Honor

Rollo Tomassi said:

As Men we're respected when we keep our word, sacrifice ourselves (even to the point of disposability), solve problems rationally, say what we mean - mean what we say, and a whole host of other qualifiers that make us respectable and worthy of integrity. We must be OVERT and above board; and when we encounter a man who is COVERT in his dealings we call him 'shifty' or untrustworthy.

But it's just this OVERT masculine nature that women are only too ready to exploit.

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The most important characteristic of Honor, is honoring thyself. And with this Honor, a woman cannot exploit or manipulate.

After all, if a woman shames, exploits or manipulates, it is simply because YOU LET HER. This is associated with lack of honor if your paramount rule is to ALWAYS honor yourself.

These words honor, integrity and respect are thrown here and manipulated to fit the poster's very way of thinking. However, at the end of the day no matter how often you manipulate these attributes, it is the man who possesses genuine integrity and honor who will consistently own the frame of interactions. By honoring himself, it is either PUT UP or SHUT UP. If the context is compromised, he walks away. There are no thoughts of pain/pleasure, just the ACTION of ejecting from an unfavorable rapport. This can only be done (without a thought), when one implements a code of honor which includes honoring thyself as the cardinal rule, before honoring others.

And this gentlemen, is how HONOR will ALWAYS serve as an asset and in no way, shape or form may this implementation of honor be misconstrued as a liability.

guru1000 said:

The most important characteristic of Honor, is honoring thyself. And with this Honor, a woman cannot exploit or manipulate.

After all, if a woman shames, exploits or manipulates, it is simply because YOU LET HER. This is associated with lack of honor if your paramount rule is to ALWAYS honor yourself.

These words honor, integrity and respect are thrown here and manipulated to fit the poster's very way of thinking. However, at the end of the day no matter how often you manipulate these attributes, it is the man who possesses genuine integrity and honor who will consistently own the frame of interactions. By honoring himself, it is either PUT UP or SHUT UP. If the context is compromised, he walks away. There are no thoughts of pain/pleasure, just the ACTION of ejecting from an unfavorable rapport. This can only be done (without a thought), when one implements a code of honor which includes honoring thyself as the cardinal rule, before honoring others.

And this gentlemen, is how HONOR will ALWAYS serve as an asset and in no way, shape or form may this implementation of honor be misconstrued as a liability.

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Thank you! This is the essence of what I believe. With no standards, values or expecatations you just run blindly after anything, do anything. How could you be more a slave?

Tictac

guru1000 said:

And this gentlemen, is how HONOR will ALWAYS serve as an asset and in no way, shape or form may this implementation of honor be misconstrued as a liability.

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Agreed.

The belief that being "honorable" makes you vulnerable to a woman's exploitation is absurd. Honor is often mistakenly regarded as foppish chivalry.
This belief shows a poor understanding of what honor really is.
Almost by definition, "HONOR" expressly implies living by a set of rules and guidlines to steer a man though the dilemmas that he encounters.
The rules apply equally to all, starting with himself and his own best interests.
IF one lives honorably by honoring oneself first, exploitation by others is almost impossible.

I think the important question to ask is: "Why do any two people cooperate with each other to begin with?" It seems to me that the most likely answer is mutual benefit of individual selfish interest. I think that considering the origins of values and virtues can give much insight to their present-day usages.

Suppose that human nature is inherently selfish. Why? because those more selfish (and powerful and cunning and sexual) were more likely to procreate. The motivations and mindset of our ancestors who took part in the creation of the first social structures of values, virtues, and morals have a lot to do with what happens today. Why? because no memories or learned experiences are physically passed along to offspring, only DNA and some organelles; our germ line cells are segregated even before birth. We are slow to evolve and the human genome is virtually unchanged in thousands of years, and by extension the same lack of change is implied to human nature.

It seems probable that values such as honor have always been used with fundamental selfish intent, specifically when cooperation is not simultaneous, but rather in a reciprocating quid pro quo fashion. The more virtuous may place greater value in the perceived benefits of status and reciprocity that result from the credit score of reputation. The less virtuous, on the other hand, may perceive greater benefit in manipulating those that aspire to be virtuous. The two perspectives, of course, are not mutually exclusive. Different environments--modern business, politics, relationships--might simply manifest inherent human selfishness in different ways. I think this is analogous to how an object, such as a hand, can be represented by a plethora of different sounds and written symbols. The many different languages manifest the same object in different ways. Although there is change in expression, the object itself is invariant.

Although modern women may have a more powerful voice, I would be suspect to believe that there were ever a time when the manipulation of social virtues (by women or men) was not a popular tool.

DJeasy said:

It seems probable that values such as honor have always been used with fundamental selfish intent, specifically when cooperation is not simultaneous, but rather in a reciprocating quid pro quo fashion.

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If by 'selfishness' you mean that cooperation's apparent value exceeds its apparent costs to each participant, very well. Each receives excess value for cooperating above that available by going it alone. In my world, that's a 'trade'. It when you add in free riders that problems begin.

And so honor, individually and cooperatively, is a set of agreements on which people conduct themselves to receive those excess values. Those who free ride corrupt the system, but only partially. They are parasites.

This is why it is so important to honor yourself first. For that is to understand principles (as opposed to rules) on which you will or will not deal with others.
If someone doesn't hold to your code, you dismiss them. If they do, you affiliate with them based upon shared agreements.

Its a big and indifferent world. But if you know who you are (defined by your personal code) and how you choose to relate to others (defined by your cooperative code), you know how to behave in interactions with others.

For example, I do not tolerate neediness, drama or trashiness in women I have in my life. That included my wife of 24 years. Did it hurt to cut that cord? Absolutely! But staying with it would have been much worse because I could not live my values with her behavior ongoing and she either could not or would not change.

As said on this site, I was willing to walk away. And that makes all the difference.

Tictac

Tictac said:

If by 'selfishness' you mean that cooperation's apparent value exceeds its apparent costs to each participant, very well. Each receives excess value for cooperating above that available by going it alone. In my world, that's a 'trade'. It when you add in free riders that problems begin.

And so honor, individually and cooperatively, is a set of agreements on which people conduct themselves to receive those excess values. Those who free ride corrupt the system, but only partially. They are parasites.

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We might also say that a set of agreements on which people conduct themselves is what social morals in general are, an arbitrary system of laws and policing against free riders and other apparent defectors.

That corruption of such a system is rampant I think is indicative that the primary focus was not and is still not on the set of agreements themselves (or the corresponding status in and of itself) but rather the excess value they can provide--the value reputation can bring. An apparently honest businessman who is not truly honest can yield both the reward of reputation and free riding. If the primary driving force were virtuous reputation, I think such phenomena would be much less frequently observed (because there is some inherent risk in any defection of moral code). It is still my guess that social morality was and is inherently a tool of selfish human nature (of which is not necessarily detrimental to others).

In terms of people being virtuous to their independently defined morals, I agree with you on its merits. It is within individual power to decide the consistency and specificity of such a code and I think that following any well-defined (unconflicting) system of beliefs can provide congruent life structure, clear direction, and a more positive and rigid self identity.

Chivalry & Feminism...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=medVCq8eWPk

She is a feminist, but at least she's more or less honest here.

I've said this before, but I'll say it once again:

Honor
Loyalty
Integrity

These three qualities are masculine traits. From early childhood males are inundated with social programming to embrace them, and females simply are not. Sure women may hold them in high esteem when they think things through, but when the rubber meets the road, when emotions override logic, women are simple incapable of following through with their ideals with regard to the above qualities. This is why there is no female equivalent of "bros before hos" and why these traits are wholly MASCULINE traits.

Now whether or not men should give them up and be more like women and do what they want when they want is another argument entirely.

Never take what people say at face value! Observe what they do, look for inconcistencies. Play a sucker to catch a sucker.

If in your deliberations you see someone is trying to fool you, go along, and do not be taken in. If someone is talking too much about honesty, and values it might be a smoke screen.

I thought the point was to be a well-rounded overall person? Well doesn't that include a strong balance of being a nice/honorable man while at the same time being a strong/confident player?

You guys trip me out with the "extremes". How can you NEVER be honorable? You SHOULD want to support your kids and you SHOULD eventually want to settle down, the balance just becomes settling with the RIGHT woman.

But I guess that's just my Loveshack/Mangina soul talking right? Well, I don't read these "American Women Svck" thread types over there where a bunch of guys are just sitting around talking about how much they can't trust women and how much women are manipulating them. I don't read how women are divorcing them and taking all of their assets. I don't read any of that. I read about loving, fulfilling, and thriving relationships!

As you think you are! Isn't that what your almighty Pook thought you? Why not adopt it?

Why you guys NEVER look in the mirror is amazing.

Wikipedia said:

Two suspects are arrested by the police. The police have insufficient evidence for a conviction, and, having separated both prisoners, visit each of them to offer the same deal. If one testifies (defects from the other) for the prosecution against the other and the other remains silent (cooperates with the other), the betrayer goes free and the silent accomplice receives the full 10-year sentence. If both remain silent, both prisoners are sentenced to only six months in jail for a minor charge. If each betrays the other, each receives a five-year sentence. Each prisoner must choose to betray the other or to remain silent. Each one is assured that the other would not know about the betrayal before the end of the investigation. How should the prisoners act?

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Honor among thieves = 6 months.
Sucker's deal = 10 years for the honorable.
LOSERS = 5 years.

Honor, ethics, morality etc. are a cooperative deal which exists to benefit both parties. That's the reason to choose your company carefully.

When we say "real men protect women" -- yes, it's shame & manipulation -- but it's also how we enforce a civil society, where women can leave the house with a degree of safety. When women are safe, they can attend school and contribute to society (education, health, pour coffee, build rockets, etc.). This makes our society stronger as a whole, even if some guys can't manage to avoid being manipulated by some *****.

If you're too naive to discriminate, you're going to get burned. Being against honor on principle is missing the point.

The rewards of honor.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p3Uos2fzIJ0

Honour is just another way of keeping you a slave.

Integrity, Honor, Loyalty= Dead at a young age and no pussvy.

Women recognize only a few things; Looks, money, charisma, confidence, selfishness, and the best of all; a fiery, edgy side that bows to no one...
The guys who have honor, integrity, and loyalty are burried at Arlington National Cemetary and other military cemetaries around the world. They never got a chance to even be with a woman. And I think that everytime you strike out with a girl, you should think about that. At least you are alive to try.

Nutz said:

I've said this before, but I'll say it once again:

Honor
Loyalty
Integrity

These three qualities are masculine traits. From early childhood males are inundated with social programming to embrace them, and females simply are not. Sure women may hold them in high esteem when they think things through, but when the rubber meets the road, when emotions override logic, women are simple incapable of following through with their ideals with regard to the above qualities. This is why there is no female equivalent of "bros before hos" and why these traits are wholly MASCULINE traits.

Now whether or not men should give them up and be more like women and do what they want when they want is another argument entirely.

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I agree wholeheartedly that honor is a masculine trait.

Great example of how only men have a code such as: 'Bros before hos.' Female friendships are paper-thin.

Now, should men give up honor and be more like women? Well you just answered your own question.

Should men ever give up their masculine values to be more like women?

Of course not.

Jesus Christ subscribed to: 'turn the other cheek' (i.e. don't stoop to the level of girls who lack honor)

But Jesus was definitely not a push-over. He often got into fights with the teachers of the law.


So you essentially have 3 choices

Be an AFC and blindly follow honor, not really for honor's sake, but thinking that being all chivalrous will you get you girls

Be a seducer and throw away honor and your manhood so you can score some extra sex

Be a man - believe in honor, not to get girls, but for your own sake, for your own manhood. If you truly believe in honor for it's own sake then it's impossible for you to screwed over by girls trying to manipulate you for it.

Because the 1st rule of honor, is to honor yourself.

Trader said:

So you essentially have 3 choices

Be an AFC and blindly follow honor, not really for honor's sake, but thinking that being all chivalrous will you get you girls

Be a seducer and throw away honor and your manhood so you can score some extra sex

Be a man - believe in honor, not to get girls, but for your own sake, for your own manhood. If you truly believe in honor for it's own sake then it's impossible for you to screwed over by girls trying to manipulate you for it.

Because the 1st rule of honor, is to honor yourself.

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Well said-

However, you may have a tough time convincing some of the 'DJs' here that discarding honor is unmanly. They hold the opposite view.

Trader said:

Be a man - believe in honor, not to get girls, but for your own sake, for your own manhood. If you truly believe in honor for it's own sake then it's impossible for you to screwed over by girls trying to manipulate you for it.

Because the 1st rule of honor, is to honor yourself.

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Trader,

This is on point and the only definition of honor worth having. Thank you.

Tictac

Agreed. Honor gets a bad rep around here, STR8UP was it's greatest antagonist.

But I think of it this way: STR8UP was always talking about business ventures and the like. Do you think he was so eager to disclose his lack of honor to the men he sought to do business with?

Something to think about.

Agreed. Honor gets a bad rep around here, STR8UP was it's greatest antagonist.

But I think of it this way: STR8UP was always talking about business ventures and the like. Do you think he was so eager to disclose his lack of honor to the men he sought to do business with?

Something to think about.

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I guess really what STR* wasw trying to say, is that, honor per se exist as a concept, but in TODAY society, a man has nothing to gain on being honored when it comes to the mating game.
In fact, I think what he said is that, not being honored would best serve a man.