Stronglift's 5x5 vs Starting Strength

I am currently on the former, but it was suggested by Kerpal (see Mex's journal) that Starting Strength (SS) would be better for a beginner due to less volume. I googled this and it seems that on most forums where this question was addressed, that SS is the better choice. I want to hear what others on this forum have to say about it.

I dont like to switch once I have started so I probably should have had asked this question before starting, but thats too late now.

If you check my journal, I injured my lower back doing deads today, and I know it is because of bad technique/form, but not positive what I did wrong in terms of that. It is likely due to having the bar too low, the largest plates on the bar were 25 lbs. But I cant help but wonder that having done 5x5 squats first, could have influenced my poor back positioning, and maybe if I had only done 3x5 this would not have happened. I practiced form for deads the day before with a broom stick, and I naturally do more of a squat motion, unless I really focus on form. Once the weights are on, I might have lost some focus and used a squat form. So maybe I need a routine with less squats. Who knows, that really doesnt make much sense, since I need to learn the right way to deadlift anyway.

Any comments are appreciated, so lets hear the debate.

First of all, where did you learn how to do the exercises? If you never learned them correctly, you need to get that sorted out before you even start thinking about what program to do.

I think whoever created the Stronglifts program just took Starting Strength, replaced the power cleans with rows, added some unnecessary accessory work, and increased the volume.

To learn form I just watched videos on youtube, and watched Rippetoe teach on his SS webpage.

I feel very comfortable doing squats, bench, and press. I started very light so form was easy to practice. Squats really feel the most natural for me so far. As far as deads, I have to admit that I had a fear of them before I even attempted them. They look like back breakers, even when the pros do them. I know I need to have trust that when done correctly, they will not cause problems, but subconsciously I guess I am not convinced. Maybe this is impeding my form on them. I mean, when I practiced form at home with a broom stick, I am sure I got it right after a little while. But there was no weight for me to worry about whether they were right or not. You know the saying ...if you think your going to fail you will fail..." maybe this is happening at the gym. Even a few days ago when I deadlifted only 95lbs, they were not smooth. Now this time, with 110 lbs, the first deadlift went fine, but I have f***d up the form on the 2nd when my lower back gave out. I am really pissed at myself!

As far as switching over to SS, I would definitely not be doing any power cleans until I can perfect the deadlift for obvious reasons. However, there are novice programs which repalce PCs with chin/pull-ups. Also, these only have you deadlifting 1 day a week, see below.

http://startingstrength.wikia.com/wiki/The_Starting_Strength_Novice/Beginner_Programs

So on the off days of deadlifts, I can practice with an empty bar or something, and work slowly into them to avoid injury.

Anyway, as I said, I dont want to be trigger happy and get in the habit of changing routines, but a lot of people have agreed that 5x5 is just SS with extra fluff and volume. I really just want to settle into 1 routine, work hard, and enjoy the benefits, until I ahve to switch. But if people really think that SS is superior, then I have no problem switching now.

Deadlift isn't a lower back movement, it's a glute and hamstring exercise. The more you can understand that, the safer it will be.

Give the lower back some rest for 2-3 days then start with light exercise(walking). After a week or two start doing some bodyweight hyper extensions for rehab. When you feel ready after that, start back with Deads.

Best to practice form with light weight for as long as you have to till you nail it.

Rippetoes is 1x5 deadlifts anyway.

I'm doing rippes and love it.

On StrongLifts you'll stall a lot sooner than if you'd gone with SS. The upside to that is once you've stalled on 5x5, you can drop to 3x5 and keep increasing. But, I agree on StrongLifts being SS with extra unnecessary fluff. Keep in mind, though, no matter which one you choose, keep driving up those poundages, shovel in the food, and sleep until you get bedsores. Good luck!

Most will do better on Rippetoe. Taking 3x a week squats and adding more volume isn't the best idea in my opinion.

Here is some deadlift stuff:

http://journal.crossfit.com/2006/11/a-new-rather-long-analysis-of.tpl
http://library.crossfit.com/free/pdf/51-2006_AnalysisofDeadlift.pdf

From that article:

1) The back must be locked in extension.
2) The bar must be touching the shins, with the feet
flat on the floor.
3) The shoulders must be out in front of the bar so
that the shoulder blades are directly above the bar.

This puts the bar in the middle of the foot at the start of the lift. Use the big plates like Kerpal said. If you can't manage, use the smaller plates but raise the bar height using plates or a rack.

Quiksilver said:

Deadlift isn't a lower back movement, it's a glute and hamstring exercise. The more you can understand that, the safer it will be.

Give the lower back some rest for 2-3 days then start with light exercise(walking). After a week or two start doing some bodyweight hyper extensions for rehab. When you feel ready after that, start back with Deads.

Best to practice form with light weight for as long as you have to till you nail it.

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huh? What muscles do you think deadlift works once the barbell passes your knees? You think it is just glutes? I am not being a smart ass, I am just interested in what you think.

I've been on SS for 4-5 months now and I really like it, Im seeing good gains in strenght. Even so, squatting 3x a week was I think, too much for me.
Im now alternating front squats (with a lighter weight) and my squat is going up again.

Ive not tried stronglifts so cant comment on it specifically, but if SS works, and it does for me and many others, why do more volume?

Cure.

Kerpal said:

First of all, where did you learn how to do the exercises? If you never learned them correctly, you need to get that sorted out before you even start thinking about what program to do.

I think whoever created the Stronglifts program just took Starting Strength, replaced the power cleans with rows, added some unnecessary accessory work, and increased the volume.

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Can't disagree with you there that Stronglifts 5x5 is just a rehash of Starting Strength, they are basically the same program.

However, I think Stronglifts 5x5 is a more beginner friendly program. Firstly because you are given access to a website jam packed with good information siphoned. Stonglifts.com does for weightlifting what sosuave.com does for seduction. The easily accessible information will quickly provide the reader with an understanding of weightlifting, seeing as i doubt many beginners are going to buy starting strength book as opposed to logging on a website.

The description of stronglifts 5x5 is also much more begginer friendly, describing exactly what you do in all likely situations. Whereas all I can find on the net about the starting strength program is the types of exercises and the volume. Little information about what weight to start on, what to do when you miss weights, how to progress etc.

The program is also more beginner friendly as you don't choose your starting weight, but just start with the bar, which allows you to get the technique sounder as you progress up to work weights. Also the power clean is a very technical lift, which will cause problems for absolute beginners trying to learn it if they don't have a coach. Needless to say, once you are ready to learn them, you can easily swap the rows out for cleans.

However, I do think stronglifts 5x5 is too hard! Once you get onto heavier weights, you're going to be knackered alot and it takes real getting used to. the 5x5 volume can be too much sometimes and I think moving down to 3x5 earlier would be a good idea on stronglifts.

I do think starting strength is a more superior program, but it's just not as easily accessible for begginners as stronglifts 5x5. However, if they are going to buy the starting strength book, which a lot of people highly recommend, then by all means do starting strength.

Here is a good idea of the differences: http://stronglifts.com/stronglifts-5x5-vs-rippetoe-3x5-starting-strength/

"I believe Rippetoe 3×5 is better for strength and StrongLifts 5×5 is better for building muscle, losing fat and learning technique without a coach." This is basically the gist of it for those unwilling to read so much text.

I just want to make sure that this is the edition of the Starting Strength book that people suggest.

http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/09...&pf_rd_t=101&pf_rd_p=470938631&pf_rd_i=507846

I ask because there was a first edition, and there is also at least one more book by Rippetoe. Thanks.

It doesn't matter, they both work well. Get a coin..... heads-SS, tails- 5x5, flip it that's what you'll do for the next 12weeks (at least)

Mex said:

I just want to make sure that this is the edition of the Starting Strength book that people suggest.

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Yep, thats the one, Ive got it, and its awesome, well worth the money.

Cure.

CaptainJ said:

The description of stronglifts 5x5 is also much more begginer friendly, describing exactly what you do in all likely situations. Whereas all I can find on the net about the starting strength program is the types of exercises and the volume. Little information about what weight to start on, what to do when you miss weights, how to progress etc.

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This is all covered in the book. There's a lot of good info on the Stronglifts site but I think the Rippetoe book contains more info on the actual exercises and how to perform them correctly.

Mex said:

I just want to make sure that this is the edition of the Starting Strength book that people suggest.

http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/09...&pf_rd_t=101&pf_rd_p=470938631&pf_rd_i=507846

I ask because there was a first edition, and there is also at least one more book by Rippetoe. Thanks.

Click to expand...

Yeah that's it. The only major difference between the 2 editions is a section on assistance exercises. Practical Programming for Strength Training is a good book too once you get past the novice stage, but not required at this point.

if you are doing squats 3 times a week you aren't doing them right or you aren't doing enough weight or you aren't pushing yourself enough

I do squats on tuesday and again on fridays. you need to allow yourself at least 48-72 hours to fully get back together after breaking your msucles down.

3 times a week if you are pushing yourself and lifting big is way too much

backbreaker said:

if you are doing squats 3 times a week you aren't doing them right or you aren't doing enough weight or you aren't pushing yourself enough

I do squats on tuesday and again on fridays. you need to allow yourself at least 48-72 hours to fully get back together after breaking your msucles down.

3 times a week if you are pushing yourself and lifting big is way too much

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Were talking about people at the beginner stage.

I respect Rippetoe and he was one of the first strength instructors I learned from when I was getting started but the more I learn about good programming and general use for people I find myself drifting farther and farther away from rippetoes views on strength and conditioning.

I dont know anything about stronglifts program but I did meet a random dude once who told me he was following it and got some good results.

I would use Joe Defranco's West Side for Skinny Bastards, or a program from Zack Even Esh.

EFFORT said:

Were talking about people at the beginner stage.

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Worth noting that people are beginners for longer than they think. Until you can squat 1.5x your bodyweight, you're beginner.

Also worth nothing that these beginner programs can be milked by intermediates.

EFFORT said:

Were talking about people at the beginner stage.

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so am I.

3 times a week? pepole like jay cutler don't work out muscles intensely 3 times a week. that's not going to do antyhing but discourage muscle growth

you have to learn the science behind weight lifting.

breakt he muscle down.

give it time to build up

help it build up by eating right and getting alot of sleep


most people think (broscience) that by working out more I will get bigger. that's complete crap.

i work out 6 days a week, but i only work each muscle 2 times a week

when you start off i would even suggest working out each muscle group 1 time a week

monday - back
tuesday - chest
wednesday -quads / hamstrings
thursday - arms
friday -abs



seriously. 3 times in 7 days? with rest?

that's sucide.

I'm 5'8, 170 and I bench right under 300 pounds, i deadlift 430 and I squat 550 pounds. that comes from years in the gym, but when i started i made the same mistake. working out constantly and i wasn't gaining anything and i was always sore.

the focus should not be only many times you work ou but how intense that work out is.

if your goals are to get bigger for the first 3 months i would not work out a body part more than 1 time a week.


I basically use a 5x5 routine for my workouts, a little variation of it.

but man.. lol, the only msucle you can even think about working 3 times a week are calvs. calfs i can see 3 times a week

doing squats which work the majority of the major muscles in your body, to the extreme, 3 times a week and exepcting to GROW lol

backbreaker said:

so am I.

3 times a week? pepole like jay cutler don't work out muscles intensely 3 times a week. that's not going to do antyhing but discourage muscle growth

you have to learn the science behind weight lifting.

breakt he muscle down.

give it time to build up

help it build up by eating right and getting alot of sleep


most people think (broscience) that by working out more I will get bigger. that's complete crap.

i work out 6 days a week, but i only work each muscle 2 times a week

when you start off i would even suggest working out each muscle group 1 time a week

monday - back
tuesday - chest
wednesday -quads / hamstrings
thursday - arms
friday -abs



seriously. 3 times in 7 days? with rest?

that's sucide.

I'm 5'8, 170 and I bench right under 300 pounds, i deadlift 430 and I squat 550 pounds. that comes from years in the gym, but when i started i made the same mistake. working out constantly and i wasn't gaining anything and i was always sore.

the focus should not be only many times you work ou but how intense that work out is.

if your goals are to get bigger for the first 3 months i would not work out a body part more than 1 time a week.


I basically use a 5x5 routine for my workouts, a little variation of it.

but man.. lol, the only msucle you can even think about working 3 times a week are calvs. calfs i can see 3 times a week

doing squats which work the majority of the major muscles in your body, to the extreme, 3 times a week and exepcting to GROW lol

Click to expand...

looks like Mark Ripptoe has it all wrong :crackup:

Beginners aren't using pro level bodybuilder weights. Obviously when there weights get higher they won't be able to squat 3 days a week but until then they'll make some fast gains squatting 3 times a week.