have actually encountered a CLuster B in the "wild". They need our help.

jophil28 · Jan 6, 2009

Mr. Me said:
In that book, they examine these relationships where it's just as you describe, and how it is that the Commitment Phobic (CP)partner is the one that makes it intense, amazing, awesome, unbelievable, in the beginning but then, at some point when normalcy is invoked, doesn't really want what's there, inner fears and all at work what have you, and then push pull dynamics start or we can say the "distancer-pursuer" dance begins, which then, the more you try to keep it together escalates to her sabotaging the relationship with more agressive fights, cheating, abusive behaviors, stuff that makes you say WTF??? and if all else fails to get you to do the dirty work and break it off, they simply exit and disappear, leaving you bewildered and in shock.

This exactly describes the classic behavior of a BPD woman a few months into an LTR when the relationship is starting to solidify.
All this happened to me precisely in 2006 with a woman who was formally diagnosed with BPD/HPD.
Perhaps the authors of the book that you quote are really describing BPD/HPD behavior and mislabeling it "Committment phobic".

BPDs are unable to form meaningful relationship because of their psychopathology but leave a trail of wreckage behind them ...

"Committment phobic" does not include the malicious evil behavior designed to harm the other.

horaholic · Jan 6, 2009

My BPD ex tried to call ME a commitment phobe. I finally realize, all the things she was accusing me of, were things that she was pointing out in herself.

decades · Jan 6, 2009

horaholic said:
My BPD ex tried to call ME a commitment phobe. I finally realize, all the things she was accusing me of, were things that she was pointing out in herself.

also known as Projection...

Mr. Me · Jan 6, 2009

Perhaps the authors of the book that you quote are really describing BPD/HPD behavior and mislabeling it "Commitment phobic".

Just as a point of information, the authors, Sokol and Carter, were the ones that coined the term "Commitment Phobe" (CP) in their first book. They clarify it's not a psychological term at all, rather it came about as a common description to describe the experience of people who had a relationship with a CP. They had interviewed several hundred such people in their research. It appeared to be a constant that the CP does commit to a relationship fine enough (contrary to popular belief), may even be married for years, but that there comes a point where something triggers their anxieties.

Typically it's an event that signals a permanent life change or makes them ponder their mortality, such as a parent dying, buying a house, getting engaged, getting married, moving in together, or suffering an accident or having a baby. Something that suggests a permanent change. So I wonder if we look back at our own experiences, we may find that correlation as well. My ex for example, had her mother die. And I recall after our breakup, there was a moment where she expressed how she didn't want to end up like her mom, living an unfulfilled life as a wife, only to die.

Sinistar · Jan 6, 2009

jophil28 said:
How about if you were beated up and robbed in an alley and you felt the need to endlessly talk it out ?

Much like you guys I did get stuck in an endless loop of wanting to talk it out - for months. A few close friends just got sick of it. It affected my work to the point I needed to let my boss know what was happening (that was not a fun day). My parents became very worried. Then a good older friend came along and basically called me out on it point blank saying "listen - snap out of this before everything is lost." He very directly and assertively explained how I had changed, how I was stuck and why I needed to make a decision and put it behind me - for good. He survived 3 tours in Vietnam seeing direct action in all of them. He lost his share of friends. I think it was those experiences and the grief/trauma he experienced and witnessed that told him he needed to finally act rather than console.

You know the strange part - I owe him the greatest thanks for breaking me out of the endless loop, making me face it head on and taking responsibility for my own recovery - but we never talk about it anymore because we both know there is no more to ever be said regarding the details of that past misery.

To answer you question Jophil, I would hope my good friend would listen but at some point would also see that it needed to end and call me out on it rather than saying nothing all out of fear of having a friendship end. Slap me in the face if you will. Wake me up. Life is way to short to spend it in and endless loop.

There's an irony to the Cluster 'B'. Some of them at least are the byproduct of horsesh!t upbringings. At the same time probably 3/10 guys our there are terminally AFC (due to a lack of masculinity during their upbringing). She will cross paths with them. She will either destroy them completely (they are forever stuck in grief/trauma). But a few are blown so far out of the Matrix they don't ever want to go back.

persistent exaction said:
part of the healing process is talking about it. That's really one of the first stages. Healing is a process and it can't be rushed. I have a theory that well over half of the newbies who come here and post about a breakup or major problems with GF, have actually encountered a CLuster B in the "wild". They need our help.

man I love your posts and always find wisdom in them (and you have the knack for keeping them short too!).

I understand that healing can not be rushed. But I believe both grief/trauma have a beginning, middle and end. It's when the friend, coworker or counselor forgets to point out that part that I cringe.

To your theory - I am going to risk taking it further. Those newbies that come here broken by Cluster 'B's (of varying magnitude) and their ACOA's cousins quite possibly fit into another group which we don't often delve into. I wish I understood psych better (the various classifications) to put it to words better. The SS description would be man raised without a masculine figure, deeply fears rejection of any sort, who has strong tendencies towards wanting to rescue/save along and a belief systems which generally follow 20 or more years of media programming. Maybe throw in a bit of obessive compulsive and viola - you have the AFC who rarely dates (minimal experience), has been deprogrammed of all red flags and is more prone to strong one-itis sometimes crossing over to obsessions. A perfect candidate for a Cluster 'B'.

Now when that guy meets the wackjob we are quick to point out her problems (which I see as feeding them energy as we talk/barf it out) yet we are very subtle on calling out why they were so susceptible. Of course the guy never knew and never had a clue thus he is not aware and in many ways not responsible. Yet all along he knew something was wrong with his life (countless one-itis and frustrations with women). And from her first reversal he know it wasn't right but never took actions to fix it. I can't count the number of times I knew it felt wrong but thought it would get better if I just...

I can even throw in a interesting data point. I once met one of the guys who briefly dated the same woman. About 6 wks into it she flipped on him and crucified him in front of a few other people that knew them She acted later as if it never happened then as she went to start another one of these extreme push/pull cycles he just broke all contact with no prompting from anyone else. I asked why he did that and he said it felt wrong. Now the interesting part - on paper and in person every one of us would brand him lifelong AFC, rarely dates, etc. So why didn't he succumb to her ways? He was raised by a single mom, watches all the sappy movies and looking for his soulmate? Yet he was resistant to her. I think it was something different about his upbringing. He also told me about the others which she had told him to lure him in via his rescuer/savior but maybe that was defense.

To be more blunt - I believe there is a core group of guys who are much more susceptible to the Cluster 'B's. Some find their way out (or even here). Many are forever broken. Maybe it should be our duty to point out (while de-emphasizing the power of) the Cluster 'B' to them and then nudge the convo back towards them and why they are in this group so they can recognize it and find their way. Finding their way out of this group will also find them the end of their grief/trauma (IMHO).

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