The art of "hard to get" is lost on women these days...

I had this girl over last night...we watched a movie on the couch, chatted, cuddled, kissed, made out a little bit...of course, I'm constantly trying to escalate. This one's playing REALLY hard-to-get, though. You know they type...she doesn't want to give it up too soon. She wants to, but she's gotta be the "good girl".

Most women when they throw up that resistance, they start getting all dramatic about it, talking about how, "I'm not that kind of girl" or making the guy out to be some kind of shallow sex-fiend or whining about, "I want something more than that".

This girl does it right...when I get "frisky", she laughs and pushes my hands away.

No long, "why are all men pigs" conversation, no drama, just "Bzzzt...better luck next time".

This is a woman who's comfortable with male nature and understands her role in it. It's the man's job to escalate and the woman's job to resist. Much like the predator/prey model, the predator chases, the prey evades. That's part of the fun...something that humans are smart enough to enjoy.

Most women just can't handle it now...to them sexuality isn't "play", it's just another boring chapter in the boring relationship playbook and if the guy wants it outside of the context of that boring playbook, he "doesn't get it".

Too many women treat the "relationship" as a hard science...the man is SUPPOSED to do this, the woman is SUPPOSED to do this, the man is NOT supposed to do that. Kissing happens on the second date, sex not until the third at earliest, you should do it this often, you should see each other this often, you should go out this often, you should share these occasions, you should not share these occasions....blah blah blah...and if the man wants to fly by the seat of his pants, he's an arsehole and "not ready for a relationship".

Usually the ones who say they're "tired of the BS" really mean they're tired of being the only one immersed in it and want to drag a man down there with them. The ones who are REALLY "tired of the BS" don't create drama for themselves...they understand the idea that "you're a man, I'm a woman, this is a game, let's dance".

I'm not really crazy about this girl in general...I've nearly cut her loose twice now and it's only the second date. But it's refreshing once in a while to meet a woman who "gets it". At least for now...some of them turn into drama-heads later on down the line.

But the nice thing about a girl who understands that predator/prey dance is that I never feel like she needs me to apologize for being a "horndog". We learn more about each other by how we play this game...and I don't have to be anyone besides me. No trying to think of clever ways to impress her...it's just like good pillow-talk without even HAVING to f**k.

That's what women don't get any more...they think it's all about the temporal aspect, about how long you wait to f**k. They think if you refuse to f**k for x number of dates or y number of weeks, it'll help the relationship build stronger. But the reason it worked for their mothers is because their mothers knew how to build sexual tension. Their mothers cultivated other attributes that their fathers could appreciate and learned to actually display those attributes during the mating dance. Their mothers knew how to make the courtship process fun, instead of making it a boring by-the-book hassle leading to the ultimate goal of "breeding".

Bad science is no substitute for good art. If you run across a woman who has some skill in the art of the chase...take the time to appreciate it. DON'T just fall head-over-heels or chump out...because that would be a sign of lack of skill in YOUR role as the masculine element of the dance. Just appreciate the difference between a woman who feels the music and one who's just going through the motions.

You could almost compare it to a guy who understands the difference between being "a challenge" and being "aloof".

Always ask yourself 'Is/was there something wrong with me?'.
You know there is this BIG trap. You see yourself as the Man and when the circumstances (maybe she had gas or read the RULES recently or you reminded her of some perv uncle or whatever) contradict your image of yourself, your persona, your identity, your ego, you tend to rationalize it in a way favourable to your image - todays women, religious teachings, she's blind clumsy biatch etc.

You know what I mean?

F@ck it man. Stay cool, man. Shyt happens. You don't need that pvssy to breathe.

It is not meant to patronize you and I can be wrong...I wasn't there and I don't see inside you....do you see in yourself?

I maybe read too much of Zen, heh. You know I respect you, right?

Realization that I was just that scared little shyt playing the "seducer" in order to gain confidence (my mind starting to take that image as the real me, creating ego) helped me tremendously. I am what I am. I am not a chicken shyt, I know my values and I won't bent them for anyone and if a girl does not like them, well, shyt happens. Meanwhile I just chill, enjoying the little things, not stressing about the future or my image or status or whatever and to do some good time to time for I am nothing but a dust after all.

You know what I mean? I just realized that I must live my life with the same attitude like when I shoot a gun. You stress about the score, you focus too much on one thing like the rear sight...you f@ck up. You let go and just shoot...you get good score. (TM)

Hope it helps.

P.S.>
women are hopeless in playing their own games

DanelMadr said:

F@ck it man. Stay cool, man. Shyt happens. You don't need that pvssy to breathe.

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:rockon:

DanelMadr said:

You know what I mean? I just realized that I must live my life with the same attitude like when I shoot a gun. You stress about the score, you focus too much on one thing like the rear sight...you f@ck up. You let go and just shoot...you get good score.

Click to expand...

Yup just like all sports ......... wow comparing women to sports actually works

Squirrels, I can see your point about appreciating the chase and all that, but I've never been a big chaser. I'm not sure if this is because I'm lazy or because I give up too easily, but I just can't be bothered. I know the chase is fun but in the end man its all about efficiency. This is probably why I went for girls that I knew were interested in me. I think that most guys on here probably have some semblance of a business/career, and many of us work 50-60 or more hours a week. In addition I work a combo of day/night shifts which really messes with the amount of effective time you have. Mix that in with training/diet stuff and hanging out with friends and other stuff like professional development, and you really don't have all that much time to devote to chasing girls. I'm not single so maybe I'm talking outta my ass, I really don't know.

When I was single I was in school fulltime w/ 5-6 courses, some of which did take a considerable amount of prep work. In addition I was stripping 2-4 nights a week. About half of our shows were in other towns that required 1-4 hour drives. This restricted how much time I had to chase women. My thing was if I didn't get at least a BJ in the first 2 dates, I'd drop her, or just put her in the friends zone if she was a cool chic to just chill/party with.

During my single days, I've had several instances where women have told me that they'd sleep with me but would never date me. When you're in physically elite shape and have a "bad boy" thing going on (I was a druggie stripper) girls will only wanna use you for sex. This kind of emphasized the point in my mind that women would typically only want me for sex and not a whole lot else. Taking this point into consideration, I would try and hit it fast and if the sex was worth it I'd come back for more. Given my time constraints I could never go out with more than 3-4 girls at once. I think 3 is a good number for guys that are busy as it gives you good sexual variety, and you still have time to appreciate and really experience all of them. You can always drop and pick up girls if better options present themselves.

So in short, the chase is fun, and I enjoyed building sexual tension, etc, but for us busier guys I think efficiency is the name of the game. If you're in topline shape, have a fun personality and any type of game you really shouldn't have issues getting into a girl's holes within the first 1-3 dates.

Just my 2 cents.

I remember my fiancee's and I first date it was at the beach. You have to keep in mind ast this time I had at leats 4 plates, 4 seriuos plates, that was the height of my days, I really had a I don't give a damn attitude and I had my game prett yhoned in. The whole time I was nibbling on her neck and she was while digging it, she kept saying "it's not happening" wih a smile on her face. But, it in a way, that it was a game if that makes sense. WE both knew the rules. She was digging the fact that I was being agressive, yet she couldn't give it up, or i would not respect her, but she at the same time, would not respect me if I didn't try to make her give it up. Does that make sense?

"So I invite her back to my house for dinner (at this time i was in AA so i wasn't drinking), she says "okay but you aren't getting any, just letting you know now", so I say "look babe, i can't believe you would think all I want to do is have sex" with this smirk on my face. So; we are eating and watching a movie and I go right back end, as she expected me to, and as I expected, she wasn't going. she was enjoying it, i was enjoying it, but it was like.. neither could give in. i could notgive up and she could not give in. Never asked her wy, she never told me to stop. She just keep saying no, I kept persisting. We had so much fun doing this ****, I actually convinced her to spend the night, and she did. I told her I would sleep oin the couch out of respect, she can sleep in my bed. That lasted all about 2 hours, she woke up and came and slept on the couch with me, and of course, i tried again, and she kept turning me away. It was actually quite fun.

This went on or about 3 dates, I almost got her on the 3rd date, I got some nibble breast action lol but she pulled back. then on the 4th date, i was expecting to keep going, and she just walks through the door, grabs me and throws me on the bed and we ****ed like rabbits

I don't think squirrels is talking about "playing hard to get" so that he has to chase. He's talking about a woman playing hard to get in an entirely wrong manner by blaming & shaming the man for his natural desire & role in the mating dance.

I had a couple like that. By the time they got to the dramatic part with the blame & shame, I'd already tuned out and done with them.

Fugly is right though. I don't enjoy chasing as I simply have no time for that. I'm too busy at it is. A bit of teasing is fine, but making me work too hard for sex and making me the bad guy for going for it? Fvck that sh1t.

I don't mind it, as I see it as proper frame setting if that makes sense. Millie (my fiancee) was just setting the frame that hey, i like that you want to **** me, and the feeling is mutual, but you are going to have to earn it, i don't hand this out like candy, i'm not a *****, i am just into you.

I was setting my frame.. look, i think you are hot and i am going to try to have sex with you. She was setting her frame in response, I like you too, hence me letting you nibble on me all the time and sleeping on top of you on the couch, but "that", while not off limits, you are going to have to earn it and at the same time find out a little bit more about you before we start having casual sex. While at the same time relazing she could only wait so long before giving it up. had she gone on too much longer i would have lost interest. as stated it's an art form. Had she made me feel bad about trying to have sex with her she would have been kicked to the curb.

squirrels said:

It's the man's job to escalate and the woman's job to resist.

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You know squirrels in all my years of scoring with chicks I never ever was the guy trying to escalate. Thinking back, the only time I can ever remember doing that, I was in high school.

I don't mean that as an insult at all. Just trying to point out that there is always another side.

My method was always ME being the one playing hard to get. Sometimes to the point where she was literally jumping on me. Building sexual tension to that point takes more time and patience but almost always leads to overwhelming success. You definitely come across as something "different". You won't get a lot of one nighters playing this way but you NEVER encounter resistance like you are describing here.

Almost every girl I ever dated would tell me she absolutely couldn't wait for me to make a move. When I finally did it was like the flood gates opening.

I would take chicks on 2 or 3 dates without even a hint of me trying anything physical. I'd show them a great time, lots of laughs, and be gone in a flash with no indication that I was ever going to see them again.

I can remember one date where the girl followed me home after I dropped her off. She knocked on my door and told me she didn't want to play games anymore . We made out in the entrance way and she gave me a blow job right there.

Something that I also remember (and my buddies remind me of) is that not only did girls go batsh!t crazy over me, but their friends did too. It was like these girls were telling their friends about me and their frustrations due to the fact that I DIDN'T try anything. It was always a little awkward when I'd meet her friends and get "the vibe". Sometimes it would end up in a lot of drama with multiple women vying for my attention. Nice problems to have. (Now how many girls go home and proudly tell their roommates about the one night stand they just had? Probably none. Food for thought.)

My friends actually used to warn girls I was dating away from me. They'd say "You don't wanna date Slick. Every girl he dates falls madly in love with him."

I realize you maybe aren't looking to have women fall head over heels in love but consider the following:

What is the better sex?
A) Sex with the girl you've pressed, coaxed, and coerced into doing it.
or
B) Sex with the girl who is so enamoured with you and wants to be your gf so badly that she will fcuk you like its the last day on earth.

Anyhow, I realize I'm not adding anything to your theory here. I just read your post and got to thinking about the last time I encountered resistance you describe here. All I can say is that by playing hard to get I had way more green lights than I did red ones.

squirrels said:

You could almost compare it to a guy who understands the difference between being "a challenge" and being "aloof".

Click to expand...

I'm struggling with the balance between challenge and aloof. Can you recommend any reading to help me in that regard? Thanks.

backbreaker said:

I remember my fiancee's and I first date it was at the beach. You have to keep in mind ast this time I had at leats 4 plates, 4 seriuos plates, that was the height of my days, I really had a I don't give a damn attitude and I had my game prett yhoned in. The whole time I was nibbling on her neck and she was while digging it, she kept saying "it's not happening" wih a smile on her face. But, it in a way, that it was a game if that makes sense. WE both knew the rules. She was digging the fact that I was being agressive, yet she couldn't give it up, or i would not respect her, but she at the same time, would not respect me if I didn't try to make her give it up. Does that make sense?

"So I invite her back to my house for dinner (at this time i was in AA so i wasn't drinking), she says "okay but you aren't getting any, just letting you know now", so I say "look babe, i can't believe you would think all I want to do is have sex" with this smirk on my face. So; we are eating and watching a movie and I go right back end, as she expected me to, and as I expected, she wasn't going. she was enjoying it, i was enjoying it, but it was like.. neither could give in. i could notgive up and she could not give in. Never asked her wy, she never told me to stop. She just keep saying no, I kept persisting. We had so much fun doing this ****, I actually convinced her to spend the night, and she did. I told her I would sleep oin the couch out of respect, she can sleep in my bed. That lasted all about 2 hours, she woke up and came and slept on the couch with me, and of course, i tried again, and she kept turning me away. It was actually quite fun.

This went on or about 3 dates, I almost got her on the 3rd date, I got some nibble breast action lol but she pulled back. then on the 4th date, i was expecting to keep going, and she just walks through the door, grabs me and throws me on the bed and we ****ed like rabbits

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That's exactly what I'm talking about. Your fiancee knew she was worth staying around for...she didn't give it up, nor did she give you the typical "all men are only into one thing" whining.

It's the idea of women knowing how to play the game well, rather than complaining that men won't "let them win". Both sexes these days are a bunch of entitlement-complex whiners...they expect the other side to make concessions on a timetable based on some arbitrary set of "rules". We address the male-side here on this forum and elsewhere, but no one addresses the female side.

Why? Because "relationships" is one of the few "sciences" (and I use the term loosely) at which women claim to "master by default", instead of having to work at it, and they don't want that taken away from them.

Slickster...while you think your approach is different, it's more similar than you know. The "horndog" is who *I* am, just like the hard-to-get is who *YOU* are.

At no time did I feel like I was doing anything other than what I wanted to do because I wanted to do it.

JD57 said:

I'm struggling with the balance between challenge and aloof.

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I think a lot of guys get hung up on the term "aloof". The word conjures up the idea that a guy has to pretend to be looking down his nose at some girl he's interested in in a lame effort to get her to qualify to him. When people read "aloof" they tend to think "haughty" or feigned disinterest. Throw that term away right now, because you don't want to be "aloof". What you want is AMUSED MASTERY.

Amused Mastery puts you into a position of maturity while still remaining playfully approachable and forcing her to qualify to you by acknowledging your mastery of her (really all women by association). An attitude of Amused Mastery implies to woman that by virtue of your maturity and/or authority you've "seen it all before", you already know what women mean when they say or do what she is, and it's amusing to you. You'll play along, but only so far as to cleverly poke fun at her attempts to get you to qualify to her. It means you never take her seriously, like a bratty sister.

I'll admit I never fully appreciated the potential of Amused Mastery until I had a daughter. I find myself naturally using it with her because that's the actual, unforced relation I have with her. Especially now that she's almost 13. However, I also notice my wife finds Amused Mastery just as appealing, to the point that she includes herself in my Mastery over my daughter.

It's particularly effective for older men / younger women Game. Assuming you're in reasonably good shape and have some degree of affluence, being older gives you a degree of authenticity. With maturity comes an expectation of knowledge and experience for Men. I've used Amused Mastery with my "pour girls" at promo events and it's like cat nip for them. You become that Father figure to them (FILF?) that they crave, but can't seem to get from younger guys.

I stopped playing "hard to get" when I got divorced.

I've mastered "hard to want" game. Playing hard to want puts her in an immediate, and constant, state of validation.

The pinnacle of aloof game.

Rollo Tomassi said:

I've used Amused Mastery with my "pour girls" at promo events and it's like cat nip for them. You become that Father figure to them (FILF?) that they crave, but can't seem to get from younger guys.

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I agree that women appreciate the experience and maturity of the older male. Of course at some point as you age, you're going to go from "father figure" to "grandpa type". Or, in other words, you will cease to be the sexy older guy, and become the amusingly harmless dirty old man skirt chaser. The question is at what point does that occur? Maybe when you cease to be able to get it up.

Regarding the flirting, how does this square with "if you're not fvcking her, you're her girlfriend"? Or is that out of context?

Rollo Tomassi said:

I think a lot of guys get hung up on the term "aloof". The word conjures up the idea that a guy has to pretend to be looking down his nose at some girl he's interested in in a lame effort to get her to qualify to him. When people read "aloof" they tend to think "haughty" or feigned disinterest. Throw that term away right now, because you don't want to be "aloof". What you want is AMUSED MASTERY.

Amused Mastery puts you into a position of maturity while still remaining playfully approachable and forcing her to qualify to you by acknowledging your mastery of her (really all women by association). An attitude of Amused Mastery implies to woman that by virtue of your maturity and/or authority you've "seen it all before", you already know what women mean when they say or do what she is, and it's amusing to you. You'll play along, but only so far as to cleverly poke fun at her attempts to get you to qualify to her. It means you never take her seriously, like a bratty sister.

I'll admit I never fully appreciated the potential of Amused Mastery until I had a daughter. I find myself naturally using it with her because that's the actual, unforced relation I have with her. Especially now that she's almost 13. However, I also notice my wife finds Amused Mastery just as appealing, to the point that she includes herself in my Mastery over my daughter.

It's particularly effective for older men / younger women Game. Assuming you're in reasonably good shape and have some degree of affluence, being older gives you a degree of authenticity. With maturity comes an expectation of knowledge and experience for Men. I've used Amused Mastery with my "pour girls" at promo events and it's like cat nip for them. You become that Father figure to them (FILF?) that they crave, but can't seem to get from younger guys.

Click to expand...

QFT. Absolutely true.

Rollo Tomassi said:

I think a lot of guys get hung up on the term "aloof". The word conjures up the idea that a guy has to pretend to be looking down his nose at some girl he's interested in in a lame effort to get her to qualify to him. When people read "aloof" they tend to think "haughty" or feigned disinterest. Throw that term away right now, because you don't want to be "aloof". What you want is AMUSED MASTERY.

Amused Mastery puts you into a position of maturity while still remaining playfully approachable and forcing her to qualify to you by acknowledging your mastery of her (really all women by association). An attitude of Amused Mastery implies to woman that by virtue of your maturity and/or authority you've "seen it all before", you already know what women mean when they say or do what she is, and it's amusing to you. You'll play along, but only so far as to cleverly poke fun at her attempts to get you to qualify to her. It means you never take her seriously, like a bratty sister.

I'll admit I never fully appreciated the potential of Amused Mastery until I had a daughter. I find myself naturally using it with her because that's the actual, unforced relation I have with her. Especially now that she's almost 13. However, I also notice my wife finds Amused Mastery just as appealing, to the point that she includes herself in my Mastery over my daughter.

It's particularly effective for older men / younger women Game. Assuming you're in reasonably good shape and have some degree of affluence, being older gives you a degree of authenticity. With maturity comes an expectation of knowledge and experience for Men. I've used Amused Mastery with my "pour girls" at promo events and it's like cat nip for them. You become that Father figure to them (FILF?) that they crave, but can't seem to get from younger guys.

Click to expand...

I f@king hated that as a kid, lol.

And sometimes some "intellectual" girls try this on me. You can see it in their face....Amused Mastery. Pretty good term.

I like that term as well, "Amused Mastery". Basically, it's a more specific application of ****y & Funny, am I correct?


Off topic: Rollo, I sent you a question over PM a week ago but you never replied. I also PM'ed Desdinova about it, but no reply from him either

Slickster said:

What is the better sex?
A) Sex with the girl you've pressed, coaxed, and coerced into doing it.
or
B) Sex with the girl who is so enamoured with you and wants to be your gf so badly that she will fcuk you like its the last day on earth.

Anyhow, I realize I'm not adding anything to your theory here. I just read your post and got to thinking about the last time I encountered resistance you describe here. All I can say is that by playing hard to get I had way more green lights than I did red ones.

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What Squirrels is describing is NOT a process of badgering a girl to the point that it becomes annoying. It's actually an ENJOYABLE process for an interested woman to play the "resistance" game (it should be obvious through her body language that it's just a game!). Nature dictates that men are to be the aggressors, and highly feminine women are natural coquettes.

Your approach works with women that already have HIGH interest, and are scared of ruining their chances by playing "hard to get." However, I can't help but think that there is a whole subset of very feminine women that you are ignoring- and I don't mean the ones that "shame" a man for hitting on them, I mean the ones that enjoy the theater of the chase. In my experience, the ones that chase me often turn out to either be clingers or overly assertive, whereas the ones I have to pursue a bit are a bit more traditional and let me take the lead.

Rollo Tomassi said:

An attitude of Amused Mastery implies to woman that by virtue of your maturity and/or authority you've "seen it all before", you already know what women mean when they say or do what she is, and it's amusing to you. You'll play along, but only so far as to cleverly poke fun at her attempts to get you to qualify to her. It means you never take her seriously, like a bratty sister.

Click to expand...

This is something that I hadn't really explored before but it's now very prevalent in my current relationship. She is 20. I'm 36. She loves it that I know all her "woman tricks" and that I make fun of her when she tries to shit test me (all women do). I'm always making fun of her (in a friendly, "aloof" way -- never disrespectful). She calls me "super fun" and has a great time when she's with me.

I'll admit I never fully appreciated the potential of Amused Mastery until I had a daughter. I find myself naturally using it with her because that's the actual, unforced relation I have with her.

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This is totally true. I find myself behaving the way I do, not only because of my Game but because naturally, that's how I would act towards someone this age.

It's particularly effective for older men / younger women Game. Assuming you're in reasonably good shape and have some degree of affluence, being older gives you a degree of authenticity. With maturity comes an expectation of knowledge and experience for Men.

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And this is exactly what my current girlfriend liked in me. She told me that when she first saw me at work, not only was she physically attracted to me but that I also give off an aura of maturity and no-nonsense.

That and that I'm a sharp dresser!

Rollo Tomassi said:

Amused Mastery puts you into a position of maturity while still remaining playfully approachable and forcing her to qualify to you by acknowledging your mastery of her (really all women by association).

Click to expand...

"Amused mastery" is a close relative to "command presence" as taught in officer training school.